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  #26  
Old January 27th, 2009, 02:59 AM
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Default Re: Sin taxes

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Originally Posted by Amati View Post
They want your money, folks.
They want more of our money.


Quote:
Originally Posted by matapule View Post
I do have a problem with the Hawai'i State tax structure. Taxing food and rent for example are regressive [...] I think that Hawai'i real estate property taxes are ridiculously low and don't reflect ability to pay.
Careful. Businesses (like landlords) don't pay taxes. They pass them on. So property taxes become a hidden rent tax.
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  #27  
Old January 27th, 2009, 08:29 PM
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Default Re: Sin taxes

This man adamantly opposes sin taxes. They are a regressive and mean spirited, not to mention selfish way to move the bunden of taxation from the ultra rich to poor and working class folks with "sin" as the ostensible reason.

Take for example you and I both pay one dollar more tax on a bottle of beer. Bill Gates pays the same dollar. The dollar is nothing to Gates because even though he's very rich, you can only drink so much beer before you die.

For example;
$100/year you and I
$100/year Bill Gates

Now what he doesn't want is a percentage. In that case it may be more like:

$3/year you and I
$3,000,000/ year for Bill Gates

This is the true reason for high tobacco, gasoline, alcohol, and so on taxes in Hawaii. Richy rich is cuddling up to the top Democrats and they are quitely giving are lowest wage earners the shaft to the delight of the ultra-rich as they can now have a lower tax "bunden".

And the sickest thing of all is that this Democrat Legislature that supposedly is a friend of the poor and working class is hypocritical because Hawaii has some of the meanest excise taxes in the nation.
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  #28  
Old January 27th, 2009, 08:58 PM
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Default Re: Sin taxes

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Originally Posted by AlohaKine View Post
Richy rich is cuddling up to the top Democrats and they are quitely giving are lowest wage earners the shaft to the delight of the ultra-rich as they can now have a lower tax "bunden"..
Not to worry. Haven't you heard? Obama is going to take money from Timkona and give it to all you poor guys with wealth redistribution.

Now take me for example. I am sitting here enjoying my fine bottle of Havana Club Cuban Rum. You poor guys in the States can't even enjoy a fine Cuban rum. I am redistributing my wealth to the poor people of Cuba with what is an illegal product in the US. My friends come to visit me and pour their Havana Club into an empty Kahlua bottle so they can get it through customs in LA. One customs guy asked my 69 y.o.friend, "What do you have there?" He said, "Cuban rum inside a Kahlua bottle." The customs officer laughed and sent him on through. Sinning never felt so good!
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  #29  
Old March 9th, 2009, 02:46 AM
Walkoff Balk Walkoff Balk is offline
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Default Re: Sin taxes

Since, we're second to Utah for on-line porn subscribers. How about a 4 percent sin tax on those? Btw, we lost to BYU and Utah. So, I can't use the big foam finger prop stating that we're number one.
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  #30  
Old March 9th, 2009, 03:50 AM
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Default Re: Sin taxes

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Originally Posted by Walkoff Balk View Post
Since, we're second to Utah for on-line porn subscribers. How about a 4 percent sin tax on those?
Easy to say, hard to collect.
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  #31  
Old March 10th, 2009, 02:06 AM
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Default Re: Sin taxes

Now the legislature wants to raise the cigarette tax $2 a pack.

Hello black market. Hello.
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  #32  
Old March 20th, 2009, 04:00 AM
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Default Re: Sin taxes

I'm against it unless this sin tax is for ALL sins. And if that's the case then fine, cause everybody sins, right? No group would get singled-out!
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  #33  
Old March 20th, 2009, 02:21 PM
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Default Re: Sin taxes

How about a virtue tax... we could tax someone every time they go to church, adopt a dog from the humane society, volunteer at a homeless shelter... the possibilities are endless.
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  #34  
Old March 20th, 2009, 10:52 PM
Mililani Mililani is offline
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Default Re: Sin taxes

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Originally Posted by AlohaKine View Post
Now the legislature wants to raise the cigarette tax $2 a pack.

Hello black market. Hello.
Yep, and it might sound funny to some, but sooooo many people are turning to black market! Heck, you can even buy your cigarettes online.
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  #35  
Old March 27th, 2009, 02:38 AM
Walkoff Balk Walkoff Balk is offline
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Default Re: Sin taxes

The federal tax on cigarettes goes up 160% starting April. Who's going to keep on smoking with this tax increase?
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  #36  
Old March 27th, 2009, 03:40 AM
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Default Re: Sin taxes

Doesn't the new tax bring a pack of cigarettes to over $9. a pack?
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  #37  
Old March 27th, 2009, 08:24 PM
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Default Re: Sin taxes

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Originally Posted by GeckoGeek View Post
If you need an example, we tax the rich at a higher rate.
In many cases for the ultra rich they get taxed at a lower rate -
http://www.ctj.org/blog/2007/06/buff...oo-little.html

"Warren Buffet complained that he paid a 17.7% tax rate on his $46 million of taxable income in 2006, while his employees paid an average 32.9% tax rate (his receptionist's tax rate was 30%)."

I used to disagree with "sin taxes" in general for reasons already mentioned (they tax the poor at a higher rate).

However, I believe that those things or activities that when consumed or done do increase the burden on the health care system in the long run such as motorcycle riders w/o helmets, drivers w/o seatbelts, cigarettes, alcohol, etc. should be taxed such that the revenue collected pays for the extra cost that would normally be covered by all taxpayers.
So go ahead and apply a sin tax but only use it to pay for the health care, emergency services, etc of those engaging in risky behaviours that the taxpayer would normally end up paying for.
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  #38  
Old March 27th, 2009, 10:04 PM
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Default Re: Sin taxes

I for one am sick of the "health" lobby trying to blame smokers and fat people for increased health care costs. It just isn't true. While being fat or smoking can cause their own costs if you look at the whole picture it is the "healthy" people that cost the most, spending vast sums on altimers disease, strokes, extented managed care and so on, eating up vast sums the whole way. Check out this Dutch article that looks at total lifetime costs.

"On average, healthy people lived 84 years. Smokers lived about 77 years, and obese people lived about 80 years. Smokers and obese people tended to have more heart disease than the healthy people.

Cancer incidence, except for lung cancer, was the same in all three groups. Obese people had the most diabetes, and healthy people had the most strokes. Ultimately, the thin and healthy group cost the most, about $417,000, from age 20 on.

The cost of care for obese people was $371,000, and for smokers, about $326,000."


Looks like the anti-smoking lobby has been blowing smoke up the rear ends of the legislature and the public for some time by showing health cost "snapshots" and not true lifetime costs. Why? The article covers that as well.

"This throws a bucket of cold water onto the idea that obesity is going to cost trillions of dollars," said Patrick Basham, a professor of health politics at Johns Hopkins University who was unconnected to the study. He said government projections about obesity costs are frequently based on guesswork, political agendas and changing science."

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/feb...hest-for-thin/
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  #39  
Old March 27th, 2009, 10:19 PM
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Lightbulb Re: Sin taxes

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Originally Posted by tutusue View Post
Sin taxes? I'm ok with them. A cigarette tax wouldn't affect me but a liquor tax would. If it becomes financially problematic then I stop enjoying a glass of wine. I've long believed that taxing unhealthful habits is not a bad thing.

During the early 1980s, I wrote my then state representative about my thoughts on this subject. I also included legalizing pot and prostitution, regulating and taxing the heck out of 'em!

And, yes, I'd like to see a lottery that would benefit our school system.
I’m with you, Tutu! At least on the state level, the budget crisis has led Governor Lingle to do some really stupid things. Like trying to take federal stimulus money specifically earmarked for education, and use it balance the general fund. If Duke Aiona is this “moral crusader” that he purports to be, he should be pushing sin taxes! As far as your lottery idea, I don’t know how much traction it would get since the majority of gambling (or at least what we know of) by Hawai‘i residents occurs in Las Vegas. So technically speaking, politicians have managed to avoid “importing” that “sin” (even going so far as to eliminate it from the Akaka Bill, which I don’t think is legal. But that’s another thread ).

Finally, about pakalolo — we already allow medical marijuana in Hawai‘i. The problem is U.S. Attorney Ed Kubo who is enforcing federal law. Two presidential candidates would have ended the war on drugs — Ron Paul (R) and Bob Barr (L). Until we get someone of the caliber of these two gentleman in office, the “sin” of illegal drugs will continue to be a billion$-dollar drain on federal coffers.
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  #40  
Old March 27th, 2009, 10:23 PM
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Default Re: Sin taxes

Hug a smoker, hug a fat person - they are saving big bucks in lifetime health care costs. See my post above.
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  #41  
Old March 28th, 2009, 12:45 AM
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Default Re: Sin taxes

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlohaKine View Post
I for one am sick of the "health" lobby trying to blame smokers and fat people for increased health care costs. It just isn't true. While being fat or smoking can cause their own costs if you look at the whole picture it is the "healthy" people that cost the most, spending vast sums on altimers disease, strokes, extented managed care and so on, eating up vast sums the whole way. Check out this Dutch article that looks at total lifetime costs.

"On average, healthy people lived 84 years. Smokers lived about 77 years, and obese people lived about 80 years. Smokers and obese people tended to have more heart disease than the healthy people.

Cancer incidence, except for lung cancer, was the same in all three groups. Obese people had the most diabetes, and healthy people had the most strokes. Ultimately, the thin and healthy group cost the most, about $417,000, from age 20 on.

The cost of care for obese people was $371,000, and for smokers, about $326,000."


Looks like the anti-smoking lobby has been blowing smoke up the rear ends of the legislature and the public for some time by showing health cost "snapshots" and not true lifetime costs. Why? The article covers that as well.

"This throws a bucket of cold water onto the idea that obesity is going to cost trillions of dollars," said Patrick Basham, a professor of health politics at Johns Hopkins University who was unconnected to the study. He said government projections about obesity costs are frequently based on guesswork, political agendas and changing science."

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/feb...hest-for-thin/
Wow that's really interesting! I've gotta look into that...
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  #42  
Old March 28th, 2009, 04:52 PM
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Default Re: Sin taxes

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Originally Posted by StinkyTheGrump View Post
In many cases for the ultra rich they get taxed at a lower rate -
http://www.ctj.org/blog/2007/06/buff...oo-little.html
I had to scroll back a ways to figure out the issues.

If you look at the tax table, you can clearly see that some people pay more taxes then others. If you make an exemption for poor people, then you shift the burden to the richer people. Equal is equal and the tax table is not.

So yes, we do treat people differently. That was the point I was making.

As for your link, it has to do with the fact we treat different sources of income differently. The ultra rich get it through capital gains, not salary.
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  #43  
Old March 29th, 2009, 01:06 AM
Walkoff Balk Walkoff Balk is offline
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Default Re: Sin taxes

At least the tax won't affect people who borrow cigarettes.
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  #44  
Old March 29th, 2009, 07:02 AM
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Default Re: Sin taxes

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlohaKine View Post
I for one am sick of the "health" lobby trying to blame smokers and fat people for increased health care costs. It just isn't true. While being fat or smoking can cause their own costs if you look at the whole picture it is the "healthy" people that cost the most, spending vast sums on altimers disease, strokes, extented managed care and so on, eating up vast sums the whole way. Check out this Dutch article that looks at total lifetime costs.

"On average, healthy people lived 84 years. Smokers lived about 77 years, and obese people lived about 80 years. Smokers and obese people tended to have more heart disease than the healthy people.

Cancer incidence, except for lung cancer, was the same in all three groups. Obese people had the most diabetes, and healthy people had the most strokes. Ultimately, the thin and healthy group cost the most, about $417,000, from age 20 on.

The cost of care for obese people was $371,000, and for smokers, about $326,000."

Looks like the anti-smoking lobby has been blowing smoke up the rear ends of the legislature and the public for some time by showing health cost "snapshots" and not true lifetime costs. Why? The article covers that as well.

"This throws a bucket of cold water onto the idea that obesity is going to cost trillions of dollars," said Patrick Basham, a professor of health politics at Johns Hopkins University who was unconnected to the study. He said government projections about obesity costs are frequently based on guesswork, political agendas and changing science."

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/feb...hest-for-thin/
BUT health care is just ONE element of the problem of the cost of obesity and smoking. Also to be considered is:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/...ese-cost_N.htm
"The study, paid for by the Dutch Ministry of Health, Welfare and Sports, did not take into account other potential costs of obesity and smoking, such as lost economic productivity or social costs."

There is also the cost of a shortened life:
http://ukpmc.ac.uk/articlerender.cgi?artid=1248234
"Their results tell us that that life expectancy from age 20 is reduced by 5 years for obese people and 7 for smokers".

Additionally:
http://ukpmc.ac.uk/articlerender.cgi?artid=1248234
"Moreover, quite apart from health-care costs, the other costs to society from obesity are also greater because of absences from work due to illness and employment difficulties; these costs amount to considerably more than health-care costs. It is not clear that these extra costs are intrinsically related to health-care costs, but they are currently estimated to be around four times as great in obese than in lean people."

Lean people and non-smokers live longer, so have more years to rack up health costs. But they also have more productive work years, and a better quality of life due to good health. I'll take that choice, the healthiest life possible and for many good quality years.
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Last edited by Amati; March 29th, 2009 at 07:13 AM.
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  #45  
Old March 29th, 2009, 09:17 AM
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Default Re: Sin taxes

They tax the "sins" most likely in an effort to curb the so-called "sins."

Yet they depend so much on these "sin" taxes to make the budget balanced.

If we all stopped smoking and drinking, like they want us to, where would all the money come from?

Perhaps all us "sinners" should take a month or so off from the "sins" and see how that affects the budget.
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  #46  
Old March 29th, 2009, 10:07 AM
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Default Re: Sin taxes

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Originally Posted by dick View Post
Perhaps all us "sinners" should take a month or so off from the "sins" and see how that affects the budget.
Oh, they'd just come up with some other way of draining the tax-paying public. Like I said in an earlier post, they want your money folks!
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  #47  
Old March 29th, 2009, 08:33 PM
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Kaonohi Kaonohi is offline
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Default Re: Sin taxes

Sin taxes??

I thought "Sex at noon taxes" - but maybe I read it backwards. (sexat noon ta xeS ?)

Plus:
"However, I believe that those things or activities that when consumed or done do increase the burden on the health care system in the long run such as motorcycle riders w/o helmets," (quoting Stinky)

I think dying from a head injury is cheaper than getting patched up in the hospital for over 6 months from seriously broken bones.... (been there, done that), and I always wonder if I hadn't been wearing a helmet maybe I would have seen or heard the 'cage' that ran me over, and been able to avoid it.
Haven't had an accident since I stopped wearing a helmet.
But, in my 'cage' I have always worn a seat belt, even before they were required.
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Last edited by Kaonohi; March 29th, 2009 at 08:36 PM. Reason: Attribution of quote
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  #48  
Old March 29th, 2009, 09:58 PM
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StinkyTheGrump StinkyTheGrump is offline
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Default Re: Sin taxes

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Originally Posted by Kaonohi View Post
I think dying from a head injury is cheaper than getting patched up in the hospital for over 6 months from seriously broken bones...
Oh riiight, good point. I was actually thinking like the rider w/o a helmet ending up a vegetable/being brain damaged and needing care the rest of his life.

That must have been some wreck! Someone just plowed into you!?
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