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**waioli kai** · April 8, 2007, 01:55 PM

Re-education of Hawai'ians? , Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

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-- ' Could it be because you are a typical conceited haole more concerned about “putting people in their place” then “taking appropriate action? ' -- TuNnL

--- Racist remarks -- by anybody -- do absolutely nothing to further anyone's cause and have absolutely no place on Hawaii Threads. ---LNui

Lika Nui, why not get beyond your accusations, incriminations and condemnations of evolving Hawai'i culture and ideology: Spell it out again or provide a link or something to those of us who have missed getting the crux of your point regarding your sense of what constitutes "race", "racism" and whether or not you think you personally are, think of yourself as, and/or should be considered, "haole" by those who are of Hawai'ian heritage and/or cultural persuasion.

What upsets you so much about TuNnL's use of the phrase "typical conceited haole" ? Do you deny that you are one and/or that, by definition, there exists "typical conceited haole" of any race but Hawai'ian race, therefore, xenophobia must be the dreaded, when not 'Evil', affliction infecting those of Hawai'i (verses those, including yourself, of Hawaii--without okina). Do you believe it would help your cause if people of Hawai'i mentality were identified and reeducated...at Hawai'ians own expense, of course?

**Leo Lakio** · April 8, 2007, 02:54 PM

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

It's quite simple.

Any time you use the word "typical" to describe a behavior or belief that you attribute to members of any particular racial group, that is racist behavior - no matter how small or relatively harmless.

It's not necessary, in this case, to take this thread into one of the many discussions of the etymology of the term "haole" - the context was clear.

**waioli kai** · April 8, 2007, 03:01 PM

Special Privileges: Unaccountability, Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

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--"We don't need no friggin special priviledges(sic) . That's what I've been saying.-- timkona;139614

--Hey Waioli, wasn't me who made the special priveledges(sic) quote. -- tkona

The sentence to which you refer in your 12:47pm post exists in your post without any citation and you say that you have been saying the sentence: "That's what I've been saying."

Are you alleging that contrary to what you wrote, and, in spite of your non-existent citation for the sentence during your employment of the sentence [which citation would have dispelled any notion that you did , as you wrote that you did, say such words] that you did not in fact say (or write) such words prior to your first putting such words in your 12:47pm post today?

By the way, Mililani's "We" is not the same as timkona's 'We'; the latter, compared to Hawai'ians, whether he admits or not, does greatly benefit from US America's historical socio-economic, special privileges afforded non-Hawai'ians connected to the CONUS system of material/capital wealth acquisition and retention.

When does behavior/attitude/ideology become recognized as being "typical"? Only when 100% of the subects in question 'fill the bill' ? Does a simple majority (51%?) make something "typical"? Time for a little objectivity, no? How about a dictionary definition of typical:

Websters: 1 : constituting or having the nature of a type : SYMBOLIC
2 a : combining or exhibiting the essential characteristics of a group <typical suburban houses> b : conforming to a type <a specimen typical of the species>
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Wordsmyth: Synonyms
representative (6) , classic (2) , illustrative
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Websters 1828: TYP'ICAL, a. Emblematic; figurative; representing something future by a form,model or resemblance. Abraham's offering of his only son Isaac, was typical of the sacrifice of Christ. The brazen serpent was typical of the cross.
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Encarta: typ·i·cal

1. representative: having all or most of the characteristics shared by others of the same kind and therefore suitable as an example of it
a typical small Midwestern town
typical of life in Victorian England

2. characteristic: characteristic of an individual person or thing
He evaded the question with typical dexterity.

3. as bad or annoying as usual: in accordance with your worst expectations ( informal )
That's just typical! There's never a cab when you want one.

4. biology resembling others in taxonomic group: describes an organism, species, or genus that has most of the characteristics that identify the larger taxonomic group to which it belongs

[Early 17th century. < medieval Latin typicalis < late Latin typicus < Greek tupikos < tupos "blow, impression"]

wkai: I'd say that the word "typical" is not understood by most objective folks to be 100% inclusive of a whole that is made up of groups and leaves a sound comfort zone for groups within a whole who are exceptions to that which may be deemed by one to be "typical".

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**Leo Lakio** · April 8, 2007, 04:46 PM

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

I did not say the use of "typical" meant "100 percent." That is your own interpretation.

Contrary to the anecdotal tales of any individuals, I'd like to see any particular piece of scientific research that proves "conceit" on the part of "a simple majority" of "haoles," thus justifying use of the word "typical."

**LikaNui** · April 8, 2007, 04:50 PM

Re: Re-education of Hawai'ians? , Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

Originally posted by waioli kai View Post

Lika Nui, why not get beyond your accusations, incriminations and condemnations of evolving Hawai'i culture and ideology

Okay, you -- who keeps asking for citations -- are hereby challenged to find even one single instance where I have EVER done what you're falsely accusing me of.
Are you humane and/or intelligent enough to apolgize, or will you simply prove beyond doubt that you are nothing more than an internet 'troll'?
(And by the way, your incessant font changes are not creative. Like yourself, they're merely annoying.)

What upsets you so much about TuNnL's use of the phrase "typical conceited haole"?

ANY racism, by any person, is grossly offensive to the vast majority of the world. Racism is merely a clear sign of stupidity.
Carry on.

**Keanu** · April 8, 2007, 06:51 PM

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

Originally posted by LikaNui View Post

Racist remarks -- by anybody -- do absolutely nothing to further anyone's cause and have absolutely no place on Hawaii Threads.

Oh give me a friggin break. There was nothing racist about TNL's remarks.

**Miulang** · April 8, 2007, 07:32 PM

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

If we agree that the kanaka maoli were the first settlers of Hawai'i, then the definition of "indigenous people" applies to them:

Indigenous Peoples are concerned with preserving land, protecting language and promoting culture. Some Indigenous Peoples strive to preserve traditional ways of life, while others seek greater participation in the current state structures. Like all cultures and civilizations, Indigenous Peoples are always adjusting and adapting to changes in the world. Indigenous Peoples recognize their common plight and work for their self-determination; based on their respect for the earth.

...all Indigenous Peoples have one thing in common - they all share a history of injustice. Indigenous Peoples have been killed, tortured and enslaved. In many cases, they have been the victims of genocide. They have been denied the right to participate in governing processes of the current state systems. Conquest and colonization have attempted to steal their dignity and identity as indigenous peoples, as well as the fundamental right of self-determination.

This is the definition used by the United Nations:

As defined by the United Nations Special Rapporteur to the Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities, Indigenous communities, peoples and nations are

…those which having a historical continuity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies that developed on their territories, consider themselves distinct from other sectors of societies now prevailing in those territories, or parts of them. They form at present non-dominant sectors of society and are determined to preserve, develop, and transmit to future generations their ancestral territories, and their ethnic identity, as the basis of their continued existence as peoples, in accordance with their own cultural patterns, social institutions and legal systems.

(Martinez-Cobo, 1984)

Miulang

**TuNnL** · April 8, 2007, 10:12 PM

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post

When you use a phrase like TuNnL's unfortunate words quoted above, it's as racist as saying "all Hawaiians (insert behavior or belief here.)"

Leo, as much as I like you and agree with you on many things, I must correct your inaccurate statement that the phrase I used was racist (though it has been used that way in pidgin English which I rarely employ). Hawaiian is not necessarily a racial term either, though it can refer to a member of the kanaka maoli race.

FYI: Haole, in the Hawaiian language, means "foreign" or "foreigner"; it can be used in reference to people, plants, and animals. -- Wikipedia

Originally posted by LikaNui View Post

Racist remarks -- by anybody ... have absolutely no place on Hawaii Threads.

I’m assuming also that LikaNui is also equating my use of the word haole with racism. I’m glad I could educate two people today.

Mahalo to you both for sharing your mana‘o, however I must take offense at LikaNui’s attempt to tell me what words in ‘ōlelo Hawai‘i I am allowed to use on hawaiithreads.com. If you feel that is your kuleana, I am sure Ryan would be amicable to giving you an evaluation as to your competency as a moderator on this site.

**waioli kai** · April 8, 2007, 11:23 PM

"Damned homeless and renter Hawai'ians..." =tkona , Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

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--- " ..... how come some Hawaiians don't have any (land) ?

"Just like reservations. You got some Indians that own, and some that don't.
How did the (Hawai'ian) renters get to a point where they don't own (land and house)?" --- timkona;139688

The "public" utility corporations do not rent their properties from the counties of Hawaii. All other private landowners but for churches and perhaps non-profits do pay rent to the counties of Hawaii. One need only fail to pay rent (ie, property taxes) on one's "private" property in Hawaii or any other state and one will find out who really owns the property.

**Deep Thought** · April 8, 2007, 11:53 PM

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

This is NOT exclusively directed at TuNnl, but at the discussion in general

Originally posted by TuNnL View Post

Leo, as much as I like you and agree with you on many things, I must correct your inaccurate statement that the phrase I used was racist (though it has been used that way in pidgin English which I rarely employ). Hawaiian is not necessarily a racial term either, though it can refer to a member of the kanaka maoli race.

(bold added)

Oh you stuck your foot in the bear trap this time. I guess we really know what this is all about now. Race as a class within human subdivisions is of itself anathema to discussion of overall human equality vs. the inferiority/superiority of certain genetic lineages. Time and again it has been proven that on a genetic level humans are humans, no matter where their ancestors happened to alight in the roulette wheel of global settlement. Just what makes you think that Kanaka Maoli are all one lineage (race in your benighted parlance) anyway? Prove it if you think that's the case.

Humans have been conquering humans for as long as humans have been around. What is missing in this dialog is a rationale for why the US should fly in the face of a multiple millenia of precedents and give back what was taken (other than "it was wrong", or "the UN says so", or "the [powerless] World Court says so".... boohoo, really). It's not as if a group of people's (not race mind you) ancestral homelands have not been restored before, however it is rare indeed that it has been done by the conquering country. The British Colonies are the only examples I can think of off the top of my head, but in most cases restored homelands result from the conquered power being conquered by another conquering power. Even then the reacquisition of the homeland usually comes with strings attached (do you plan on protesting that too?).

In a sad way it comforts me that the term 'haole' is more a term of raging xenophobia than racism. However, you'd be hard pressed to argue that it isn't wandering toward racism when it is more and more often applied to people of caucasian (another ridiculously broad term, but will suit my purposes here) descent. Clean up your arguments and get with the picture. The Kanaka Maoli are asking for a lot of progressiveness on the part of the US, and behaving like xenophobes and racists doesn't do much to help your argument.

The treaties and apology keep on being referenced. Read them. The treaties (as I stated before) are fluff. They promise nothing besides a favorable trading relationship. Look up "friendship" in the language of international diplomacy and you'll see how often that means "until your back is turned". As for the apology? It's non-binding and promises nothing. Heck we broke our own laws and and we said we were sorry, "Oops! Next time we'll get better legal counsel so we can conquer legitimately instead!".

There have been promises made in the past, those promises should be observed faithfully. Do not assume that some trade treaties and a toothless apology a good argument make. Being belligerent and racist damages the chances of the Kanaka Maoli favorably influencing the only entity who can make your wish come true (not the UN, not the World Court, not some moldy old trade treaties, not a toothless apology), the United States of America. Like it or not, your (and mine too) overlord.

Racism and racist laws stink. How you people can sleep at night when you spend all day lying to yourself and everyone else is beyond me.

**Keanu** · April 9, 2007, 07:18 AM

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor