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  #126  
Old August 8th, 2006, 06:07 PM
Leo Lakio Leo Lakio is offline
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Default Re: Post that pidgin vernacular from your island!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul
True, Hawaii based pidgin was created so that different immigrant groups could speak to each other. That is not the case today. It's become more of a slang that we no longer really need to communicate.
I think we're working under different definitions, Paul. When you say "created," to me, that implies that it was intentionally developed with that communication concern in mind, by an individual or group of linguistic experts, as in the case of Esperanto. Was that what you meant to say, or am I interpreting your use of "created" inaccurately? ("Seems to me, what we have here, is a FAIL-yuh...to c'MMUNIcate.")

I thought pidgin tended to just develop in a more natural fashion, as people from different languages increased contact. Am I wrong about that? If true, then it is just continuing that organic path, and rather than being necessary for communication between different immigrants, it now becomes a bonding force among "locals."

Which may be exactly the same thing you said, I realize. Where we differ is that I don't see it as degradation, but rather, evolution - suggesting a living vibrancy that is lacking from a language such as, say, Latin.
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  #127  
Old August 8th, 2006, 06:20 PM
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Pua'i Mana'o Pua'i Mana'o is offline
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Default Re: Post that pidgin vernacular from your island!

that term "created" that Paul used is one of hindsight. Is this thread going to veer into one about the politics of language? Conclusions like
Quote:
"It's become more of a slang that we no longer really need to communicate.
are politically-charged ones. In other words, who reserves the right to tell you and me what we really need to communicate?
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  #128  
Old August 8th, 2006, 06:26 PM
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Default Re: Post that pidgin vernacular from your island!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul
It's become more of a slang that we no longer really need to communicate.
AINOKEA!

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  #129  
Old August 8th, 2006, 06:41 PM
Paul Paul is offline
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Default Re: Post that pidgin vernacular from your island!

okay okay enough with the attacks. Check out this article I found. It's not only in Hawai`i that the local people speak an unusual dialect.
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  #130  
Old August 8th, 2006, 06:48 PM
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Default Re: Post that pidgin vernacular from your island!

Attacks? What attacks? I thought we were having a pretty good discussion. In fact, one that's overly analytical by some accounts. Simply because someone disagrees with your assessment that pidgin is being "degraded" rather than evolving naturally hardly amounts to an attack.

As for "cleaning up" pidgin or other local speaking quirks in media coverage, it's something I know our dailies struggle with quite often. I definitely notice when they've made a conscious effort to reflect what was actually said, even if it's "incorrect" English. Some recent tragic stories where families are lamenting the loss of a loved one have been memorable in this way, in particular. Even though it might be confusing to a non-local reader, preserving a natural emotional utterance conveys so much more than an "edited version" would.
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  #131  
Old August 8th, 2006, 06:49 PM
Leo Lakio Leo Lakio is offline
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Default Re: Post that pidgin vernacular from your island!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul
okay okay enough with the attacks. Check out this article I found. It's not only in Hawai`i that the local people speak an unusual dialect.
Paul, I didn't mean to come across as attacking you; I differed with you on a few terms, and wanted clarification on the others.

There are many "creole" languages all around the world, of course. We've had that discussion here on HT in many forms and many forums.

So, shall we move on to any additional examples (as requested) unique to your own island or region?
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  #132  
Old August 8th, 2006, 06:53 PM
Paul Paul is offline
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Default Re: Post that pidgin vernacular from your island!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Lakio
Paul, I didn't mean to come across as attacking you; I differed with you on a few terms, and wanted clarification on the others.

There are many "creole" languages all around the world, of course. We've had that discussion here on HT in many forms and many forums.

So, shall we move on to any additional examples (as requested) unique to your own island or region?
The funny thing about pidgin is that I speak it in everyday life but have a hard time writing it. That's not the way I learned to write in school.
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  #133  
Old August 8th, 2006, 07:09 PM
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Pua'i Mana'o Pua'i Mana'o is offline
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Default Re: Post that pidgin vernacular from your island!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul
okay okay enough with the attacks. Check out this article I found. It's not only in Hawai`i that the local people speak an unusual dialect.

no, you gave us a link that speaks to journalistic practice and ethical ramifications of "cleaning up bad grammar" wrt quoting sources. The article showcases only two examples: one that has to do with singular verb spoken where the plural form should appear and the other including an example of their local dialect.

The point of the article has merit. But it is not lost upon me to note that the dialectal example is the one where the bias is evident:

"Frankly, I was a bit offended, because I am from Western North Carolina and thought that these quotes would be cleaned up by a reporter or editor under different circumstances but were used because it fits the stereotype of mountain ignorance."

"in it's defense "She said cleaning up the quotes, especially the "slam nothing" phrasing, would have drained authenticity from the story. "The speaker's voice would have been lost," she said in an e-mail. "Plus, it speaks to the lack of education that is one of the main problems in the tribe."

If your point in submitting this link is to support a belief that pidgin is substandard, unnecessary and serves little purpose, you have made it. Do not consider my response (or my previous one) an attack. It is my acknowledgement of the practice to politicize language as if one has more merit, authenticity or deserved place among the populace than another. As a freeborn woman who speaks two languages and one pidgin fluently, I reserve the right to take umbrage with that point.

And I will go there.
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  #134  
Old August 8th, 2006, 07:20 PM
Paul Paul is offline
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Default Re: Post that pidgin vernacular from your island!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pua'i Mana'o
It is my acknowledgement of the practice to politicize language as if one has more merit, authenticity or deserved place among the populace than another
Hey I agree with everything that you said. Standard American English has become the defacto language of this country and that's what gives it more merit, authenticity and a deserved place among our populace. It's the tyranny of the majority. That's why people who speak like rednecks, hillbillies, or ghetto people are looked down upon. It's probably the same way with Hawaii pidgin speakers.

And I am impressed with what you wrote. You have shown that a pidgin speaker can also write eloquently in standard english. However I personally know several people who can only speak pidgin and barely even write.

Last edited by Paul; August 8th, 2006 at 07:26 PM.
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  #135  
Old August 8th, 2006, 07:37 PM
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Default Re: Post that pidgin vernacular from your island!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1stwahine
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

told ya he was LURKING......

Too Funny!

Auntie Lynn
almost like one Pueo sighting...look there's one now!
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  #136  
Old August 8th, 2006, 07:37 PM
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Pua'i Mana'o Pua'i Mana'o is offline
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Default Re: Post that pidgin vernacular from your island!

To what are you agreeing? Do you realize that I was clarifying my statements, to which you attached the word "attack"? Or did you just read what you wanted to read?

No matter. Language will always evolve. And as long as people keep speaking to their children in the manner which they see fit, keep making (and purchasing) media that reflects their linguistic and cultural color, people can look down all they like. It will continue. Even by those educated enough to know the difference.

But in this I will agree with you. ASE should be a communication skill everyone in this country endeavors to acquire, particularly sound writing skills.
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  #137  
Old August 8th, 2006, 07:39 PM
Leo Lakio Leo Lakio is offline
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Default Re: Post that pidgin vernacular from your island!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul
people who speak like rednecks, hillbillies, or ghetto people are looked down upon.
I've seen that. I have a number of friends who were raised in the continental southeast, who have made a distinct effort to bury or altogether lose their Southern accents, in order to avoid being looked upon as uneducated. Fortunately, they changed their minds eventually, and were proud of who they were and where they were raised, and would not let the stereotypical judgement of others affect them so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul
And I am impressed with what you wrote. You have shown that a pidgin speaker can also write eloquently in standard english.
Oooh...now that sounds a bit condescending..."not bad, for one of your kind."
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  #138  
Old August 8th, 2006, 07:49 PM
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Pua'i Mana'o Pua'i Mana'o is offline
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Default Re: Post that pidgin vernacular from your island!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul
And I am impressed with what you wrote. You have shown that a pidgin speaker can also write eloquently in standard english. However I personally know several people who can only speak pidgin and barely even write.
Mahalo for the compliment, but don't you also know others who can speak both? Pidgin crosses all ethnic and socio-economic lines. It conveys love, humor, sorrow and anger beautifully. And algebra. When one is perplexed, explaining through pidgin can be the perfect antidote for throwing a computer out the window...or into a filled bathtub. When sharing a highball with an old grandfather, it is the nicest form of expression to share how grateful one is to having that moment left with a loved one in his twilight.

Pidgin deserves its place in Hawai'i. I enjoy it as the lingua franca of these isles and use it daily.
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  #139  
Old August 8th, 2006, 07:53 PM
kimo55 kimo55 is offline
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Default Re: Post that pidgin vernacular from your island!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul
I personally know several people who can only speak pidgin and barely even write.
I know dozens of those. and many of the reverse too. And the last thing I would judge them on is this.
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  #140  
Old August 8th, 2006, 08:00 PM
Peshkwe Peshkwe is offline
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Default Re: Post that pidgin vernacular from your island!

North Carolina has a couple of dialects that could rival the thickest Hawaiian pidgin.

Here's a page of quicktime sound clips for both the Lumbie dialect and the Ockracoke 'Hoi Toid' brogue:

http://www.uga.edu/lsava/Wolfram/Wolfram.html

<edit>

I think the N.C. Outer Bank Islanders have alot in common with the way they feel about their dialect as do Hawaiian Islanders feel about pidgin:

http://www.ncsu.edu/linguistics/code...itoidebook.htm

Quote:
There is also a cultural reason for preserving the brogue. As we said before, language is culture, and to lose a language is to lose a culture. This fact is often recognized when it comes to entire languages, but not generally acknowledged when it comes to dialects. Even islanders don't immediately think about dialect when they think of the Ocracoke way of life. Just about everyone we talked to in Ocracoke said that islanders are first and foremost identified by being island born and bred, not by being speakers of the brogue. As one islander put it, "An O'cocker, a native, is somebody that's lived here; born here, their family's born here." Most people don't point to the brogue as the ultimate mark of an islander. Candy Gaskill, who seems to be a good barometer for the feelings of islanders, said it well.

It's not the brogue that's home; it's the people and the warmth, you know, the love and the community, the togetherness and stuff. I mean, I don't really think it's the brogue or the dialect, I think it's more the people that makes it.

Last edited by Peshkwe; August 8th, 2006 at 08:21 PM.
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  #141  
Old August 8th, 2006, 08:03 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Post that pidgin vernacular from your island!

"Wot? I owe you money?"

Miulang
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  #142  
Old August 8th, 2006, 08:25 PM
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lurkah lurkah is offline
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Default Re: Post that pidgin vernacular from your island!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miulang

"Wot? I owe you money?"
Eh, no get futless.

Ahaha wop ya jaws.
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  #143  
Old August 8th, 2006, 08:36 PM
oceanpacific oceanpacific is offline
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Default Re: Post that pidgin vernacular from your island!

Getting back on track:

You SABE (sa-bay)? - "understand" or "know"

Heard this from a lot of older Filipino gentlemen retired from the plantation.
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  #144  
Old August 8th, 2006, 08:51 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Post that pidgin vernacular from your island!

Wat kine dis?
Eh blah, who you think you? High muckamucka or something?
Ainokea wat you stay say, we going go!

Miulang
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  #145  
Old August 8th, 2006, 09:40 PM
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cezanne cezanne is offline
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Default Re: Post that pidgin vernacular from your island!

I always thought it was tantaran. As in "look him, acting all tantaran". But someone else told me it's tarantaran .

Also, it wasn't until intermediate that I learned that one gets an ankle sprain, not a sprang ankle.
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  #146  
Old August 9th, 2006, 06:47 AM
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Default Re: Post that pidgin vernacular from your island!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cezanne
I always thought it was tantaran. As in "look him, acting all tantaran". But someone else told me it's tarantaran .

Also, it wasn't until intermediate that I learned that one gets an ankle sprain, not a sprang ankle.
It's Tarantaran and it when you act big. Sometimes associated with making big body.

And I say it: High Maka maka as in higher in the social class or as we would say: Oh wow you Kaisa (because the rich kids came from Hawaii Kai built by Henry J. Kaiser), when flashing the bucks.

Anyone remember "Totung" as in corrugated roofing? One year I had to buy some from Kilgo's and I told the Filipina gal working there I needed five sheets of Totung. She said in her Filipina accent, "Two Tons?...of what?" I told her, "No Totung sheets". Her response: We don't sell two-ton sheets of anything"

So I say, "Corrugated sheet metal" and she got it.
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  #147  
Old August 15th, 2006, 04:33 AM
Kuewa Kuewa is offline
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Default Re: Post that pidgin vernacular from your island!

"Owee-owee"
what you say before you take a piss outside for apologize to whateva spirits get in the area
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  #148  
Old May 23rd, 2008, 04:21 PM
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MrBobHarrisSan MrBobHarrisSan is offline
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Default Re: Post that pidgin vernacular from your island!

Quote:
Originally Posted by oceanpacific View Post
Is the HOLO HOLO "slippa" factory still in existence? Their brand was sold at the Slipper Shop in Ala Moana Center.

Often used to get the KAKA ROACH!
Holo Holo Slippers went out a long time ago (before I was born I think, I'm 29) when my grandparents sold the company and factory. The factory is still there just off Nimitz Hwy before Chinatown, but I don't know what it's used for now. Glad you got some good whacking out of those slippahs!

Last edited by MrBobHarrisSan; May 23rd, 2008 at 04:24 PM. Reason: Forgot the quote, oops
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  #149  
Old May 23rd, 2008, 04:30 PM
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Mike_Lowery Mike_Lowery is offline
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Default Re: Post that pidgin vernacular from your island!

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Originally Posted by MrBobHarrisSan View Post
Holo Holo Slippers went out a long time ago (before I was born I think, I'm 29) when my grandparents sold the company and factory. The factory is still there just off Nimitz Hwy before Chinatown, but I don't know what it's used for now. Glad you got some good whacking out of those slippahs!
Wow, I forgot about this thread...

MrBob, did you find this thread/HT while googling "holo holo slippers"? I love when serendipitous stuff like this happens.
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  #150  
Old June 6th, 2008, 02:36 PM
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MrBobHarrisSan MrBobHarrisSan is offline
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Default Re: Post that pidgin vernacular from your island!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_Lowery View Post
Wow, I forgot about this thread...

MrBob, did you find this thread/HT while googling "holo holo slippers"? I love when serendipitous stuff like this happens.
Looks like I forgot about this thread too... Been running back and forth between Big Island Kauai and Oahu lately. Finally caught my breath a little.

Yes, I indeed found this wonderful site by googling (gotta love ever evolving English) "holo holo slippers". Been trying to find out more about family history and came across this site. Definitely serendipitous.
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