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  #1  
Old September 6th, 2005, 04:00 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Is HawaiiThreads.com too mean?

Just a personal observation: why are the people on this forum more mean-spirited than another forum to which I belong (and am a moderator for) that has Hawai'i expats as its primary audience? If there really is harmony in Hawai'i, why does this forum not reflect that? Why are people being criticized for honestly sharing their opinions? Just because you might not agree with what's being said, you don't have to write wimpy, sarcastic comments when you decide that a post should be rated negatively (or rate and run with no reason why). That certainly doesn't tell the receiver of the comment anything about how to improve (and telling the person his opinion is crap isn't a fair critique as far as I'm concerned). I believe this is still a relatively "free" country and that people are entitled to their own opinions. I judge a post for its content, and certainly not for niggly things like spelling, and not necessarily if I agree with the opinions stated or not.

BTW: The other forum doesn't allow for reputation points, which I'm sure the Admins could have instituted if they wanted to. Maybe that's why that forum is more mellow than this one.

Miulang
  #2  
Old September 6th, 2005, 04:06 PM
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Glen Miyashiro Glen Miyashiro is offline
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Default Re: Reputation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miulang
Just a personal observation: why are the people on this forum more mean-spirited than another forum to which I belong (and am a moderator for) that has Hawai'i expats as its primary audience? If there really is harmony in Hawai'i, why does this forum not reflect that?
Because there isn't. And as much as you and your expat friends may want to believe otherwise, Hawai‘i is not somehow exempt from human vice and frailty. You can romanticize your ex-home and moan about how much better it was in the old days all you like, but we live here and we can be bitchy if we feel like it. Deal.

Quote:
I believe this is still a relatively "free" country and that people are entitled to their own opinions. I judge a post for its content, and certainly not for niggly things like spelling, and not necessarily if I agree with the opinions stated or not.
Yes, people are entitled to their opinions. And if my opinion is that somebody's misspellings and poor grammar make them look sloppy and kusai online, then I am free to say so.
  #3  
Old September 6th, 2005, 04:15 PM
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Default Re: Reputation?

I wouldn't want this forum to be the spitting image of another message board. I love that you can go to different places for different personalities, different mixes, different opinions. If all you get out of HawaiiThreads.com is "mean-spirited," then maybe it's not the forum for you. I'm okay with that.

I browse many, many other message boards - Hawaii-related and otherwise - and can certainly agree that you can often get more heated discussions here on HawaiiThreads.com than you might at Hawaii.com or Ohana Lanai. Then again, there are message boards that are like the Wild West, with rampant flames and more topic drift than topics.

I think HawaiiThreads.com is just right: enough aloha to remind you why you love Hawaii, enough skepticism and healthy debate so you see all sides (rather than get overwhelmed with smilies and hugs), and a mix of madness and moderation so you have fun, but still know where to go for what. Closer to the realHawaii, not just the one you imagine when you're badly missing, or dreaming of visiting, the islands.

I know the reputation system is seen as everything from pointless to amusing to horrible and annoying. It's a pity it's not used only for good, but hell, the same can be said for the actual messages people are posting. It just adds another dimension to what goes on here, commentary on the commentary, for better or worse... and it's just another way in which this forum is different from others.

You're not forced to participate, or even care. Other boards use poor reputation as a throttle against posting and good reputation as an opportunity for more power. I don't plan on doing that here.

Hey, Scrivener has a sixth, extra shiny green chicklet. Surely the system has to be doing something right!
  #4  
Old September 6th, 2005, 04:20 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Reputation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glen Miyashiro
Because there isn't. And as much as you and your expat friends may want to believe otherwise, Hawai‘i is not somehow exempt from human vice and frailty. You can romanticize your ex-home and moan about how much better it was in the old days all you like, but we live here and we can be bitchy if we feel like it. Deal.

Yes, people are entitled to their opinions. And if my opinion is that somebody's misspellings and poor grammar make them look sloppy and kusai online, then I am free to say so.
C'mon, Glen. I know you visit that other site (seen you there). What's the diff between that site and HT? We have locals who visit that site. Sometimes stuff gets kusai and sloppy (especially with the pidgin because there's no correct way to spell in pidgin) but nobody makes a big deal about it. Everybody who's ever lived in Hawai'i knows that Hawaii is not Nirvana. It's just when "visitors" to HT see the sniping, etc. it doesn't give a very nice picture of the islands. You can say that "that's reality" but man, what ever happened to courtesy and kindness? Why is it only "my way or the highway?" What happened to the spirit of ohana and aloha? Why not call HT "LA threads" or something else. What was Ryan's original intent when he started this forum?

Miulang
  #5  
Old September 6th, 2005, 04:22 PM
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Glen Miyashiro Glen Miyashiro is offline
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Default Re: Reputation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by admin
I think HawaiiThreads.com is just right: enough aloha to remind you why you love Hawaii, enough skepticism and healthy debate so you see all sides (rather than get overwhelmed with smilies and hugs), and a mix of madness and moderation so you have fun, but still know where to go for what. Closer to the realHawaii, not just the one you imagine when you're badly missing, or dreaming of visiting, the islands.
I agree, which is why although I drop in on Hawaii.com and Ohana Lanai, and even still occasionally that Usenet newsgroup whose initials are ess-cee-aitch (don't wanna attract you-know-who via Google), HawaiiThreads is my favored hangout.

Quote:
Hey, Scrivener has a sixth, extra shiny green chicklet. Surely the system has to be doing something right!
Yup.
  #6  
Old September 6th, 2005, 04:26 PM
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Glen Miyashiro Glen Miyashiro is offline
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Default Re: Reputation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miulang
C'mon, Glen. I know you visit that other site (seen you there). What's the diff between that site and HT?
It's a different focus. You guys over there have mostly all left the islands; over here we mostly still live here. It makes a big difference in how we view Hawai‘i and everything about it.

Quote:
We have locals who visit that site. Sometimes stuff gets kusai and sloppy (especially with the pidgin because there's no correct way to spell in pidgin) but nobody makes a big deal about it.
I'm not talking about pidgin; I write pidgin too. I'm talking about English. Like scrivener, I'm one of those guys who gets annoyed by bad spelling and grammar. Different subject.

Quote:
Everybody who's ever lived in Hawai'i knows that Hawaii is not Nirvana. It's just when "visitors" to HT see the sniping, etc. it doesn't give a very nice picture of the islands.
It's a real picture.

Quote:
You can say that "that's reality" but man, what ever happened to courtesy and kindness? Why is it only "my way or the highway?" What happened to the spirit of ohana and aloha? Why not call HT "LA threads" or something else. What was Ryan's original intent when he started this forum?
I believe he's going to tell you.
  #7  
Old September 6th, 2005, 04:44 PM
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Default Re: Reputation?

All right, then. Swapping my "diplomat" hat for my "personal," local boy hat here...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miulang
What's the diff between that site and HT?
Just as one example, then... The Ohana Lanai site is largely expats, trying to maintain links with Hawaii and other people in the same boat. You have a shared perspective, because you're all largely from and miss Hawaii, but are living somewhere else, trying to find the local halau, or the best approximation of sticky rice, or holding luau now and then to get that taste of home.

That sentimental affection for Hawaii is wonderful, and it sure makes me glad I never left (yet). But that close alignment in perspective certainly minimizes conflict. "Why get huhu about this and that, let's spread aloha!" The Lanai is also a very close-knit family, which also helps (although the extensive in-jokes can be off-putting). If I were stranded in Kansas, Ohana Lanai would probably be my favorite place on the web. But I'm not.

HawaiiThreads.com certainly attracts a lot of locals living away from Hawaii, but I'd say our hearts, our roots, are people who still call Hawaii home. So we both can love and hate different parts of island life. It's easy to be on the mainland and say, "You guys in Hawaii should do this," or, "You guys in Hawaii better learn from us guys up here," and another thing entirely to be living it day-to-day.
Quote:
It's just when "visitors" to HT see the sniping, etc. it doesn't give a very nice picture of the islands. You can say that "that's reality" but man, what ever happened to courtesy and kindness? Why is it only "my way or the highway?" What happened to the spirit of ohana and aloha?
Miulang, if you're honestly saying that you see no genuine warmth, no helpful spirits, no thought-provoking discussions here on HawaiiThreads.com, then I really don't know what to say. I think we've built a great community site, with great people. And what a mix! Locals and newcomers, military and civilian, even the rare, oft unseen Asian male or two! We seek and get advice, we post what we had for lunch, we debate politics, we rant and rave about the local media, we share movie reviews, we even play games now and then.

We've got a lot of "courtesy and kindness" here, and a lot of "ohana and aloha." But you know what? It certainly doesn't look like the folks who haunt HawaiiThreads.com are going to sign onto the HVCB's affiliate program and promise to only talk about hula dancers and mai tais on the beach. I expect things to get a bit colorful when the Akaka Bill or some other political or spiritual issue comes up. Or, yes, the Reputation system. We rag on the occasional local celebrity, too, just like everyone does now and then.

Sure, things can get ugly. But yet, in the very same thread where we had some of the strongest criticisms of a local celebrity, we also had the most heartfelt expressions of apologies and regret I've seen here yet. Hey, we're human.

So. I don't think there's anything askew about the "picture of the islands" visitors get from HawaiiThreads.com. I'll take our mix of ups and downs, our true believers and our skeptics, our reasoned debaters and pupule aunties, over any facade put on for the benefit of some idealized Hawaii PR image.

Frankly, if I were thinking of visiting, or moving to, Hawaii, I personally would learn more practical stuff here than I would in a cheerleading echo chamber where it's all attaboys and "go for it" and "me too!" Yeah, I'll concede, we're sometimes a little harsher on would-be residents than I'd like. But hell, if they didn't want honest opinions, they should've gone to Hawaii.com!
Quote:
Why not call HT "LA threads" or something else. What was Ryan's original intent when he started this forum?
Because we're not here to talk about L.A. As for what mission HawaiiThreads.com started with, why not check the FAQ?
  #8  
Old September 6th, 2005, 04:55 PM
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Glen Miyashiro Glen Miyashiro is offline
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Default Re: Reputation?

My honest takes on the other Hawai‘i online discussions that I have visited:

Hawaii.com - Aimed at haoles who wish they could visit Hawai‘i. Like Ryan said, too commercial and saccharine and, to be honest, naive. I don't want to spend all my time doing Hawaiian history and culture tutorials.

Ohana Lanai - Aimed at Hawai‘i expats like Miulang and Lurkah. Lots of affirmation and joking and wistful nostalgic longing. Too much goofiness and too many cute smilies for my tastes.

Hawaii Metblogs - Cool to read, but a little more extroverted than I care to be. And besides, I'm not that great of a blogger.

HawaiiStories - See Hawaii Metblogs. And sorry to say, Ryan, but comment spammers are a huge issue there.

Ess-cee-aitch - The delay caused by moderation has bogged this newsgroup down to the point where I don't care to use it. And there are a few posters there who I hope never find HawaiiThreads, because they're just plain tedious and annoying.

Alt-cee-aitch - Aaaaggghh! Run away! Run away!
  #9  
Old September 6th, 2005, 05:15 PM
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Default Re: Reputation?

Great rundown, Glen. And while I know you know this, I think it bears mentioning again that some people might want goofiness and smilies, or want wholehearted encouragement for that fantasy relocation to Hawaii, or basically a different tone and flavor than HawaiiThreads.com. And that's fine.

To each their own. I'm sure a similar summary elsewhere would have an entry: "HawaiiThreads.com - Too mean. Stupid moderator, too."

In the imaginary interests of equal time, a couple of other online communities include ForumsHawaii.net (I think you have to be under 20 to appreciate it), HawaiiForums.org (I just can't get over the DBEDT PDF on the main page). There are also active Hawaii-centered Yahoo! Groups (Hawaii, TheNewcomersOhana, Dinner Boys & Girls) and MSN groups.
Quote:
Alt-cee-aitch - Aaaaggghh! Run away! Run away!
I do miss the golden age of USENET. Those were the days...
Quote:
Cool to read, but a little more extroverted than I care to be. And besides, I'm not that great of a blogger.
FWIW, Hawaii Metblogs and HawaiiStories (or at least the main page thereof) aren't really discussion sites. Just community blogs. So you might have a conversation, but only if a member decides to post a particular topic. Part of the reason HawaiiThreads.com was created was because so many people were sending me great topics for HawaiiStories blog posts. Why not create a forum where you can start your own conversation?

And yeah, comment spam is the bane of all blogs. And really, the main page of HawaiiStories is pretty static these days. The real strength of that site has turned out to be the blogs of individual authors hosted there. Our own Lynn found her voice there, and there are a dozen other people - both local and away - enjoying an outlet for their writing.
  #10  
Old September 6th, 2005, 05:16 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Is HawaiiThreads.com too mean?

The reason I visit HT is because it IS about Hawai'i, and Hawai'i is fast becoming like the Mainland. There's a saying, "you don't know what you have until you lose it"...hence the existence of Ohanalanai and Alohaworld.com. I don't get too political over there because about the only thing the expats have in common is that we all have histories in Hawai'i.

There's another expression, "You can never go home again." Very true. Even when I move back to Hawai'i in a few years, it'll be very different even from what it is today. I acknowledge that. Change is constant. But will I have a choice about how much of it I am willing to accept? You betcha.

My favorite expression is, "travel makes the man." I think if you have the opportunity to travel away from the islands or to live somewhere other than Hawai'i for a time, your perception of Hawai'i is changed immutably. I'm afraid that the more Hawai'i moves toward becoming what the rest of the Mainland is, the less the aloha its people will have toward each other and to people from elsewhere. Do you really want to live in a mean spirited place like LA? What about Hawai'i is going to differentiate it from an LA in the future? When Kimo rants about the old architecture being replaced by steel and chrome, I get where he's coming from.

One really cool thing about most people in Hawai'i is their playfulness. Why isn't it OK to be playful on HT too? Life is too short to be critical just to be critical. For the times when serious issues arise, why is it not possible to get into an honest debate of the issues and not of the personalities expressing the opinion? When people berate others with comments of "dumb@ass" or worse, what's the purpose? To prove to yourself that you think you're better than someone else? Reminds me of a playground full of kiddies. Now if everyone could be as classy as da Scriv, then there wouldn't have to be the mean spiritedness. He's managed to rise above all of that.

Miulang
  #11  
Old September 6th, 2005, 05:29 PM
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Default Re: Is HawaiiThreads.com too mean?

I more than understand where you're coming from, Miulang. But there are issues larger than just the HawaiiThreads.com microcosm you're touching on. I still maintain that there's a lot of kokua and aloha (and some pupule and huhu) here on HawaiiThreads.com. More importantly, I certainly wouldn't use the fact that people disagree and occassionally abuse the system here - the supposed "mean-spirited" side of HawaiiThreads.com - as proof or evidence that Hawaii is going down the tubes! After all, I find a lot here that redeems my faith in my fellow island inmates.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miulang
One really cool thing about most people in Hawai'i is their playfulness. Why isn't it OK to be playful on HT too?
What? Who says we're not playful? Have you read what Lynn or Kimo have posted lately? (Just kidding, guys. You know I love you, right?) We post what we eat, we post random pictures, we post absolute non-sequiturs (albeit with a root of irony).

I might be more anal retentive about topic drift than most, and can sometimes do without excessive ridiculousness (and moderate accordingly), but again... the fact that we don't go overboard with the smileys and clip art and inside jokes is just another way we're different. Not better or worse, just different.
  #12  
Old September 6th, 2005, 05:34 PM
kimo55 kimo55 is offline
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Default Re: Is HawaiiThreads.com too mean?

Scriv is a dumb@ss.


(of course, the intelligentsia among us know I steh joking. but jeez; do ya gotta say: "eh. i am only joking"? apparently, for the thickheaded...)

Last edited by kimo55; September 6th, 2005 at 05:45 PM.
  #13  
Old September 6th, 2005, 05:36 PM
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Glen Miyashiro Glen Miyashiro is offline
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Default Re: Is HawaiiThreads.com too mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miulang
My favorite expression is, "travel makes the man." I think if you have the opportunity to travel away from the islands or to live somewhere other than Hawai'i for a time, your perception of Hawai'i is changed immutably. I'm afraid that the more Hawai'i moves toward becoming what the rest of the Mainland is, the less the aloha its people will have toward each other and to people from elsewhere.
The idea that Hawaiians placed aloha over all other values is a myth dreamed up by the HVB. I'm not gonna keep a plastic grin on my face every time a haole shows up just because I'm supposed to.

We will always have aloha for our neighbors because we're on a goddamned island. We don't really have a choice.

Quote:
One really cool thing about most people in Hawai'i is their playfulness. Why isn't it OK to be playful on HT too?
We are. Perhaps our sense of humor is too dry and restrained for your tastes.

Quote:
For the times when serious issues arise, why is it not possible to get into an honest debate of the issues and not of the personalities expressing the opinion?
We do.

Quote:
When people berate others with comments of "dumb@ass" or worse, what's the purpose? To prove to yourself that you think you're better than someone else? Reminds me of a playground full of kiddies. Now if everyone could be as classy as da Scriv, then there wouldn't have to be the mean spiritedness. He's managed to rise above all of that.
We also do that, too. But so? In an online forum like this, you can't control the behavior of others; you can only control what you do yourself. Well, unless you're a moderator or the admin.
  #14  
Old September 6th, 2005, 05:40 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Is HawaiiThreads.com too mean?

Don't get me wrong, Ryan. The majority of people on HT are friendly and really do try to get along with each other. I have personally tried to help people here in HT who have PMd me for help. "Mean-spirited" is a relative thing. But it's ironic that the type of "mean-spiritedness" that exists in small pockets in Hawai'i looks so startlingly similar to what we see up here. Is that a good or a bad thing? I dunno. It's up to each individual to decide that, I guess.

Too bad there can't be different degrees of "mean-spiritedness".

Miulang
  #15  
Old September 6th, 2005, 05:42 PM
kimo55 kimo55 is offline
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Default Re: Reputation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glen Miyashiro
My honest takes on the other Hawai‘i online discussions that I have visited:

Hawaii.com - Aimed at haoles who wish they could visit Hawai‘i. ...

as well as another we touched on:

http://www.hawaiithreads.com/showthr...ight=about.com


which basically is a buncha people who fantacise about a Hawaii visit and have a token one or two who have, whose words they worship, where they allow no outsiders into their clique, cuz they don't wanna hear the ugly truth or hear an islander say: "eh. don't come here and complain and whine about manini stuffs, and tell us how it's done on the mainland"
  #16  
Old September 6th, 2005, 05:46 PM
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Glen Miyashiro Glen Miyashiro is offline
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Default Re: Reputation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimo55
as well as another we touched on:

http://www.hawaiithreads.com/showthr...ight=about.com

which basically is a buncha people who fantacise about a Hawaii visit and have a token one or two who have, whose words they worship, where they allow no outsiders into their clique, cuz they don't wanna hear the ugly truth or hear an islander say: "eh. don't come here and complain and whine about manini stuffs, and tell us how it's done on the mainland"
Forgot about that one -- I took one look after Kimo's original comment, and wrote them off as not worth my time to visit. I guess that's what happens when you have a Hawai‘i forum in a national- or world-wide context: 99% of the posts will be from people chatting about their vacations.
  #17  
Old September 6th, 2005, 05:58 PM
kimo55 kimo55 is offline
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Default Re: Is HawaiiThreads.com too mean?

I tried to engage them in an intelligent conversation but the harsh truth was too much for them. came across with pithy insider info kinda stuff, tried to be patient and offer info, but they would have none of that. started crying;
'oh that person must be the same one that logs on and posts under many different names and then gets kicked off.'
and then they deleted all my posts.
and then they returned to their usual hallmark programming.
  #18  
Old September 6th, 2005, 06:02 PM
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Default Re: Is HawaiiThreads.com too mean?

Ah, yes, I'd almost forgotten that Hawaii.com's forums were specifically discussed earlier. A lot of that thread sounds like this one! I guess I should amend my example HawaiiThreads.com entry above to include "scary." Heh.
  #19  
Old September 6th, 2005, 06:14 PM
kimo55 kimo55 is offline
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Default Re: Is HawaiiThreads.com too mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glen Miyashiro
We are. Perhaps our sense of humor is too dry and restrained for your tastes.
OR... our sense of humor is rewarded by neg. rep points. Dunno who could say that, but I've heard it said...
  #20  
Old September 6th, 2005, 06:16 PM
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Default Re: Is HawaiiThreads.com too mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimo55
OR... our sense of humor is rewarded by neg. rep points. Dunno who could say that, but I've heard it said...
No! Who would do that?
  #21  
Old September 6th, 2005, 06:17 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Is HawaiiThreads.com too mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimo55
OR... our sense of humor is rewarded by neg. rep points. Dunno who could say that, but I've heard it said...
Oh, so you get that too, huh? "Have you eaten your prunes today?" bahahaha!

Miulang
  #22  
Old September 6th, 2005, 06:21 PM
kimo55 kimo55 is offline
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Default Re: Is HawaiiThreads.com too mean?

prunes. ugh. One food i would never eat.
  #23  
Old September 6th, 2005, 07:11 PM
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Default Re: Is HawaiiThreads.com too mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miulang
The reason I visit HT is because it IS about Hawai'i, and Hawai'i is fast becoming like the Mainland.
I visit HT for the same reason - because it's about the real Hawaii. And while it's becoming more like the mainland, there is still a lot that makes living here unique. Once you leave and spend 30+ years on the mainland, both you and the place you left will have changed. There are very few places where it feels like time is standing still.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miulang
I don't get too political over there because about the only thing the expats have in common is that we all have histories in Hawai'i.
Well, maybe if you didn't get so political over here, you wouldn't run into as many confrontations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miulang
But will I have a choice about how much of it I am willing to accept? You betcha.
Well, I'd be interested to see what kind of response you get from locals when you come back and start making pilikia. Doesn't matter if you're brown-skinned or white-skinned... if you come here with attitudes of "this is how we do it this way on the mainland" and "I've come back to my roots to change the things I think are bad," you going have problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miulang
One really cool thing about most people in Hawai'i is their playfulness. Why isn't it OK to be playful on HT too? Now if everyone could be as classy as da Scriv, then there wouldn't have to be the mean spiritedness.
Not everyone in Hawaii is playful. Go out to Waianae and see how "playful" the soles out there can be. It's also hard to judge a person's attitude and tone by a single post, which is why some of us get into disagreements on here every once in a while.

But if everyone were PC and happy-happy-joy-joy all the time, I don't think I'd come here as much. And as evidenced by the posts in this thread, there are lots of other options for those looking for that kind of sugar-coated discussion.
  #24  
Old September 6th, 2005, 07:17 PM
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Default Re: Reputation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by admin
I think HawaiiThreads.com is just right: enough aloha to remind you why you love Hawaii, enough skepticism and healthy debate so you see all sides (rather than get overwhelmed with smilies and hugs), and a mix of madness and moderation so you have fun, but still know where to go for what.
I second that opinion. Every single word of it!
  #25  
Old September 6th, 2005, 07:27 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Is HawaiiThreads.com too mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palolo Joe

Well, I'd be interested to see what kind of response you get from locals when you come back and start making pilikia. Doesn't matter if you're brown-skinned or white-skinned... if you come here with attitudes of "this is how we do it this way on the mainland" and "I've come back to my roots to change the things I think are bad," you going have problems.

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Actually, I use the information and opinions on this forum as sort of "homework" for the time that I do move back. By keeping up with things as time goes on, it'll be much easier for me to get back into the swing of things
"island style". All I have to offer are my observations about all the bad things I've seen happen up here. So as far as wanting to change things in the direction of it being more like the Mainland, I don't have that intention at all. Why would I want to move someplace where it was exactly what I could find up here, and then also have to suffer from the high cost of living to boot? One thing I do pride myself on is the ability to do research and connect the dots. I respect everybody who respects me. I especially respect indigenous people all over the earth because they, more than anything or anyone else, know where it's at, and what I hear from the people I've talked to, where it's at is not a very pretty picture.

Miulang
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