What Melting Pot Groups are there?

[salmoned]

Re: What Melting Pot Groups are there?

2. Leashlaws also alerted me to Native Americans, but I'm not certain if they would be accorded a separate category or lumped in with haole, even though they are genetically closer to Asians than Europeans.

In the cited quote, you mentioned Native Americans (a common racial designator) as genetically closer to Asians (another racial designator) than Europeans (another racial designator). In actuality, any given Native American may be closer, genetically to any given European than any given Asian. Hence, your statistical 'genetically closer' racial comment is only a statistical exercise and not indicative of any real-life comparison.

I hope this fully explains my previous comment.

Race is NOT defined by genetics! In other words, if I give you a person's DNA, you cannot determine the 'race' of that person (though you may make some statistical guesses). Ethnicity, however, is defined by both race and culture.

This entire thread about melting pot 'groups' is Lewis Carrollian mental gymnastics. In an actual melting pot, the components blend into a rather homogenous alloy - and that's all I ever see, after the melting.

[Kaonohi]

Re: What Melting Pot Groups are there?

Thank you, Pua`i. Though I might disagree with some of your conclusions*, others were very enlightening!
We learn by sharing, no?

From your input I'd have to look again at my classifications, and see if I missed or misspoke (some day soon). I'm not infallible. I may get back to you on this later.

* I cannot believe in races. We are all ONE species, Homo Sapiens Sapiens, and any and all differences are the result of culture and genetic drift and/or enviornmental selection (IMNSHO). Physical characteristics are only 'skin deep,' and as such are inadequate to divide people spuriously into races - where does one race begin and another end? Is Prez Obama Black or White? Why? Race is an artificial, unscientific construct that only serves as a divisive tool.
Genetic characteristics exist, and genetic diversity is real, because nature allowed some genes to be dominant due to selective factors, and others to die out in certain populations.
I compare arbitrary racial divisions basd on appearance to different types of cats. Black cats, white cats, Siamese cats, Scottish Fold cats, Persian cats. All ONE species. All capable of interbreeding. Now, Jaguars, Lions, Cheetahs, etc., are separate species, but still "Cats."
Maybe Chimps and Gorillas and Bigfoot/Sasquatch, or Neanderthals or H. Erectus, are of a different "race," but we are one - the HUMAN race.
So our colors are different. If I get a tan do I become another race?

I know there are differing opinions on this, even differing scientific opinions. It is not yet finally resolved, but you know where I stand, FWIW.

Mahalo for your mana`o.

[Kaonohi]

Re: What Melting Pot Groups are there?

In the cited quote, you mentioned Native Americans (a common racial designator) as genetically closer to Asians (another racial designator) than Europeans (another racial designator). In actuality, any given Native American may be closer, genetically to any given European than any given Asian. Hence, your statistical 'genetically closer' racial comment is only a statistical exercise and not indicative of any real-life comparison.

I hope this fully explains my previous comment.

Race is NOT defined by genetics! In other words, if I give you a person's DNA, you cannot determine the 'race' of that person (though you may make some statistical guesses). Ethnicity, however, is defined by both race and culture.

This entire thread about melting pot 'groups' is Lewis Carrollian mental gymnastics. In an actual melting pot, the components blend into a rather homogenous alloy - and that's all I ever see, after the melting.

From your comments I think we may be more in agreement, yet not in understanding. Granted, some discrete genetic markers may cause confusion, but a complete genetic profile can show the geographical distributions caused by genetic drift.

For example: A Polish man born in the late 1800's may have epicanthic eye-folds and yellowish skin based on the fact that his great grandmother had intercourse (genetic sharing) with invading Mongolians. Is he Asian? Of course not - he is Polish, but he carries some Asian/Oriental genes. A Native American may have several genes in common, but would have more genes in common with his Mongolian ancestor.

I do not believe in the concept of "race." Yet I do believe in identification of contiguous populations. This is geographical. Native Americans is a convenient term for the inhabitants of North and South America prior to infiltration by European, Asian, Polynesian contacts, and their descendants. These are NOT racial terms, but geographical.

DNA can determine if certain traits have more likelihood of originating from one area than another, and a DNA profile cannot determine "race," (since there is no such thing as race except in our minds), but it will give indicators of geographical origins.

Our melting pot has not yet melted down, for many reasons. There is cultural resistance, parental pressures, social constraints and so much more. We call Hawai`i a "melting pot" because of the inclusion of numerous discrete cultural and geographical groups who are interbreeding. It will take thousands of years to sublime this mixture, if we can at all. Old habits die hard.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: What Melting Pot Groups are there?

Thank you, Pua`i. Though I might disagree with some of your conclusions*, others were very enlightening!
We learn by sharing, no?

From your input I'd have to look again at my classifications, and see if I missed or misspoke (some day soon). I'm not infallible. I may get back to you on this later.

* I cannot believe in races. We are all ONE species, Homo Sapiens Sapiens, and any and all differences are the result of culture and genetic drift and/or enviornmental selection (IMNSHO). Physical characteristics are only 'skin deep,' and as such are inadequate to divide people spuriously into races - where does one race begin and another end? Is Prez Obama Black or White? Why? Race is an artificial, unscientific construct that only serves as a divisive tool.
Genetic characteristics exist, and genetic diversity is real, because nature allowed some genes to be dominant due to selective factors, and others to die out in certain populations.
I compare arbitrary racial divisions basd on appearance to different types of cats. Black cats, white cats, Siamese cats, Scottish Fold cats, Persian cats. All ONE species. All capable of interbreeding. Now, Jaguars, Lions, Cheetahs, etc., are separate species, but still "Cats."
Maybe Chimps and Gorillas and Bigfoot/Sasquatch, or Neanderthals or H. Erectus, are of a different "race," but we are one - the HUMAN race.
So our colors are different. If I get a tan do I become another race?

I know there are differing opinions on this, even differing scientific opinions. It is not yet finally resolved, but you know where I stand, FWIW.

Mahalo for your mana`o.

well, mah dear, race is not a concept requiring your faith or belief. Genomes and haplo groups are what they are. Though I quite agree with your social goals of mankind all for one, one for all, facts are what they are. None escape their racial makeup; actuaries depend on it when they underwrite insurance policies because the different races have different health profiles and go into the proverbial sunset in statistically-measurable ways.

Acknowledging our racial makeup is not a sign of social ignobility; it's science.

[Peshkwe]

Re: What Melting Pot Groups are there?

I prefer the 'salad bowl' or 'stew pot' idea vs the 'melting pot' concept.

I like the different flavors and textures that come together in harmony...a little spice to play with and compliment the sweet, a little crunch to play with the tender. Each element retains it's personality yet supports and compliments the other.

Ya never cook a stew down to sludge or put a salad in a blender and still be able to call it as it is.

The 'melting pot' concept came from the idea that you blend metals together to create a stronger steel. Yet that process also calls for a dominate metal with small measured blends of other metals to become incorporated as part of the dominate....too much of the accent metal can actually weaken or corrupt the dominate metal for the use it was intended. That which is considered impure gets burned off or reduced to slag and is discarded until there is total incorporation with the dominate metal.

The melting pot concept is acceptable to the dominate culture being it incorporates the smaller less dominate cultures into it's homogony of oneness.

The salad bowl or stew is less so because the dominate culture has teach itself to play nice with the others or else it leaves a really nasty taste in your mouth.

[Kaonohi]

Re: What Melting Pot Groups are there?

well, mah dear, race is not a concept requiring your faith or belief. Genomes and haplo groups are what they are. Though I quite agree with your social goals of mankind all for one, one for all, facts are what they are. None escape their racial makeup; actuaries depend on it when they underwrite insurance policies because the different races have different health profiles and go into the proverbial sunset in statistically-measurable ways.

Acknowledging our racial makeup is not a sign of social ignobility; it's science.

Dear one, I'll agree to disagree for the moment since it's been a few years since I got my cultural/physical/anthropology diplomas, and I've been out of touch. In the '80's the current 'science' was that 'race' (as a biological concept) was an arbitrary choice of points along a continuum (species), and that ethnicity (based on culture primarily, but including biology) was more scientifically accurate - at least in social science. I think sociology, and probably human genetics, may look at it slightly differently and I don't think any of us has a track on absolute truth yet.
Actuaries are interested in the bottom line, and track tendencies, not absolutes. They USE science for BUSINESS, and use what favors them. They'll call you a Neanderthal is it saves them a nickel. And, if they 'rate' someone based on race but that person don't have that problematic gene, guess who wins?

On a related note. I used to breed cats. I was always taught that a white cat with blue eyes carried a gene for congenital deafness. Just last night I met a white can with blue eyes that could hear just fine. The exception proves the rule.

I respect your position and I'm still young enough to learn. It'll take me some time to examine your position; I value your input.

I do agree that "None escape their racial makeup," but what is race? How many races are there and how is that determined? What discrete factors determine your racial makeup? Rhetorical questions, unless you have answers, of course.

Mahalo

[Mahi Waina]

Re: What Melting Pot Groups are there?

It wasn't until I lived in Hawaii that I could tell many Asian ethnicities apart; now I can usually tell if someone is Korean, Filipino, Chinese or Japanese.

I am curious if non-caucasians can make distinctions between Europeans, such as Irish from German, which is easy, or close ones like Polish and Russian which is hard.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: What Melting Pot Groups are there?

I prefer the 'salad bowl' or 'stew pot' idea vs the 'melting pot' concept.
---
The melting pot concept is acceptable to the dominate culture being it incorporates the smaller less dominate cultures into it's homogony of oneness.

The salad bowl or stew is less so because the dominate culture has teach itself to play nice with the others or else it leaves a really nasty taste in your mouth.

I had often heard it said that Hawai`i is more of a "plate lunch" than a "melting pot" --- but I like your version, because of your last sentence.

[Peshkwe]

Re: What Melting Pot Groups are there?

I had often heard it said that Hawai`i is more of a "plate lunch" than a "melting pot" --- but I like your version, because of your last sentence.

I could see that applying to a plate lunch too. Everything still has to play nice together or ya come away with a belly ache.

[Kaonohi]

Re: What Melting Pot Groups are there?

I could see that applying to a plate lunch too. Everything still has to play nice together or ya come away with a belly ache.

These are all interesting perspectives.
In our quest for understanding we can use old bridges as well as make new ones.
After all, this is US we're talking about!
Although professional labels/descriptions/etc., help in identification it is also important for we participants to do some self-definition.

Who am I? (Kinda chop-suey, but...) I've got so many ethnicities I must be a citizen of Earth, and my race must be ... Earthian!
Caucasian (French, Polish), Polynesian (Tahiti), Asian (Mongolian).
So, what "race" am I? I think I got that belly-ache.

But, what does it matter?

[Peshkwe]

Re: What Melting Pot Groups are there?

The problem in your initial set of parameters are flawed and as such you will be gleaning flawed outcomes. You've mixed race with ethnicity/culture or are misrepresenting one as the other.

For example your first two category statements:

Hawaiians: Anyone with any Hawaiian blood at all, down to 1/32nd quantum, by their own (individual, not group) definition.

Locals: People born and bred in the islands, brought up in the local culture, may or may not have Hawaiian blood. Often includes immigrant groups brought in for plantation labor, such as Portuguese and Filipino.

The first would be considered an racial group, the second an ethnic/cultural group...or more accurately a sub-cultural group, because the folks considered 'locals' may still have their own cultural identity and gravitate to that as a primary identifier over 'local'.


If someone took a Korean infant, born from Korean parents in Korea and gave it to a Swahili family in Africa to love and raise as their own child.

That child when grown would still be racially Korean, but culturally would be Swahili.

[Kaonohi]

Re: What Melting Pot Groups are there?

The problem in your initial set of parameters are flawed and as such you will be gleaning flawed outcomes. You've mixed race with ethnicity/culture or are misrepresenting one as the other.

For example your first two category statements:

The first would be considered an racial group, the second an ethnic/cultural group...or more accurately a sub-cultural group, because the folks considered 'locals' may still have their own cultural identity and gravitate to that as a primary identifier over 'local'.

If someone took a Korean infant, born from Korean parents in Korea and gave it to a Swahili family in Africa to love and raise as their own child.

That child when grown would still be racially Korean, but culturally would be Swahili.

Perhaps, and guilty as charged!
I asked about "Melting pot groups" not specifying race, ethnicity, culture, et al. Just groups: people who bond as a group for whatever reason, and separate themselves from other groups for the same reasons.

I was fishing. Got some interesting bites. I consider all of them as valid... perceptions.

Still - what is race? Where are the lines? Is it merely genetic? If so, there are no established "racial" genetic markers, just tendencies.
I have epicanthic eye folds due to my 1/32 Mongolian heritage, and wide thick nostrils due to my Polynesian heritage. And light skin because of my French/Polish heritage.

Oh, yeah, and attitude due to my American influence....

I'm interested in groups: self-limiting, selective groups based on cultural identity. In the long run, it is cultural ID which will define you on the street (where it counts), genetic ID will be too little, too late.

Thanks for your input; this is a discussion, not an argument. I'm trying to concatinate all this info, but I WILL need time.

K

[Barry]

Re: What Melting Pot Groups are there?

Melting Pot

There must be every Race inside my body. The Brits were ovetaken by vikings, romans,,, etc.

Although born in England, I was brought up in France and so this is my second language.

I have worked in many parts of the world, including Hawaii but have never taken the food out of the mouthes of the locals.

So,,,,, I am part English, Irish, I am multi-lingual but fall back to French after a few drinks. What does it matter ?

We are people and this is our life - - - Not a feckin rehearsal. Up to us to get on ?

[salmoned]

Re: What Melting Pot Groups are there?

What does it matter? Probably not much anymore, since we've long ago overthrown the law of life in our world-wide civilization and thereby doomed it to a willful and self-driven catastrophe. However, it matters a great deal if we ever wish to return to the fold, embrace that original law and continue on the path all other earthly cultures and species tread. That alternate path is, of course, currently known as 'natural selection'.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: What Melting Pot Groups are there?

But, what does it matter?

I think that's the most important question in the entire discussion, Kaonohi. And everyone will have a different answer, and every answer will be correct.