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  #1  
Old November 7th, 2007, 06:19 PM
joshuatree joshuatree is offline
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Default Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 5

A question to those who may have the insider info but exactly how low are wages at Mesa compared to their counterparts? When I say counterparts, I mean regional airlines, such as Mesaba or Skywest, not the likes such as United or Delta.
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  #2  
Old November 7th, 2007, 07:26 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

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Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
A question to those who may have the insider info but exactly how low are wages at Mesa compared to their counterparts? When I say counterparts, I mean regional airlines, such as Mesaba or Skywest, not the likes such as United or Delta.
Useful website for seeing what pilots make. Mesa's is the only page that doesn't actually list hourly rates for pilots. For comps, click on "regional" airlines on the right side of the Mesa page (interestingly, Island Air is listed as one of the regionals. It's not hiring and has recalled all its furloughed pilots).

Miulang
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Old November 7th, 2007, 11:46 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

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Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
Useful website for seeing what pilots make. Mesa's is the only page that doesn't actually list hourly rates for pilots. For comps, click on "regional" airlines on the right side of the Mesa page (interestingly, Island Air is listed as one of the regionals. It's not hiring and has recalled all its furloughed pilots).

Miulang
Also take a gander at some of the forums on that same website. Here's a comment from a current Mesa pilot about all the "mishaps" that have occurred recently on Mesa:

Quote:
I am so embarrassed to be a MAG pilot. What a bunch of a** clowns. What a circus. I just can't believe it. What an absolute JOKE, yo. We are the laughing stock of the industry, and have been for a long time anyhow. Those who think we can turn this thing around with a better contract are kidding themselves. Oh, and it looks like our scope-clause got violated yet AGAIN!!!

Here is a rundown of the MAG shinanigans (sp?) over the last year plus:
1. Sued for kicking a pax off for breast feeding in Burlington VA
2. Pilot arrested for stealing out of the TSA security bins
3. Sued by Hawaiian
4. Going to be sued by Aloha
5. Probably going to be sued by Hawaiian again
6. Go is killing us... how much have we lost there so far??? Is it hundreds of millions yet?
6. Canceled vacations
7. Lady dies after making a scene 'cause she was denied boarding in PHX
8. Two separate occasions of scope violations
9. Fined heavily by UAL because we were not staffing adequately
10. Negotiators denied release to begin contract talks (there's only 3 of them, yo- we are that understaffed???)
11. MEGA attrition
12. JA's up the ying-yang
13. A plethora of pilot violations
14. Newhires who can't get it together... 175 hours of IOE? Come on... stop treating IOE pilots and newhires as reserves to fill in the blanks.

Add anything you can think of to the list... this sucks. This just basically sucks. As a MAG pilot, I am such a loser it's incredible yo.
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Old November 8th, 2007, 03:01 AM
Star of Gladness Star of Gladness is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

Everybody has just GOT TO read this!


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Just What Did "Administrative Leave" Mean at Mesa Air Group, Anyway?

For those of you who are followers of the ongoing Mesa Air Group/Hawaiian affair, I have a tidbit to share with you today.

And the most remarkable, ironic, or telling part of all this? (Take your pick.) It comes compliments of Mesa's own website.

It can't get much better than this guys.

Just a hint. If you want to see the pictures we're talking about live, you'd better act fast, because I'm sure they will be removed pretty quickly. Then again, for those of you who aren't quite as fast, don't worry. We've made copies of the page, and the pictures. (We are posting all links below.)

But for those eager beavers who read this quickly enough, if you want to see what interesting thing we found today while scrolling the Mesa website, first, open your browser and go to the Mesa Air Group home page.

Scroll down to the section on the recent launch festivities involving Kunpeng Airlines, the regional joint venture created by Shenzhen Airlines and Mesa Air. Headline is "KunPeng Airlines Launches Services in China." Check out that fake fog while you're at it. (Well it was around Halloween.)

Click on the link that says "MORE" in that section. It will bring up an entire page of full resolution photos. Not minimal JPG sizes. Oh, no, full resolution photographs. (That will become important here in a minute.)

The picture that caught our eye is on the next to the bottom row -- one picture towards the right. It's the one with the huge flower artwork on the wall behind a number of people seated at a long table.

Direct link to the photo.

When the photo is downloaded, it is identified by the Mesa Air Group site with a moniker that includes "Kunpeng Launch." As you can see, it is in a group of other pictures that were clearly also of the various launch festivities. When did this particular occur? Well, the launch was officially Friday the 27th of October. So, it could have been the 26th, the 27th or the 28th.

Now, here's the point of my web adventure.

Look who's seated next to Jonathan Ornstein at the official event. To his right -- with, appropriately, an open laptop in front of him? (I know, at this point it's becoming more and more like a skit from Saturday Night Live.)

While he seems to be somewhat pre-occupied with a napkin in the photo, and not what is on his laptop, there's no question the person seated next to Jonathan is Peter Murnane. In fact, because the photo was uploaded in its full resolution -- you can clearly make out his name on the little white name placeholder in front of him. George Peter Murnane III no less.

But wasn't Peter on administrative leave from the company at the end of October?

A little historical perspective here for those who took a cruise to Alaska in October.

On Sept. 21, Mesa Air Group sent out a press release. In that release, it stated that the Board of Directors of the airline had put Peter Murnane on "administrative leave." In the press release, Mesa CEO Jonathan Ornstein said, "Our policy is to comply with only the highest ethical standards of conduct and, if we become aware of a potential or alleged violation of such standards, to conduct an appropriate investigation and to take appropriate remedial action when warranted. We will report the outcome of the Company's investigation as soon as it is completed."

"Until the investigation is complete, William Hoke, Vice President of Finance will continue to be responsible for the financial and accounting functions of the Company and will perform the duties of Mr. Murnane," the release said.

As you recall, it was just a few days later that U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Robert Faris ruled that Murnane had intentionally destroyed files that Mesa hadused before launching its airline go! These files had been sought as part of the trial's discovery process.This was the ruling that came after the porn-made-me-do-it defense by Murnane.

I'll let all of you talk amongst yourselves about this. Goodness knows there is enough to chew on.

Last edited by Star of Gladness; November 8th, 2007 at 03:04 AM.
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  #5  
Old November 8th, 2007, 09:23 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

Star, yes I saw those pictures too. They have been removed now from mesa-air.com. go! figure?

All the executives at Aloha saw them early this morning. It is very safe to say Mesa's defense come next April is getting weaker by the minute. These idiots truly are their own worst enemies.

I can't belive he had his laptop open and was wiping his hands with a napkin! I forgot to check if there was a bottle of hand lotion on the table!

Oh the comedy.

Thanks for posting the links!
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  #6  
Old November 9th, 2007, 06:22 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

Ornstein claims that the reason why Peter Murnane was in China with him, even though he was put on administrative leave the week before, is because Murnane was on the original Board of Directors of Kunpeng Airlines and it was out of courtesy to the Chinese that Murnane was invited along.

I think I can understand why Ornstein wanted to do business with Shenzen. Seems that that company also is expanding its sphere of influence in China by setting up more partnerships, much like how Mesa got its start in this country.

Birds of a feather? And they're planning to take the company public to raise $1 billion next year.

Miulang
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Old November 10th, 2007, 10:39 AM
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Default Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

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Seems that that company also is expanding its sphere of influence in China by setting up more partnerships, much like how Mesa got its start in this country.

Birds of a feather? And they're planning to take the company public to raise $1 billion next year.

Miulang
And Mesa may end up handing over all of it to Aloha. The irony is that Aloha's founders, the Tonggs and the the Chings and Ings always wanted to fly Hawaii to China.

After this April comes, it is entirely plausible that Mesa ends up handing over their China assets to Aloha in order to satisfy the whopping judgement that this way comes.

Lets see, how's this scenario. Aloha's ETOPS certificate is used to connect Mesa's US mainland route structure with mainland China. Overnight Aloha could become 4 times as big as Hawaiian.

Ron Burkle ends up making some nice coin on Aloha after all and with Bethune's connections they re-fleet with 787's and start "spreading da aloha" globally.

JO ends up in criminal court frowning and wearing an orange jumpsuit for all the world to see.

These guys are going to jail and laughing all the way there. Here JO is already practicing his new position...


"HAHAHAHA what a big joke! Lets go to Hawaii and defraud Aloha then brag about it everywhere else we go".

These men are hollow skulled imbeciles.

These two idiots aren't half as smart as guys like Karl Rove or Ken Lay and they still went to jail. It is only a matter of time. So sad!
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  #8  
Old November 10th, 2007, 03:55 PM
joshuatree joshuatree is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

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Ron Burkle ends up making some nice coin on Aloha after all and with Bethune's connections they re-fleet with 787's and start "spreading da aloha" globally.
Even if you put down an order today, you won't get a 787 till probably 5 years out based on Boeing's backlog and delay.
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Old November 10th, 2007, 09:42 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

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Even if you put down an order today, you won't get a 787 till probably 5 years out based on Boeing's backlog and delay.
Trust me, there are several leasing companies that are very high on the list of deliveries. I can tell you if somebody wants one bad enough, they will be able to get the airplane almost immediately. Now getting 12 of them might take some time.
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Old November 11th, 2007, 12:05 AM
joshuatree joshuatree is offline
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Trust me, there are several leasing companies that are very high on the list of deliveries. I can tell you if somebody wants one bad enough, they will be able to get the airplane almost immediately. Now getting 12 of them might take some time.
ILFC is the leasing company that has purchased the most 787s amongst leasing companies and AQ is a client of ILFC. But the question is, will AQ pay an arm and a leg just for some bragging rights? It would probably make more sense to snag up used 767s and refurb them like HA, especially when the 787s do roll out in large numbers, you'll probably be able to find deals on used 767s.
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Old November 11th, 2007, 10:33 AM
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Default Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

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ILFC is the leasing company that has purchased the most 787s amongst leasing companies and AQ is a client of ILFC. But the question is, will AQ pay an arm and a leg just for some bragging rights? It would probably make more sense to snag up used 767s and refurb them like HA, especially when the 787s do roll out in large numbers, you'll probably be able to find deals on used 767s.
No airline will be buying 787's for "bragging rights". The 787 will have the lowest costs of any widebody in the sky. The lease rates on 767's will tank once 787's are produced in significant numbers. The 767 is the 707 of the future.

Whoever is not flying the 787 by 2010 will be at a severe disadvantage to their competitors that are.
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Old November 11th, 2007, 05:32 PM
joshuatree joshuatree is offline
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No airline will be buying 787's for "bragging rights". The 787 will have the lowest costs of any widebody in the sky. The lease rates on 767's will tank once 787's are produced in significant numbers. The 767 is the 707 of the future.

Whoever is not flying the 787 by 2010 will be at a severe disadvantage to their competitors that are.
I agree the 787 effectively replaces the 767 but 2010's too early. All the leasing companies won't even get their first 787s till around 2010, 2009 the earliest. And the first 787s for leasing companies have already been leased out for 10-12 year leases so I still don't see AQ being able to get one in the near future. Unless.....AQ spends a chunk of change just to get one which is why I called it bragging rights. Delta, United, and American are still only in preliminary talks about ordering the 787. So the 767s still have a decent amount of life left in the passenger market. If you factor in cost of new 787 vs cost savings of 787 and then compare that to picking up a cheap,used 767 vs less cost efficient, the 767 might come out as the better deal for the next 5 years for a smaller airline.
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Old November 11th, 2007, 07:47 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

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I agree the 787 effectively replaces the 767 but 2010's too early. All the leasing companies won't even get their first 787s till around 2010, 2009 the earliest. And the first 787s for leasing companies have already been leased out for 10-12 year leases so I still don't see AQ being able to get one in the near future. Unless.....AQ spends a chunk of change just to get one which is why I called it bragging rights. Delta, United, and American are still only in preliminary talks about ordering the 787. So the 767s still have a decent amount of life left in the passenger market. If you factor in cost of new 787 vs cost savings of 787 and then compare that to picking up a cheap,used 767 vs less cost efficient, the 767 might come out as the better deal for the next 5 years for a smaller airline.
agreed the 767 will still be around for a while. Its fun to think that one day they will be a dime a dozen though. Right now one of those tiny single engine Caravans at Pacific Wings are more expensive than a 727 or 707. Try this google search "boeing 707 for sale". With a little bargaining, for the price of a new Caravan I could get two 707's right now.
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Old November 15th, 2007, 03:02 AM
Star of Gladness Star of Gladness is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii's Interisland Air War - Chapter 4

Ornstein is majorly pissed with Holly Hegemann the girl that runs planebuzz.com I guess she posted some pictures of Ornstein and Murnane together in China AFTER they fired him.

Ornstein has now sued Holly. http://www.planebuzz.com/2007/11/mes...planebuzz.html

What a bully and a coward. I can't believe he would sue a girl! It's all about his ego!
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Old November 15th, 2007, 10:17 PM
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Just saw the Aloha 737-800 coming in for landing into Kahului about 2p.m. I`m not sure but this could be the 1st run for Sacramento. Blessing for the aircraft named Makali`i was held yesterday. Anyone know the scoops, is the flight coming in from Sacramento on the B737-700 to end in OGG. Is the Leased 737-800 to continue from there? Al-Anon, do you have the scoops!!!!
Oggboy
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Old November 16th, 2007, 11:45 AM
Star of Gladness Star of Gladness is offline
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Just saw the Aloha 737-800 coming in for landing into Kahului about 2p.m. I`m not sure but this could be the 1st run for Sacramento. Blessing for the aircraft named Makali`i was held yesterday. Anyone know the scoops, is the flight coming in from Sacramento on the B737-700 to end in OGG. Is the Leased 737-800 to continue from there? Al-Anon, do you have the scoops!!!!
Oggboy
Theres pictures of the airplane here http://hnlrarebirds.blogspot.com/
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Old November 19th, 2007, 04:06 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Yikes! Bad day on the stock market today. Mesa's shares were down 9 cents, now trading at $3.90 (less than half the price of a share when go! first started) and HA lost 11 cents and is trading at $4.66.

Miulang
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Old November 19th, 2007, 06:54 PM
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Yikes! Bad day on the stock market today. Mesa's shares were down 9 cents, now trading at $3.90 (less than half the price of a share when go! first started) and HA lost 11 cents and is trading at $4.66.

Miulang
go! also must post 90 million bond to top it off!!!!
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Old November 19th, 2007, 08:02 PM
joshuatree joshuatree is offline
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go! also must post 90 million bond to top it off!!!!
I read somewhere that they were having an insurance front the money for now? Add a few years for appeals and who knows what the situation might be then.
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Old November 19th, 2007, 08:56 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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I read somewhere that they were having an insurance front the money for now? Add a few years for appeals and who knows what the situation might be then.
It's probably going to take 2-3 years before HA can collect. Hopefully there will be something left to collect by then. I'm hearing rumors on some of the Mesa forums that they may just become an airplane leasing company soon. And who knows what AQ might get out of them in their lawsuit.

And besides the lawsuits in Hawaii, Mesa also is having serious desertion among their pilot ranks and their contract talks with ALPA have not gone too well thus far. The last contract expired in Sept.

Miulang
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Last edited by Miulang; November 19th, 2007 at 08:59 PM.
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Old November 20th, 2007, 02:57 AM
Star of Gladness Star of Gladness is offline
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I read somewhere that they were having an insurance front the money for now? Add a few years for appeals and who knows what the situation might be then.
Mesa airlines and www.iflygo.com will be just a bad memory in a few years.
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Old November 20th, 2007, 03:00 AM
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It's probably going to take 2-3 years before HA can collect. Hopefully there will be something left to collect by then. I'm hearing rumors on some of the Mesa forums that they may just become an airplane leasing company soon. And who knows what AQ might get out of them in their lawsuit.

And besides the lawsuits in Hawaii, Mesa also is having serious desertion among their pilot ranks and their contract talks with ALPA have not gone too well thus far. The last contract expired in Sept.

Miulang
I think one day www.iflygo.com and KungPeng Airlines will all belong to Aloha
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Old November 20th, 2007, 07:34 PM
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Interesting little PR piece about the Board of Mesa extending JO's employment contract for another 3 years.

Quote:
Dan Altobello, the Lead Director of the Company's Board of Directors, stated, "Ten years ago, when I joined the Board and Jonathan Ornstein and Mike Lotz joined Mesa, the Company had revenue of $423 million and had lost $54 million in the previous fiscal year. Since that time we have grown to over $1.4 billion in revenue, and since 9/11 earned operating profits on a pro-forma basis in 26 of 27 quarters, regained our partnership with United Airlines, formed a new partnership with Delta, added approximately 150 regional jets to our fleet, named Regional Airline of the Year in 2005 and provided unsurpassed job security and opportunity for our employees. All this was achieved during what has to have been the most difficult environment for airlines in history. The Board of Directors strongly believes that given the challenges the Company faces today it was important to demonstrate our support of management and to ensure the continuing services of Jonathan, Mike and Brian. We are similarly pleased that these members of our executive team have indicated their long term commitment to the Company by agreeing to extend the terms of their employment agreements for the additional three years."
Heh. Wonder how low Ornstein will take Mesa stock? The lowest it's been in the last 52 weeks is $3.63/share. Today it closed at $3.59 and went as low as $3.43. Soon it'll become a penny stock at the rate things are going. And United has fined Mesa for some nice money for not upholding their United Express contract, so could that marriage be on the rocks again?

Miulang
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Old November 20th, 2007, 10:33 PM
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Interesting little PR piece about the Board of Mesa extending JO's employment contract for another 3 years.
All smoke & mirrors. Jonathan Ornstein will be out soon enough. You dont give away half an airline in a judgement and keep your job.
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Old December 9th, 2007, 02:15 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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JO racks up another dubious distinction this year: "Worst CEO of the year".

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Away from financial services, Mesa Air's (MESA) Jonathan Ornstein received the most write-in votes by employees, investors and employees of competitors. (It was an impressive, concerted campaign.) Not only does the company suffer the lowest margins and boast the worst-performing stock among regional airlines, with "skyrocketing" pilot attrition (per an Air Line Pilots Association press release), but it recently was embarrassed after a judge ruled that Mesa must pay $80 million to Hawaiian Air for using confidential, proprietary information to start its inter-island Hawaiian competitor, "go!" (Mesa says it plans to appeal.)
Miulang
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Last edited by Miulang; December 9th, 2007 at 02:22 PM.
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