Truck Beds & Passengers

[glossyp]

Re: Truck Beds & Passengers

Craig, just curious...are you referring only to the lifestyle choice of riding in the back of a pick-up truck? If you're referring to lifestyle choices in general, how does one explain the deaths of innocent people who are appropriately belted in their vehicles but are hit and killed by drag racing kids?

One could argue that riding in a car at all is a lifestyle choice - pretty much everything we do could be described as a lifestyle choice. Thus, when we die or bad things happen to us it's always due to a lifestyle choice. A quite convenient philosophy.

[pzarquon]

Re: Truck Beds & Passengers

I've seen pickup trucks with built in seating areas with belts. Presumably, though, this adds to the cost of the truck and/or limits the usable space of the bed for cargo. Of course, mandatory seat belts and air bags in cars were also contested by manufacturers for being too costly.

By the way, drawing comparisons with other vehicles and scenarios is one way to pick through this debate. On the points related to buses and military convoys, though, there's more involved than just the configuration of the vehicle itself.

Whether or not they're designed well, for example, buses are designed for the specific and single purpose of transporting a large number of people. We also hope bus drivers are specifically trained for that scenario. (The reality, of course, is not quite so neat and tidy.) And military applications and activities are, IMHO, a completely different world than civilian - the people in a convoy signed up for what they're doing, are trained to do it, and frankly deal with a whole fleet of risks that dwarf the question of whether their Humvee's have sufficient passenger restraints.

A ban, as discussed here, seems clearly targeted at civillian -- commercial and personal -- trucks. Vehicles designed for cargo, being used to carry passengers, operated by people with no specific training or specialized license.

But yes, maybe the farmer in Waianae can only afford one vehicle for his family and his produce. Maybe the farm in Kaneohe can only afford one vehicle for his employees and his products. A blanket solution is inherently going to create more problems. The question is, are the lives saved worth the practical challenges a ban would introduce.

Like I said from the start, I'm undecided on this issue. I also don't think that having the conversation qualifies as "blaming the victim" in the specific case that prompted it, but I guess I'm in the minority.

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Truck Beds & Passengers

That's not a fair assessment (referring an earlier post by Tutusue) to because in a car with seatbelts at least there was design in protecting the occupants and the car is used appropriately. Carrying passengers in the bed of a truck is not considered appropriate use of that vehicle. As for drag racing if it's the sport of drag racing on sanctioned race tracks with approved safety gear with the risks of accident well yes that's their lifestyle choice as well but the difference is that in a race track there are implied risks that one takes just like boxing (getting hit in the head), baseball (getting hit in the head) and any other risky sport or behavior.

But at least you understand the risks and limit the range of risk to the approved aspect of that undertaking by taking the precautions of protecting yourself. Riding in the back of a pickup truck without safety harnesses, or approved seating/grab handles is not taking those safety precautions of protecting one's self.

Drag racing on public streets is an entirely different scenerio. Those idiots although having the safety harrnesses to protect themselves miss the one unknown factor, the fact that the race track they choose to risk their lives on wasn't designed for that kind of driving nor the obsticles they will encounter like a tree or another car not with the same intentions of racing. In that case there are victims that never made that choice. However you cannot compare that kind of accident to the sheer fact that riding recklessly will eventually catch up to you. Innocent properly protected passengers are true victims, improperly seated passengers share the burden of guilt simply because they didn't exercise enough caution when they chose to ride that way.

When I mean lifestyles I refer to an earler post in this thread regarding the way families transport their family because they cannot afford another vehicle to carry their occupants safely. They choose a lifestyle that doesn't allow the luxury of an approved passenger vehicle.

Never mind the fact that those involved in this latest accident were victims, the fact that they were riding in a vehicle in a section NOT APPROVED FOR PASSENGERS was their mistake. Did they have a choice? Who knows but unless someone forced them into the truck they had the choice of refusing to ride.

I hopped out of my friend's VW Bug 40-miles out on an interstate in a freezing Idaho winter because I chose not to ride along with four drunken pals. "I'd rather be alive than be a statistic" I told them as I left them and walked the rest of the way home. I caught up with them about a half hour later as they were stopped by a state trooper. Yeah I chose my lifestyle and that wasn't to be one of them. That cop probably saved their lives.

Like I said before, there is no arguement for riding in the back of a pick up truck. You can make all the comparisons you want but the fact remains, those women would be alive had they not been sitting where they were. That's a fact and if a law was established before hand maybe JUST MAYBE their lives would have been spared.

It doesn't take a law for me to exercise common sense but for some laws are needed because not all of us have that ability to think cognatively. No those women never imagined an idiot would kill them but then again the driver should have swerved right into the shoulder instead of left...right into the path of an oncoming vehicle, but that's another arguement.

Regardless...if they weren't in the bed of that truck they would probably be still alive just ask the driver and the front passenger of that truck that did survive because they were in appropriate passenger seating. Facts are facts and in this case, these facts were DEAD right.

[tutusue]

Re: Truck Beds & Passengers

That's not a fair assessment (referring an earlier post by Tutusue)[...]

If you're referring to my post #29, it wasn't an assessment. I asked a question...which you eventually answered further down your post #33 which I snipped for the sake of bandwidth!

[LikaNui]

Re: Truck Beds & Passengers

If you're referring to my post #29, it wasn't an assessment. I asked a question...which you eventually answered further down your post #33 which I snipped for the sake of bandwidth!

Tutu, did you happen to miss post #26?

[Adri]

Re: Truck Beds & Passengers

I'm ambivalent about banning riders in the backs of trucks. I have really fond memories of riding in the back of trucks with my family when I was growing up (at a time when we could still stop by the roadside to pick wild guava and plums and stuff and hop out to pick opihi and hop back in and not worry about the salt water and sand). I understand the rationale for banning children and unrestrained animals from riding in the backs of trucks but am kinda sad that it's another thing from my kid-time days that my younger family members won't get to experience.

[tutusue]

Re: Truck Beds & Passengers

Tutu, did you happen to miss post #26?

Nah...I didn't miss it! I didn't really have a reply altho' I did wonder who that lady nut case might be!

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Truck Beds & Passengers

At the very least, I would like to see the ban go into effect for all minors, and no seating in the back w/o a camper shell on.

[craigwatanabe]

Re: Truck Beds & Passengers

At least require all bed passengers to have adequate protection from being thrown out. My oldest boy's friend died on the North Shore several years ago when he was riding in the bed of a friend's pickup truck when he apparently lost his hat. In an effort to get it as it flew off his head he fell out of the moving truck and died.

Speed isn't a factor it's just that if there's nothing to keep you from being tossed around let alone out of a truck bed as it rounds a bend or hits a bump in the road or even hard acceleration or braking...physics will demand that your mass will continue to move.

Tutusue I was referring to your comment about street drag racing. These idiots are doing something very risky from the start...driving in the bed of a truck can be safe if nothing else happens but the fact is it doesn't take much to make an uneventful ride in the back of a pickup truck turn fatal as in my boy's friend. His hat simply blew off and in reaching out he let go of the truck rails and bounced out. Yeah he probably wasn't seated correctly but then again because there aren't any DOT approved seating, it doesn't matter, sitting any which way in that bed with no safety precautions is not correct seating.

All I'm saying is that if you're gonna ride in the back of a truck do it in a safe way and that's to put the kinds of hardware that will keep you inside the bed instead of being thrown out. Until truck manufacturers come up with something to protect it's bed riders, a law may be necessary to protect those who choose not to protect themselves from injury or death.

I can imagine that most truck manufacturers owners manuals stipulate that riding in the bed of a truck removes them from certain liabilities regarding wrongful death situations.

Hey this is common sense here not anything else. Would you place your own children in the bed of a truck let alone your loved ones knowing at any time they could be thrown to their deaths because of some unforseen act upon the vehicle? If not then why advocate allowing anyone to ride in the bed of a truck? It's simply not safe at any speed. You can compare this to any other high risk behavior but it won't change the fact that it's dangerous and deadly. I see a lot of people doing stupid things that endanger their lives and the lives around them, that doesn't diminish the dangers of what we are talking about here.

I stand by my position that riding in the bed of a truck should be banned period. Four women would be alive today if it were.

[timkona]

Re: Truck Beds & Passengers

Is there an all-out manhunt for the speeding idiot who caused this whole tragedy?

I have a brand new rope to lend.

[glossyp]

Re: Truck Beds & Passengers

I stand by my position that riding in the bed of a truck should be banned period. Four women would be alive today if it were.

I appreciate the clarity of your opinion but I do not agree. Four women would be alive today and eight others would not be in hospital if one single individual had not broken an existing law. You can frame the argument anyway you like but the fact remains that their deaths were caused by careless and criminal behavior. I just do not believe we can legislate our way to a perfect world where nothing bad ever happens. And, yes, I am willing to accept the risk and attendant personal responsibility in exchange for any number of freedoms.

[zztype]

Re: Truck Beds & Passengers

Please note that the person who caused the death and destruction was probably safely seat-belted and air-bagged while he ignored laws designed for safety and overtook vehicles in a double-line, no passing zone. I doubt that this safe (and still alive) individual was observing the posted speed limits, either.

[D'Alani]

Re: Truck Beds & Passengers

[I stand by my position that riding in the bed of a truck should be banned period. Four women would be alive today if it were.[/QUOTE]

Would this also include all those soldiers you see on the Freeways riding behind those "troop mover" type trucks? Although there are benches I don't see any of them wearing seat belts.

[kimo55]

Re: Truck Beds & Passengers

I stand by my position that riding in the bed of a truck should be banned period. Four women would be alive today if it were.

wellll.... banning something does not ever prevent each and every instance of it from ever happening again.


Pakalolo use is banned. Do you think people don't smoke it anymore cuz it's banned? back a while ago, just before prohibition, we probably heard "I stand by my position that drinking any liquor in a bar or home, should be banned period. Four women would be sober today if it were."


did that prevent people from drinking?

It is personal accountability that prevents people from riding DANE-gerously in backs of truck. (i wouldn't ride on the edge of the gate nor above the wheel well which i see some do...) and personal responsibility and accountability which may prevent people from driving recklessly. Which I hear a rumor, there may be some kinda ban on that, too. But that don't mean sheeyit, do it.



Also, why no campaign to ban cigarettes? I do believe a few more than just four women would be alive if cancerstix were banned. They would STILL smoke, but less would smoke, sure... So why not lance at that windmill?

[tutusue]

Re: Truck Beds & Passengers

Craig, you always post extremely well thought out and articulate information and rebuttals. And I can certainly understand where your beliefs are coming from. If I thought for even a minute that enacting a law that would make it illegal for anyone to ride in the back of a truck would eliminate future deaths, I'd agree with you. As others have already noted, the existing no passing and 35mph zones didn't stop the 'murderer' (my word) from breaking those laws.

If anything good can come out of this tragic, Kunia accident, hopefully it's the stark realization that unsafe driving...be it speeding, passing on a 2 lane road or riding unsecured in the bed of a pick-up truck can kill. Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, I doubt that the accident will have any long term, positive affects.

Since seeing the photo of the pick-up truck I can't help but wonder if strong netting secured over the opening above the tail gate might've prevented the deaths. But, I keep going back to the down and dirty cause of this tragedy...the elusive driver of the sedan who willingly chose...a lifestyle choice, if you will...to try to pass a line of cars by accelerating above the speed limit in a lane of oncoming cars and in a no passing zone.

I love the beautiful drive along Kunia Rd. The last time I made that drive (always during the day...never at night) was last November, on my way to the No. Shore. While I never felt in danger I did see passing and speeding that caused me to say to myself..."Self? Don't ever take Kunia Rd. again. Better to drive half way into town and backtrack on the H-2 instead."! On the way home to Makaha that same night I took the H-2 to the H-1. I was passed by drag racers on both freeways. I mentioned to my friends when I left the No. Shore that my biggest concern was Farrington Hwy. That turned out not to be a problem at all.

My personal reaction to that accident was to start rethinking the idea of getting another car...not because mine is 18 years old (and runs great!!!) but, rather, to get a car with air bags.