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  #1  
Old November 28th, 2008, 06:32 AM
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Default About these attacks in India

It seems that there are more attackers than thought. The fight keeps going on. And, when you look at what's been attacked, some places seem 'funny'..Leopold's Restaurant?

So I've been thinking this over, and here is my conclusion:

The attackers have been there for a while, lots of them, maybe even staying in the hotels. They've been watching and waiting and stocking up on supplies. The night of the attack, other ones came in by boat or whatever, and the fireworks began. Nobod knows right now who are attackers are who are not. Some may have been able to escape and get out by pretending to ba hostages. The ones that haven't been suspected or caught are the ones still communicating with the other ones in other places.

This is the only thing I can think of....mostly because of the restaurant. WHY a restaurant? My theory is that, during their long stay in the hotle while preparatons were being made for the day of the attack, one of them went to the restaurant and got bad service, or didn't like what he was served, or maybe the steak was too done, or somthing...and then the restaurant was put on the shopping list of places to be hit as a sort of revenge.
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Old November 28th, 2008, 02:55 PM
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Default Re: About these attacks in India

More likely, it's a restaurant frequented by Westerners.
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  #3  
Old November 28th, 2008, 03:35 PM
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Default Re: About these attacks in India

I heard on CNN this morning through a reporter in their British bureau that the attackers are believed to be British citizens, hence the ease with which they could enter Mumbai.

Either way, it's a tragedy that I hope will reach its conclusion soon. Interesting Hawaii connection with Raymond Bickson as General Manager of the Taj. Son of Andy Bickson, a founder of Budget Rent-A-Car, and model mom Joan Bickson.

Here's a link, Susie.
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  #4  
Old December 1st, 2008, 09:44 AM
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Default Re: About these attacks in India

Its very hard to believe Pakistan would have been behind the attacks. More like someone who wanted India and the world to believe that Pakistan was. It is hard to imagine a war between India and Pakistan not going nuclear and thats just not something that any sane government would wish on its own country. But you never know, religious crazies don't function in the real world, they believe they are dealing on a spiritual level, so ordinary earthly logic and interests don't apply. The Iraq war, for example--the conversations with God, etc.

On another note, we will shortly be off to the country in Maui for about two weeks, so I will miss the friendly conversations here for a while, and come home tanned and verrrry relaxxxed. Aloha to all.
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Old December 1st, 2008, 11:53 AM
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Default Re: About these attacks in India

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Its very hard to believe Pakistan would have been behind the attacks. More like someone who wanted India and the world to believe that Pakistan was. It is hard to imagine a war between India and Pakistan not going nuclear and thats just not something that any sane government would wish on its own country. But you never know, religious crazies don't function in the real world, they believe they are dealing on a spiritual level, so ordinary earthly logic and interests don't apply. The Iraq war, for example--the conversations with God, etc.
Pretty arrogant level, if you ask me. They think they're God's favorite.

Of course, what do I know? I'm an only child. Never can understand how siblings willing to turn against each other, especially when it comes to gaining loving attention from their parents ... or their parents' estate.
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  #6  
Old December 1st, 2008, 10:41 PM
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Default Re: About these attacks in India

And yet, those attacks remind us of a simple axiom that bears repeating....

"Good men must fight the good fight harder than bad men fight the bad fight.
The alternative is terrifying."

The peaceniks hate the pure simplicity of that fundamental truth.
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Old December 2nd, 2008, 03:13 AM
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Default Re: About these attacks in India

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The peaceniks hate the pure simplicity of that fundamental truth.
Meh. FWIW, they make good shields for the good fighters.

If they don't want us to get into wars, go to our enemies' territory and protest.
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Old December 2nd, 2008, 03:58 AM
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Default Re: About these attacks in India

Quote:
The attackers have been there for a while, lots of them, maybe even staying in the hotels. They've been watching and waiting and stocking up on supplies. The night of the attack, other ones came in by boat or whatever, and the fireworks began. Nobod knows right now who are attackers are who are not.
That's what really scares me. Who knows where else in the world they might be? There's no way to tell. Any day there could be another attack ANYWHERE.

I know this sounds horribly paranoid, and I honestly don't mean for it to. Anyone else with insomnia can say these are the things that creep into your head while you're lying awake at 3 in the morning.
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Old December 2nd, 2008, 12:11 PM
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Default Re: About these attacks in India

This blog entry has an amazingly close picture of one of the gunmen battling police inside the train station.

Here's the original news article the picture came from. The unarmed reporter was braver than the armed police

I suppose to cut the police some slack, they're not used to dealing with well trained militants. And perhaps it was easier for the reporter to be brave because he doesn't face death and violence as often as police do. It's easy to send men into war for the first time. It's harder to send them back in, after they've experienced it.
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Last edited by MyopicJoe; December 2nd, 2008 at 12:20 PM.
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  #10  
Old December 3rd, 2008, 03:53 AM
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Default Re: About these attacks in India

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I suppose to cut the police some slack, they're not used to dealing with well trained militants.
I'd also say that any policeman in a uniform is an automatic target for the terrorist.

A terrorist might actually consider a reporter with a camera as a friend - he will help spread the fear. And that's the whole point.
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Old December 3rd, 2008, 12:24 PM
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Default Re: About these attacks in India

go to our enemies' territory and protest

Protesting is only fun in the comfy confines of a stable, lawful, Democracy.

Half of America does NOT want the rest of the world to have a stable, lawful, Democracy. BTW, that half of America probably disagrees with my statement above. And I'm sure those same folks are thrilled with the continuation of Gates as the Sec of Def. LOL.

Okay, fess up. How many of you don't like the good fight/bad fight axiom above?
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  #12  
Old December 3rd, 2008, 02:30 PM
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Default Re: About these attacks in India

I love how this discussion devolves into points of democracy, protesting, "good guys" versus "bad guys." As if such an over-simplification of terrorist activity would be applicable to the conflicts of today's world.
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Old December 3rd, 2008, 05:34 PM
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Default Re: About these attacks in India

Yes, the 'good fight/bad fight' "axiom" goes well beyond stupidity. Fighting fire with fire may end the fire, but at what cost? Shall we willfully burn down 1,000 homes to 'save' 10,000? If we kill 10 terrorists (disregarding collateral damage) for every 100 victims of terrorism are we winning or losing?

What can we do to make terrorism less attractive and peaceful behavior more attractive? Answering that question is the only sane route toward ending terrorism. Fighting terrorists doesn't address the underlying cause, it only addresses the overt acts (usually on a stage chosen by terrorists). We will never defeat terrorism by fighting terrorists.
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Old December 3rd, 2008, 07:00 PM
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Default Re: About these attacks in India

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What can we do to make terrorism less attractive and peaceful behavior more attractive? Answering that question is the only sane route toward ending terrorism. Fighting terrorists doesn't address the underlying cause, it only addresses the overt acts (usually on a stage chosen by terrorists). We will never defeat terrorism by fighting terrorists.
Amen, Salmoned!!!!!
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  #15  
Old December 4th, 2008, 02:21 AM
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Default Re: About these attacks in India

We will never defeat terrorism by fighting terrorists.

So we just accept it?

Dude, that is not even cool, to me, if it is YOU who is dying. I won't stand for it for one fn minute. No way!!!!!

And if it's my tax dollars, sending my nephew, to some hole in the sand, so that a little girl, just like my daughter, can go to school, without getting her damn legs blown off, then I will pay the money gladly, and bid my wonderful nephew a bon voyage, and good luck. And he is a hero, just like Auntie Lynn's kids. And if you ever find yourself outmatched, I will help you if I am there. Peace demands action, and collective effort. Peace is not free. Nor is it the natural order of things. No matter what some guru, swami, rashneesh, dingbat thinks.

OR....... you better stand back, and enjoy the peaceful tranquility, and be thankful that you have it. And you should wish it upon others, cuz it's good. But you don't have to help. You just cannot be a hindrance either.

Man, this subject torques my bolts.

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  #16  
Old December 4th, 2008, 05:56 AM
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Default Re: About these attacks in India

It might be a good idea to find out what they were so angry about.
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Old December 4th, 2008, 11:17 AM
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Default Re: About these attacks in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by SusieMisajon View Post
It might be a good idea to find out what they were so angry about.
Does this mean you're abandoning the overdone steak theory?

Seriously, though. You're talking about a region of the world that has been in constant turmoil. I don't even know if "angry" is an applicable word anymore: Some of these inherited conflicts seem more about a tradition of enmity than about any kind of momentary emotion like anger. When trouble like this arises in the Middle East, it's generally assumed to be a Muslim/Islam conflict, or in certain areas, conflict between different Muslim sects. When it arises in India, the safe assumption is usually that it has something to do with Kashmir.
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  #18  
Old December 4th, 2008, 12:16 PM
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What can we do to make terrorism less attractive and peaceful behavior more attractive?
Give in to terrorists' demands? After all, they don't seem the type to compromise, unlike us.
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  #19  
Old December 4th, 2008, 07:02 PM
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We will never defeat terrorism by fighting terrorists.
So we just accept it?
See, Tim, this is what I mean by over-simplification; it's not an easy black-or-white proposition. When salmoned says fighting terrorists is not the path to defeating terrorism, he's not saying that you have to accept it - as if that were the only alternative. He's saying (and I hope I am interpreting his wise words correctly) that there are better ways to defeat terrorism. Just chasing after the "bad guys" is like trying to cure a disease by only treating the symptoms - it won't work. The root causes of terrorism, like a disease, still remain and still do their damage. Even capturing or killing Osama bin Laden would do nothing to stop terrorist activity - did the death of Saddam Hussein do it?
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Old December 4th, 2008, 08:07 PM
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Default Re: About these attacks in India

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Yes, the 'good fight/bad fight' "axiom" goes well beyond stupidity.
This entire post by salmoned is their finest effort to date. The post poses many questions that are worth pondering. Salmoned, use your talents to continue in this vein. Maali'e! (way to go)
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Old December 4th, 2008, 10:05 PM
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Default Re: About these attacks in India

Ai yai yai.
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Old December 5th, 2008, 05:10 PM
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A terrorist might actually consider a reporter with a camera as a friend - he will help spread the fear. And that's the whole point.
Good point, GeckoGeek. The media is a useful weapon.


I found this interesting article, by a Jeremy R. Hammond. It's a lot more detailed than the mainstream stuff, which makes me wonder whether it's legit, but it seems so. Perhaps the HT sluthes might verify this source:

http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/..._eye_print.htm

Quote:
On November 18, RAW intercepted a satellite phone conversation made to a number in Lahore, Pakistan, known to be used by the military commander of LeT known alternatively by the names Yusuf Muzammil or Abu Hurrera, also known as “Yahah”. The caller notified his handlers that he was heading for Mumbai with unspecified cargo.

Quote:
Once on shore near the Gateway to India, Mumbai’s main landing point near the Naval dockyard, the team split up. Four men went to the Taj Mahal hotel, where an advance team had already checked in on November 22 and set up a control room. Two went to the Nariman House, the Mumbai headquarters of Chabad Lubavitch, an ultra-orthodox Jewish group. Another acquisitioned a taxi and drove to the railway station. Two others headed to the Leopold restaurant, a hot spot for foreign visitors to Mumbai.

Quote:
According to Pakistan’s Daily Times, the terrorists identified and killed two U.S. intelligence officers at the Taj Mahal hotel.


Quote:
According to police, the men were aged 18 to 28. They were found to have drugs in their system, and traces of cocaine and LSD

Quote:
An Associated Press photo of the confiscated guns reveals what appear to be Heckler & Koch MP5-N sub-machine guns. The “N” model is a version of the MP5 designed specifically for the U.S. Navy and used by Navy Seals teams.

Quote:
BlackBerry cell phones were also recovered from the terrorists, containing international SIM cards

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  #23  
Old December 5th, 2008, 05:33 PM
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Default Re: About these attacks in India

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Originally Posted by matapule View Post
This entire post by salmoned is their finest effort to date. The post poses many questions that are worth pondering. Salmoned, use your talents to continue in this vein. Maali'e! (way to go)
Well, if you insist...

I am not advocating we allow terrorists to wreak havoc unchecked. However, only responding to impending and immediate threats is comparable to only repairing water main breaks and never upgrading the system. The actionable problem is that the current systems can only service limited populations (at minimally acceptable levels of service) and we have exceeded those capacities. Too many people with too little access to resources + a smaller group with overabundant access to resources = one over-arching deficiency (or inequality) from which multifarious, seemingly unrelated problems rain down upon us. One of those problems is terrorism.

On the other hand, what we view as a problem must be considered a possible solution by terrorists themselves. Their access to resources (individually or as communities) is so curbed as to permit them to believe (truly or falsely) that violent, suicidal acts are the best or only means they have to ease their misery, to 'voice' their problems or to exert power to address their problems.
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  #24  
Old December 5th, 2008, 06:43 PM
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Default Re: About these attacks in India

I'm ready to hear a 'better way' Leo, or Salmoned.

Go for it.
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  #25  
Old December 5th, 2008, 07:02 PM
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Default Re: About these attacks in India

Address the root causes - stop assuming that "the American Way" is the best way for the rest of the world - stop imposing our values on other nations - quit manipulating governments against the will of their citizens, just for our own short-term gains/cheaper oil/bargain consumer goods - stop selling arms around the world, then wonder how they got into the hands of somebody else - cease being "the world's police" - put more efforts into providing better opportunities for poorer nations - quit disrespecting people with other religious/political/cultural beliefs - don't invade other countries, just because their leaders pissed off our leaders - start giving a damn about people other than ourselves - shift our focus towards helping relieve the suffering in our own country - get out of the mindset that "we're number one"/"we're the greatest"/"we know what's good for you"
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