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  #1  
Old November 1st, 2010, 03:18 AM
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Default The most dangerous drug

http://www.aolnews.com/health/articl...caine/19696816

Just more evidence of the absolute lunacy and illogic of the War on Drugs.

Funny how cigarettes are THE MOST LETHAL DRUG in the world, and just barely mentioned in the article.
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Old November 1st, 2010, 10:14 AM
Kalalau Kalalau is offline
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Default Re: The most dangerous drug

I am old enough to remember TV ads for cigarettes featuring people dressed up like doctors recommending such and such a brand, like Kent for example, with the exclusive micronite filter which turned out to be asbestos, just to make sure that the smoker got lung cancer. Then those hilarious ads showing athletic people taking a break for a Newport while mountain climbing in the Alps. We always thought it would be fun for there to be a Winston mini fun run from the bar to the cigarette machine and back. I remember an article in Playboy long ago that assessed your personality based on what brand you smoked and humorously observed that if you didn't smoke you were one of those paranoid health fanatics. And of course the cigarette girls passing out free samples in student unions. Last I heard prisons gave departing prisoners little gift packs if thats the right expression, containing a few free smokes. Look at old movies for product placement, its incredible, vast numbers of people smoking, all sending the message to viewers that, well, if Myrna Loy smokes how bad could it really be...and sooooo glamorous!

And yet...at age 63 now, having been quit from ciggies since 1971 (figuring myself at least $60,000 richer for having done so), you would think I would have known more people who had died from lung cancer, but I don't--only 2. How to explain the 5 I know who have died from brain cancer? I really don't know. Cell phones haven't been around that long. Maybe its just a statistical aberration. It happens. But the cell phone is always kept as far away as possible. We are all going to die of something, sadly. If given a choice, I would go out like Nelson Rockefeller did, but not so publicly.
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Old November 1st, 2010, 11:35 AM
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Default Re: The most dangerous drug

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Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
And yet...at age 63
K, you one of us????? Glory Be!

Quote:
now, having been quit from ciggies since 1971 (figuring myself at least $60,000 richer for having done so), you would think I would have known more people who had died from lung cancer, but I don't--only 2. How to explain the 5 I know who have died from brain cancer?.
My father started smoking at age 12 and then quit cold turkey at around age 45. He died at age 91 of natural causes, but he had two forms of cancer, neither of them lung cancer. Some studies have shown that cigarette smoking not only causes lung cancer, but other forms of cancer too. The good news is that Hawai'i residents enjoy a much longer life expectancy than the US population in general.

Live long and prosper, Kalalau.
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Old November 1st, 2010, 12:14 PM
Kalalau Kalalau is offline
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Default Re: The most dangerous drug

Matapule, you are one of the greats. Thank you for existing. My ancestry is Scottish--thrifty. Cheap. Depending on how you want to look at it. Whether its genetic or imprinted, resistant to parting with money. Yet having saved so much from not smoking for almost 40 years, any time I am tempted to buy something I want but don't actually need, I think of all that money I have from not smoking and often end up treating myself. Like trips to Hawai'i for example. Only once on first class, but still. Or this new Apple which does not get viruses and crash and need scans all the time. I smoked as a teen. Bad ass dopey teen. Yet now when I see kids smoking I am tempted to snatch the smokes out of their mouths and yell a lecture at them. It is incredible so many peoples livelihoods depend on this deadly industry, so much tax revenue, so many investors. Its one of America's few hugely successful exports, and there are giant rates of smoking overseas. My mom smoked, gone from heart disease at only 57, she could have passed for 90. Seriously. I look at pictures of her as a young woman, so vibrant, horseback riding in the mountains of Wyoming, quite a change to the oxygen tubes at the end. They marketed cigs to women back when she was a young woman as an expression of liberated womanhood. What can I say, it worked. She and all her women friends smoked. They all passed before their time. They probably would have been gone by now, anyway, but they probably could have enjoyed ( ! ) another 20 or 30 years if they hadn't smoked.

Last edited by Kalalau; November 1st, 2010 at 12:20 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old November 1st, 2010, 12:19 PM
bjd392 bjd392 is offline
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Default Re: The most dangerous drug

The article seems make a big stink about alcohol in the beginning, but then midway through it, it backs off and finally takes the stance that it should focus on "problem drinkers" vice those that indulge in a drink or two.

They pointed out that drinking in excess causes problems. I'm sure we all agree with that. Although an irony to it states that people partake in excess because it is legal and easily accessible. So, if other drugs that are illegal can still be considered bad, does it imply that legalizing a drug will make it more accessible, and then suddenly prone to excessive use?

Some of their endpoints blame the lack of scientific study, but it doesn't appear anywhere in the article where scientific studies have also proven positive effects of alcohol (the whole glass of wine per day, etc.).

If a solution is to make legal things like alcohol and tobacco "more expensive," I highly doubt it will deter people that much. Cigarette prices have gone up significantly, and people still buy. Those who can't afford it may be inclined to acquire it by "other means."

Oh well. I'm still going to enjoy my nice delicious brandies, scotches and other smooth liquors, along with a decent cigar every once in a while, regardless of their price.
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Old November 1st, 2010, 12:24 PM
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Default Re: The most dangerous drug

I like how a British article links alcohol to football (soccer) games. Considering how insane some soccer hooligans are, I'm pretty sure those numbers a little skewed.
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Old November 1st, 2010, 01:09 PM
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Default Re: The most dangerous drug

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Originally Posted by bjd392 View Post
Oh well. I'm still going to enjoy my nice delicious brandies, scotches and other smooth liquors, along with a decent cigar every once in a while, regardless of their price.
How bout a little toke on a joint once in a while? How you going to vote on the CA pot proposition?

B, you and I agree on far more than anyone might think
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Old November 1st, 2010, 01:28 PM
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Default Re: The most dangerous drug

Raising prices on ciggys and alcohol is just another form of prohibiton. Prohibitions have a tendency to drive criminal activity, as history plainly shows.

When governments use prohibitions to control substance abuse, the end result is that the government excludes only themselves from the control of the product.
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Old November 1st, 2010, 03:59 PM
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Default Re: The most dangerous drug

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How bout a little toke on a joint once in a while? How you going to vote on the CA pot proposition?
I actually think I'm mildly allergic to pot. I found this out in high school walking past one of the football players toking up behind the science building courtyard. Just smelling it makes me very ill, headache, light-headed; therefore, I had no inkling ever to try it or use it, and never will.

Reading CA's proposition text, it doesn't seem like a very complete or convincing (or even well-written) law that any logical person would support. Considering it's also a direct violation of a current federal statute, that's just another minor reason why I don't support it. But the whole idea that it'll make it "harder for drug smugglers" is a baloney reason.

Working in industries of public trust (law enforcement, military, pilots, bus drivers, firefighters, etc.) I can't condone its use, whether legalized or illegal. Keeping it illegal, to me, is just one extra step to ensure members of public trust refrain from using it.
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Old November 1st, 2010, 04:04 PM
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Default Re: The most dangerous drug

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B, you and I agree on far more than anyone might think
As human beings, I agree. The issues we are raised with, learned, or decided upon are unique to ourselves. It's the issues we're more passionate about with opposing views that seem to make threads a little hot

In the meantime, a jigger of Don Julio 1942 would go quite nicely about now.
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Old November 1st, 2010, 04:25 PM
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Default Re: The most dangerous drug

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I actually think I'm mildly allergic to pot. I found this out in high school walking past one of the football players toking up behind the science building courtyard. Just smelling it makes me very ill, headache, light-headed; therefore, I had no inkling ever to try it or use it, and never will.

That's like Clinton, "I smoked pot, but I didn't inhale." I went to a lot of the Acid Concerts at the Filmore Auditorium in San Francisco back in the 60's. There, I inhaled lots of pot, it was just floating in the air, but I NEVER smoked it!


Quote:
Considering it's also a direct violation of a current federal statute, that's just another minor reason why I don't support it.


That is a significant issue for me. I have been very critical of Arizona's anti-immigrant law because it is in conflict with Federal Law (among othr things). I try to be consistent in my views and therefore the conflict in the proposed CA law is difficult for me to justify.

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Keeping it illegal, to me, is just one extra step to ensure members of public trust refrain from using it.
I couldn't disagree less. Prohibition did not stop alcohol consumption and in some ways made it easier to acquire alcohol. And for the record, I believe that most of CA law enforcement organizations have come out in favor of the proposition (but I can't provide a link right now).
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Last edited by matapule; November 1st, 2010 at 04:30 PM.
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Old November 1st, 2010, 04:26 PM
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Default Re: The most dangerous drug

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Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
[...]
And yet...at age 63 now,
Aha! Another member of the ever-youthful, over-the-hill gang!!
Quote:
you would think I would have known more people who had died from lung cancer, but I don't--only 2.[...]
It would be interesting to see statistics that compare ciggie induced lung cancer deaths to emphysema/COPD deaths. Personally, I feel there are more of the latter. My dad smoked from the age of 10 (Camels, no less) 'til he quit, cold turkey, at the age of 74. He never showed any ill effects while smoking but once he quit he was hit hard with COPD and was on oxygen the last 7 years of his life. While cigs didn't shorten his life, per se (he passed at 85; maybe he would've lived to 100!), they did impact his quality of life for several years. Both my parents smoked like chimneys. My mom had no ill effects. Me? I never smoked and was/still am allergic to cig smoke...probably caused by over-exposure as a child.

Alcohol? Like everything else...in moderation.
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Old November 1st, 2010, 04:37 PM
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Default Re: The most dangerous drug

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In the meantime, a jigger of Don Julio 1942 would go quite nicely about now.
Maasi'i pau'u (Naughty Boy)! I have a bottle of 1942 on my bar top right now, right next to the Panama Gold. Stop by. Your choice?
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Old November 1st, 2010, 06:20 PM
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Default Re: The most dangerous drug

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Funny how cigarettes are THE MOST LETHAL DRUG in the world, ...
That's not a fact. That's ideology. I smoked for 50 years -- quit 5 years ago -- and I'm in excellent health. Cigarettes are not healthful, that's for sure, but wild exaggerations provoke the same derision as "Reefer Madness".
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Old November 1st, 2010, 10:18 PM
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Default Re: The most dangerous drug

It's this sentence that stands out to me -

"Drugs that are legal cause at least as much damage, if not more, than drugs that are illicit,"

We have much more of a problem in our society with the legal drugs. More people die of overdoses from prescription medicines than any of the so-called illegal drugs. More people are impaired due to the legal drugs. All in the name of health - how ironic!

Kids are getting their hands on all kinds of prescription drugs. OxyCotin is a perfect example. Highly addictive and is especially popular with the 18 - 25 crowd. Very sad. I, unfortunately, know way too many kids who have gotten mixed up with this and other 'scripts' - kids from all backgrounds.

Then we have the drugged up seniors. OMG . They are on more drugs than the kids. Most of the drugs they are taking are to counteract the side effects of the previous drug that they probably didn't need in the first place. (yes, yes, I know - true for everyone but you - 'cause in your case, you really need it.......)

So, on the young end of the age spectrum and on the old end of the spectrum, you have waayyy too many walking around in a stupor. The rest of us? How many of you have taken cold medication lately? Ever notice the brain tingle? What other drugs are you on? Are you allowed to operate machinery? I'm just sayin'.........

I am in the process of quitting cigarettes. Not for health reasons, but for tax reasons. I REFUSE to fund the medical establishment through cigarette taxes! This is a New York issue - they have imposed over $5 per pack tax to fund the nurses' pay raise. Not that I wish to begrudge the nurses their due - its how they are getting the money that gets me. I will smoke herbal cigarettes (legal), I will take nicotine tablets or whatever if necessary. I may even switch to cigars. All of these are tax free. Go figure.
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Old November 1st, 2010, 11:13 PM
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Default Re: The most dangerous drug

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Originally Posted by acousticlady View Post
[...]
We have much more of a problem in our society with the legal drugs.[...]

Then we have the drugged up seniors. OMG . They are on more drugs than the kids. Most of the drugs they are taking are to counteract the side effects of the previous drug that they probably didn't need in the first place. (yes, yes, I know - true for everyone but you - 'cause in your case, you really need it.......)[...]
You've hit a home run, and touched a nerve, with both these statements. I've always been one to question any prescription and have no problem refusing to take a med after researching the side effects the docs don't mention. I've come to the conclusion that, for me, western, or allopathic, drugs do nothing but poison my body. I've had too many experiences to validate that. And, the practice of adding drugs to counter side effects is just plain nuts. Oops, 2nd drug caused a problem? Well, here's a 3rd drug to counter the side effect of the 2nd drug that's countering the side effect of the first drug. Ad infinitum. My PCP and I are in total disagreement over this subject!
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Old November 1st, 2010, 11:47 PM
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Default Re: The most dangerous drug

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We have much more of a problem in our society with the legal drugs.
I will no longer drink a diet soda or anything with artificial sweetener. I believe that they are just more drugs that were never approved by the FDA.
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Old November 2nd, 2010, 02:26 AM
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Default Re: The most dangerous drug

http://drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/30

Greg, check the link. The numbers are quite surprising.

Ciggys 435,000
Alcohol 85,000
Drugs 17,000

But the real question is how many smokers have wrecked their cars after going 24 hours WITHOUT a cigarette?
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Old November 2nd, 2010, 07:20 AM
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Default Re: The most dangerous drug

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Originally Posted by timkona View Post
http://drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/30

Greg, check the link. The numbers are quite surprising.

Ciggys 435,000
I looked. My problem with your posting is that it is phrased in a misleading way. "Most lethal drug" would ordinarily mean "drug which is most likely to kill you if you take it". Obviously, if you ranked how lethal various drugs are in this ordinary sense, tobacco would be way, way far down on the list, if it even counts as a drug at all.
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Old November 2nd, 2010, 10:40 AM
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Default Re: The most dangerous drug

LOL. Ciggys not a drug. LOL
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Old November 2nd, 2010, 01:51 PM
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I looked. My problem with your posting is that it is phrased in a misleading way. "Most lethal drug" would ordinarily mean "drug which is most likely to kill you if you take it". Obviously, if you ranked how lethal various drugs are in this ordinary sense, tobacco would be way, way far down on the list, if it even counts as a drug at all.
That's where my line of thinking is too. For the many of us who partake in one or more of the following "drug" habits, such as coffee, nicotine, alcohol, aspirin, etc., these aren't things that will kill us if done once, or even in moderation.

The big fears that are out there are the "one-time-changes-everything" drugs that have permanent effects. LSD, PCP, (and with all those commercials of the Hawaii Project ) and meth come to mind as things that can and have killed on the first dose, or sometime shortly thereafter, if not permanently screws you up.

Regarding this legal drug scenario, there's a difference between having the drug be used properly, and intentionally misusing it for recreational or unlawful means. Coricidin was pointed out years ago on 20/20 as a drug that kids crave (and I remember being given Coricidin as an alternative to Bayer as a kid when I had headaches) because it has a sweet outer coating, much like candy. Having headache meds or vitamins or other prescription medications is not illegal, but sometimes we have to wonder if taking them is even necessary, depending on the ailment. I prefer not to take medicine for headaches, unless absolutely necessary. But even then, most of my tylenol expires before I get a chance to use it.
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Old November 2nd, 2010, 02:07 PM
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Default Re: The most dangerous drug

Nearly 1/2 million deaths PER YEAR just isn't enough for you guys. I'd say the insidious way that ciggys sneak up on a person over the long haul is way more sinister than the instant heart attack of a coke binge.

The numbers are what they are. You guys are eating the War on Drugs propaganda like it's PEZ. Government loves people like you guys.
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Old November 2nd, 2010, 02:36 PM
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Default Re: The most dangerous drug

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That's where my line of thinking is too. For the many of us who partake in one or more of the following "drug" habits, such as coffee, nicotine, alcohol, aspirin, etc., these aren't things that will kill us if done once, or even in moderation.
Actually, that is not what scientific research shows. The items mentioned above can cause slow death over time, even in moderation.

The problem in this thread is that people are talking about different things. We are not all on the same page. Tim's point is that cigarettes are the leading cause of death compared to other substances. I think we can all agree that the statistics prove that this is true...at this time....if we limit it to that point.
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Old November 2nd, 2010, 02:59 PM
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I think we can all agree that the statistics prove that this is true...
No, not me. I don't have the expertise to dispute it, but I'm suspicious of all the interpretation involved in those statistical conclusions (they are hardly statistics). I couldn't get to the underlying reference in Tim's link, but the following slightly more recent version goes into more detail about where the numbers come from: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5745a3.htm. And I'll just make the obvious point that if you looked at the death certificates of these hundreds of thousands of people supposedly killed by tobacco, you would never see tobacco listed as the cause of death.
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Old November 2nd, 2010, 03:06 PM
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Actually, that is not what scientific research shows. The items mentioned above can cause slow death over time, even in moderation.
Even living kills us over time.

I'm thinking if partaking in things like coffee and alcohol slowly kills us, it may lower our life expectancy again and thus not have to raise the retirement age

If people complain that drugs prematurely kill us, some can also complain that medical drugs are allowing us to live too long.
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