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  • #76
    Re: Rail Transit

    Originally posted by Composite 2992 View Post
    It's not zero emissions as it still gets electricity from a powerplant. But that powerplant is heavily filtered and the emissions are cleaner than the average car.
    And even that is not necessarily true forever. Electricity can come from many sources, and Hawai`i is particularly wealthy in renewable power if people would harness it. Geothermal, tidal, wind, solar, ...

    You can also have electric cars, but lemme count the number of those in production on my fingers... oh yeah, those golf cart tourist things

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    • #77
      Re: Rail Transit

      Latest from Starbulletin.

      Parsons Brinckerhoff Quade and Douglas Inc., the consulting firm that conducted a study of transit alternatives for the city, estimated the cost of constructing such a managed lane alternative at $2.6 billion, with financing costs of $1.1 billion, for a total of nearly $3.9 billion.

      So it looks like building another highway ain't such a cheap deal either.

      By the way, I took a look at honolulutraffic.com. Their biggest hype is to build a reversible tollway like the one built in Tampa. A 9 mile, 3 lane, reversible elevated highway built over the center median of an existing highway that charges $1 toll for every vehicle. Cost is about $320 million as they put it. Oh yeah, it didn't cost the taxpayers anything because they didn't raise any new taxes for this project. And if we build one, it's also eligible for federal funding.

      Sounds great but here's what they don't tell you.

      - The project had issues, sections of it collapsed, so the final price tag is $420 million. And I'm not even sure if that's in 2006 dollars since the original idea was floated in 1995.

      - No new taxes were raised but the local gov't raised bonds to cover the expense of the project and hopes to recoup the cost through tolls. Last time I checked, raising bonds still means the taxpayer owes money, maybe not right away in the form of taxes but it's still a debt the taxpayer owes. Nice marketing spin though.

      - They are raising the tolls to $1.50 in 2007, 2 years ahead of schedule. That's for 9 miles. So supposedly if we build like the full length of rail, that would mean maybe a 27-mile reversible tollway for us? So the toll be about $4.50?

      - The required median width used to build the Tampa tollway is 46 feet. Where at any section of our H1 do we have a 46 foot wide center median to be available for use?

      - The federal New Start funding program may not be available for building a tollway. Per FTA's website.

      Projects eligible for New Starts (49 USC §5309) funding include any fixed guideway system which utilizes and occupies a separate right-of-way, or rail line, for the exclusive use of mass transportation and other high occupancy vehicles, or uses a fixed centenary system and a right-of-way usable by other forms of transportation.

      Keyword is "exclusive", if you build a tollway where any car can use it after paying a toll, that highway is no longer exclusive for mass transportation (buses).

      So after paying for this tollway in the form of bonds and tolls, I still gotta drive myself in my own car and pay for my gas and wear and tear to get from A to B? How is that a cheaper option to rail?
      Last edited by joshuatree; November 4, 2006, 01:03 PM.

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      • #78
        Re: Rail Transit

        Tollways are actually efficient ways to cut down on unnecessary traffic and single car commuters and prevent taxes from being raised. Only those who use the roads would pay for the right to drive on it. The downside is, if there are alternate routes through a community, those feeder streets would probably experience increased traffic because of the numbers of people who want to avoid having to pay that toll, which invariably would cause dangerous situations in neighborhoods.

        There is no one solution to traffic congestion, but giving people alternatives so they can choose how much pain they're willing to bear is the only way to solve the problem. For people in a hurry, paying a premium to drive alone to work is something they will have to consider. For those who are looking for cheaper ways to commute, public transportation is more cost effective, but it does mean having to be a little more rigorous about schedules and making some compromises.

        How much is it worth to a person to not have to sit in a car on a congested highway by instead travelling above all of it, possibly being crammed into a box with many other people, maybe getting a little exercise by walking a few blocks to/from a station and being a slave to a transit schedule that may be a little inconvenient?

        Miulang
        "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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        • #79
          Re: Rail Transit

          Would raising the driving age to say 18 help cut down on traffic? Just a thought.

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          • #80
            Re: Rail Transit

            Originally posted by manoasurfer123 View Post
            Would raising the driving age to say 18 help cut down on traffic? Just a thought.
            One group would be extremely pleased with that idea: parents who now often buy their high school-aged kids brand new cars so they can drive to school while the parents make do with their clunkers.

            Miulang
            "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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            • #81
              Re: Rail Transit

              Originally posted by Bard View Post
              And even that is not necessarily true forever. Electricity can come from many sources, and Hawai`i is particularly wealthy in renewable power if people would harness it. Geothermal, tidal, wind, solar, ...
              Solar needs to be given a lot more serious consideration, especially with the gradual price drop and how much sun we get year 'round.

              Well, I drive a hybrid. And am considering solar-powering the house. I am by no means considered a "green earth" type by any means. But I'm in certainly in favor of making the most of our limited resources and maintaining a decent quality of life.

              My other car is an SUV. But that is used mostly to haul heavy, bulky gear used for work. Or to tow a trailer.

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: Rail Transit

                Originally posted by Composite 2992 View Post
                Solar needs to be given a lot more serious consideration, especially with the gradual price drop and how much sun we get year 'round.
                You might want to look into the environmental impact of solar cell manufacturing. There's some really nasty stuff that's used and quite a bit of energy. They are working on that, but I'm not sure how far they've gotten. I didn't see a recent paper in my quick search. I found a nearly 10 year old paper that said they think they can get the energy payback down to a year or two years depending on the panel type. That's energy payback, not dollar.

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                • #83
                  Re: Rail Transit

                  Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
                  You might want to look into the environmental impact of solar cell manufacturing. There's some really nasty stuff that's used and quite a bit of energy. They are working on that, but I'm not sure how far they've gotten. I didn't see a recent paper in my quick search. I found a nearly 10 year old paper that said they think they can get the energy payback down to a year or two years depending on the panel type. That's energy payback, not dollar.
                  If you count lead acid battery storage, then there's a major potential for environmental damage if those things aren't properly recycled. Just like car batteries that are too often dumped along the roadside.

                  I figure investment payback would come in about 20 years, based on what it costs to install a system large enough to run my house, and what we're currently (no pun intended) paying for electricity.

                  If this were done on a much larger scale, let's say if a major percentage of homes were to install solar electric panels, then there would be less need for transmission lines and a reduced need for plant expansion.

                  But all this digresses from the original topic of a rail transit system...

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                  • #84
                    Re: Rail Transit

                    Originally posted by Composite 2992 View Post
                    If you count lead acid battery storage, then there's a major potential for environmental damage if those things aren't properly recycled. Just like car batteries that are too often dumped along the roadside.

                    I figure investment payback would come in about 20 years, based on what it costs to install a system large enough to run my house, and what we're currently (no pun intended) paying for electricity.

                    If this were done on a much larger scale, let's say if a major percentage of homes were to install solar electric panels, then there would be less need for transmission lines and a reduced need for plant expansion.

                    But all this digresses from the original topic of a rail transit system...
                    Well, if the gov't has any vision, they could cough up the extra few dollars (compared to the price tag of the rail), and install solar panels running the entire length of the elevated railway. All that power generated throughout the day gets fed back into HECO's grid for credits and to avoid the need for batteries. This should offset the power that rail will draw from HECO.

                    And a random thought here, but they should probably plant vines around each of the concrete pillars used to elevate the rail. Makes it look a little greener and more importantly, discourages graffiti. Kinda hard to tag over plants.

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                    • #85
                      Re: Rail Transit

                      Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                      And a random thought here, but they should probably plant vines around each of the concrete pillars used to elevate the rail. Makes it look a little greener and more importantly, discourages graffiti. Kinda hard to tag over plants.
                      The city here lets vines grow all over the walls separating freeways from neighborhood. It's beautiful, especially in the fall when they are all changing yellow and red (guess you guys wouldn't get that though )

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                      • #86
                        Re: Rail Transit

                        So....one newspaper says the rail is gonna cost

                        150 MILLION per year to maintain, and we're still talking about whether we want it, or not?~!~

                        Uh, on this very thread, wasn't it? dang I better get more caffeine, LOL someone posted to me that rail won't cost much more or any more than roads to maintain, and suggested we can't even afford to keep our potholes fixed, so bring on the rail.

                        Uh...help me here! More than ten MILLION A MONTH to have rail AFTER we're further taxed to build it?! We don't spend that stinkin much on potholes, no way!

                        Rail? my wallet's screaming, MUFI, are you listening?~~

                        I ain't gonna use it, but of course if I was hearing from others that they are, okay fine, leaves en emptier road for me, but...

                        they ain't either!
                        Stop being lost in thought where our problems thrive.~

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                        • #87
                          Re: Rail Transit

                          Hmm....I found the Honolulu Advertiser saying it will be over $120 mil to operate and maintain the system and to subsidize fares to keep them low.

                          But, according to the DOT 2005 annual report, for Oahu.

                          $12 mil to install ADA improvements and emergency telephones.
                          $28 mil in roadway resurfacing, rehabilitation, and repair projects.
                          $13 mil in intersection improvements along Nimitz.
                          $48 mil on H3 to install fiber optic/comm lines, tv cameras, & monitoring equipment.

                          So that already is $101 million. Wonder how much was the tab to power them street lights and traffic lights? How about street cleaning? These amounts don't include the amount you spent maintaining your car for 2005.

                          There's also another $230 million in constructions projects that are ongoing. These projects involve resurfacing, rehabilitation, and repair. No new roads. All operation and maintenance.

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                          • #88
                            Re: Rail Transit

                            Originally posted by Composite 2992 View Post
                            If you count lead acid battery storage, then there's a major potential for environmental damage if those things aren't properly recycled. Just like car batteries that are too often dumped along the roadside.
                            At least you can see the "big picture". Frankly I think our existing system is rather environmentally benign. The problem is the volume.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Re: Rail Transit

                              Originally posted by Karen View Post
                              I ain't gonna use it, but of course if I was hearing from others that they are, okay fine, leaves en emptier road for me, but...

                              they ain't either!
                              That's be biggest worry. Who's gong to ride this thing? I live and work near downtown. I won't be riding it.

                              Even if I moved out of downtown, I'd still be taking my car. I need a car to visit customers. My employer pays the parking stall, so I don't care what it costs to park downtown. Short of a careerer change, I can't see myself on mass transit. But if I'm paying or it, I dang well want to make sure it's getting used!

                              So what's it going to take to get the average commuter on mass transit and not just those who can't afford to drive?

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: Rail Transit

                                Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                                install solar panels running the entire length of the elevated railway. All that power generated throughout the day gets fed back into HECO's grid for credits and to avoid the need for batteries. This should offset the power that rail will draw from HECO.
                                Using the grid as a battery has it's limits. Secondly, you're talking about the same HECO that had a 12+ hour black out when 12% if their generation suddenly went off line. Think they can handle a sudden cloud?

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