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  • #61
    Re: Rail Transit

    The keiki are a good point actually. I see huge groups of kids here (30+) quite often in the spring, taking the MAX downtown to the zoo or Chinese gardens, or what have you. No school bus needed. Just pile 'em in and pity the other riders

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: Rail Transit

      In 50 years, SEVERAL trains will be a small piece of an overall transit solution that will include buses, more roads for cars, higher density nodal living environments, and zoning practice rooted in social science, not political gain.

      Of course the train is a good idea. So is a ferry system on the South Shore, and the West Side of Big Island. So is a road over/under Pearl to Ewa. If you think a shortage of gasoline will eliminate the POV, you are incorrect. ALL roads will need to be widened or DECKED in the coming 50 years to accomodate the inevitable increase in usage. There needs to be a MAJOR increase in large-scale, ocean-access infrastucture in the State of Hawaii.

      Do not be so shortsighted as the think that this or that solution is the whole story. They must ALL be utilized.
      FutureNewsNetwork.com
      Energy answers are already here.

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: Rail Transit

        I'm not so sure about a bridge or a tunnel cutting across Pearl Harbor. First of all, I really doubt the US Navy's about to approve of that, especially post 9/11 mentality. Even if somehow approval is obtained, a bridge high enough (think Golden Gate), so that naval ships can still navigate under it will be such an eyesore. And remember, this is Hawaii, where everyone is extra sensitive to eyesores.

        So the other option is a tunnel. I don't think Pearl Harbor's that deep so the easiest tunnel method of digging a trench and dropping in prefab concrete segments won't work. Which means actually having to bore beneath the harbor. Do people who support the concept of a tunnel/bridge really think that will be cheap? And how many entrances and exits can you really have? This means it really only serves best the two endpoints. All neighborhoods in between get bypassed.

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: Rail Transit

          NO to the rail! I am not going to use it and don't want to pay for it. Everytime they tell us what something on this island will cost, it costs way more, probably cuz of the sometimes absurd union wages.

          Building highways above all already existing highways is the way to go, it clutters less of the island and we all get to still use our cars.

          No one but one bus rider that I know has said that they are going to use the rail. Where to park to meet the rail, then get back to their car, then stop at the store, and do errands on the way home, nope.....what is going to happen years from now is we may have a very expensive rail system and they'll be begging us to use it.

          Most of us like our cars, the privacy and freedom they afford us to do things on our schedules, not the system's, and we are not going to park our cars and stop using them.

          To hell with rail....
          Stop being lost in thought where our problems thrive.~

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Rail Transit

            When I attended UH and rode the bus from Pearl City I sorely wished for an alternative.

            Those who claim the bus will work just fine haven't really used it much. If they did, they'd soon find out that to get from Leeward Oahu to Manoa takes about 2 hours each way.

            Imagine spending 4 hours of each day just commuting!

            When working near downtown I often rode my bike 17 miles from the office to home near Crestview. Took just over an hour. Add well-designed bikeways, lanes and paths to the list.

            If we intend to allow more people to live on Oahu, mass transit isn't just an option. It's a must-have. Along with other means of transit.

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: Rail Transit

              People here are too lazy to use a rail system. Rail involves a lot of walking, which people in Hawaii simply refuse to do.

              "Cripes, I gotta walk eight blocks to the station, then another five to work?"

              When I lived in Japan, I walked 20 minutes from home to the station, rode an hour in a cramped train, then walked another 25 minutes to my office. Lather, rinse, repeat at night... And that was a "pleasant" commute.

              I think something like that would be too healthy for the average Hawaii commuter who is addicted to his/her car.

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: Rail Transit

                Originally posted by Karen View Post
                NO to the rail! I am not going to use it and don't want to pay for it. Everytime they tell us what something on this island will cost, it costs way more, probably cuz of the sometimes absurd union wages.

                Building highways above all already existing highways is the way to go, it clutters less of the island and we all get to still use our cars.

                No one but one bus rider that I know has said that they are going to use the rail. Where to park to meet the rail, then get back to their car, then stop at the store, and do errands on the way home, nope.....what is going to happen years from now is we may have a very expensive rail system and they'll be begging us to use it.

                Most of us like our cars, the privacy and freedom they afford us to do things on our schedules, not the system's, and we are not going to park our cars and stop using them.

                To hell with rail....
                Thanks Karen. Best post in this thread.

                To add to the cost estimate, this item appeared at HonoluluTraffic.com:


                The Mayor gives a whole new meaning to the word 'frugal.' And judging from the reactions we have heard in the past 24 hours, the public is not buying it.

                That is because the public knows that elected officials will not be satisfied until they build the entire $4.7 billion rail line.

                In addition, the public knows that there are going to be significant cost overruns of somewhere between 25 and 50 percent — now we are up to $6 to $8 billion.

                That is before we get to the interest since the City does not have much cash and will have to borrow all but the $500 million in federal money. This will come from the sale of bonds. If we just pay the 5.5 percent interest on the bonds, that will be $385 million annually.

                Only paying the interest would not be too wise since at 25 years out the bills for extensive multi billion rebuild and refurbishing will start coming due. Best we pay off the capital by 25 years out. Let's see, $7 billion paid off with interest at 5.5 percent will take $520 million annually. To that we have to add $75 million annually in additional operating losses over and above the $100+ million for TheBus. Altogether that is about $600 million annually or four times what the ½ percent tax hike will bring in.
                The taxpayers cannot afford this.

                Opposed to rail? Join HonoluluTraffic.com

                I'm still here. Are you?

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Rail Transit

                  Originally posted by Karen View Post
                  Building highways above all already existing highways is the way to go, it clutters less of the island and we all get to still use our cars.
                  I work in transportation and believe me double-decking is very expensive. Not that it won't ultimately happen but it's not a complete solution in any case. I think if you can't make rail work on an island you can't make it work anywhere.
                  “First we fought the preliminary round for the k***s and now we’re gonna fight the main event for the n*****s."
                  http://hollywoodbitchslap.com/review...=416&printer=1

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Rail Transit

                    I grew up using Golden Gate Transit & BART in the SF Bay Area. Could get from my house in Sonoma County to a Giants or Raiders Game in under 2 hours easy. My home town had the "Schooner Buses" which held about 26 people each. A whole fleet of them ran "out & back" from the center of town to all the suburbs. The Ferry System on SF Bay is most excellent. Cal Train will get you to San Jose. You should see the TransBay Terminal in the heart of San Francisco !!! Got Buses, Subway's, Trains, Taxi's, you name it. With a real close freeway on & off ramp, and lot's of parking nearby.

                    The essential problem is the preference for low density growth (subdivisions) by the majority of a woefully miseducated, yet literate and vociferous crowd of "do-gooders".

                    "Tall structures are an eyesore."
                    "We must protect the view."
                    "Who want's to live in a rabbit hutch?"
                    "Zoning won't allow it."


                    Sit down kiddies, and let ol' Unco Tim tell you a story. A long time ago, about 112 years or so, there was no such thing as the automobile. Without the automobile, there was no such thing as subdivisions. Everybody lived in buildings up to 5 or 6 stories tall, and the buildings were very close together. Public Transit systems were wide-spread on the micro & macro level. New York & Chicago had world class train systems that carried nearly everybody. And when you looked out to the country, you saw orchards & livestock, instead of concrete and latchkey children.

                    The separation of CITY and Country was clear and well defined. People who know would tell you that it's not the car that is the villain. It is the subdivision, or low-density growth in general. You can protect the view, or you can protect the land. It's time to realize which is the better choice. Most especially for those who cling desperately to their suburbs and SUV's.
                    FutureNewsNetwork.com
                    Energy answers are already here.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Rail Transit

                      Originally posted by dick View Post
                      People here are too lazy to use a rail system. Rail involves a lot of walking, which people in Hawaii simply refuse to do.

                      "Cripes, I gotta walk eight blocks to the station, then another five to work?"

                      When I lived in Japan, I walked 20 minutes from home to the station, rode an hour in a cramped train, then walked another 25 minutes to my office. Lather, rinse, repeat at night... And that was a "pleasant" commute.

                      I think something like that would be too healthy for the average Hawaii commuter who is addicted to his/her car.
                      People rather pay expensive gym fees to get their workouts.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Rail Transit

                        Originally posted by sinjin View Post
                        I work in transportation and believe me double-decking is very expensive. Not that it won't ultimately happen but it's not a complete solution in any case. I think if you can't make rail work on an island you can't make it work anywhere.
                        Hey sinjin, I'm curious, did you go to the western district transportation conference that happened at the Royal Hawaiian back at the end of June?

                        Edit:
                        Originally posted by mel
                        To add to the cost estimate, this item appeared at HonoluluTraffic.com
                        I love the bulletin on there about the Portland light rail's security issues. I've used the thing almost every day since we moved here, which was over 3 years ago, and very rarely have I ever had any issues. My wife uses it at all hours of the day by herself and never has any problems. Much less than when I used buses previously. And yeah, I go/have gone past some pretty "bad" spots, including the listed Holladay Park. It attracts its share of odd people, but then so do all the bus transit centers.

                        The funny thing too is what they are leaving out of that report: The "worst" spots are the transit centers that meet up with bus lines, like Lombard TC, and the zone barrier stops. Most of the stops on the MAX are incredibly tame. Holladay Park/Lloyd Center is the last stop in fareless square, where the freebies have to get off or get tickets. 82nd is the last stop before Zone 3. And those areas were pretty bad even before they put MAX stops in.

                        You want to talk about crime attraction, take a look at PortlandMaps.com some time, at the overall crime levels map. There's a nice red (aka high crime) line going right along I-84, which includes both Lloyd Center and 82nd. Those red areas follow a lot of major streets/highways. Oooo it must be the evil cars causing it!
                        Last edited by Bard; November 3, 2006, 11:21 AM. Reason: Added

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Rail Transit

                          Sinjin.....very expensive? you pay for it one time...to build. Rail? Oh, the maintenace, the repairs! the energy to make the thing RUN!! and it will clutter even more of the island, and people will not use it, sorry but I am not being a smart aleck, it will not catch on, plus our having the bus people, not happening. We all are short for time, rush rush, and so when out, we need to make several stops, redeeming our time. Rail is not going to catch on, I am one of many that won't even bother trying to use it, and maybe, once....I will ride it for pure fun, and then.....I'll know why I am not bothering to use it.

                          Double decker highways, then we just have to keep them paved, big deal....and we all get to keep using our own private autos, less germs, no privacy intrusion, Much more time usage, and look, twice the highways! and much less congestion.

                          I like Mufi a lot, glad I voted for him, and have contacted him to let him know that in all respect, kindness etc....

                          I am not going to use rail and this is what I am haering from most that I know. Just fact...
                          Stop being lost in thought where our problems thrive.~

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Rail Transit

                            Karen, to build the rail is also a one time cost. If you want to count the cost of maintenance, repairs, and energy bill, then you need to count the cost of your car ownership - maintenance, repairs, gas, insurance.

                            To simply just repave a highway is the same as just maintaining a rail line, you only need to occasionally replace a rail or two. Repaving of highways is usually paid for by the taxes on the gas you buy. So that's a cost people pay but don't usually notice. And Oahu has/had for the longest time, the problem of potholes on the roads. We can't even address them properly, what happens when the number of potholes double due to a double decker highway?

                            If you don't want more clutter on the island, why would you want more roads? Why would you want to encourage the trend of more car ownership? More paved asphalt means more heat island effect, making the area feel hotter cuz the black asphalt act as giant heat sinks. I don't know your schedule personally so maybe your lifestyle doesn't fit rail but for every person that uses rail, that's one less person you have to deal with on the road so it still benefits you. What stops do you need to make on your car commute? To pay bills? To buy groceries? What if over time, stores pop up around rail stations that provide these services to you? Would that not replace the stops you need to make by car right now?

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: Rail Transit

                              At a projected cost of $6 billion, rail is not cheap. But let's compare real costs.l=

                              We pay about 45 cents per mile to operate a car, according to Edmunds. At 10,000 miles per year, that's $4,500 a year per car, plus the cost of the car. In five years that comes to about $50,000, depending on how much is paid for the car. There are 987,598 vehicles registered in Hawaii. Which means in the past five years we spent $49.37 billion (more or less) owning and operating our cars, trucks and motorcycles.

                              According to state and county tax data, in 2005 we used approximately 39 million gallons of gas a month at a cost of about $2.90 a gallon. Or 468 million gallons of gas. That's $1.35 billion a year just for gas. Of course this is included in the operation costs, but it gives you an idea of how much gas we're burning in our little island state.

                              All this doesn't take into account the costs of inevitable accidents along with the property damage and injuries they cause, the insurance overhead, and the projected loss of productivity due to people being temporarily incapacitated.

                              Rail costs a fraction of what we spend on cars and trucks. It is a lot more efficient with fuel. It's not zero emissions as it still gets electricity from a powerplant. But that powerplant is heavily filtered and the emissions are cleaner than the average car. If carbon dioxide emissions are important factors in choosing how we move around this town, then rail transit is an important part of that total plan. We won't eliminate cars. And buses will still play a key role in the total system.

                              Rail and bus transportation isn't for everyone. But a lot of people will come to depend on it. I'm willing to place bets that it'll be well-used and money well-spent. There's no way additional lanes or multiple decks of highways will solve our traffic problems. There's only so many cars that you can cram into central Honolulu. And as anyone can attest, the cost of parking in downtown always goes up. At $4 a day where I worked, I toyed with the idea of riding a motorscooter to work to get free parking. But then I started working at home and that changed everything. Shorter commute. Free parking. Flexible lunch break :-)

                              Not everyone can or will give up their cars. But there's a lot who can and will. And there's a lot of people who can't drive and can't afford taxis but still need to get into and out of town.

                              Sure, the system can't service everyone. But it will service a huge chunk of the population on Oahu. Just stand on any of the overpasses overlooking H1 near Aiea every morning and afternoon and you'll see how many people could use an alternative means of transportation. And as bad as it is now, it will get worse. In all the years I've lived on this side of the island, it always has. And it's always worse than any other district on Oahu because that's where most of the available land is for development.

                              Rail isn't THE answer, but it's a better option than trying to squeeze another highway into a city that can't even afford the few feet needed to stripe a bike lane on existing roads.
                              Last edited by Composite 2992; November 3, 2006, 11:44 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: Rail Transit

                                Originally posted by timkona View Post
                                Of course the train is a good idea. So is a ferry system on the South Shore, and the West Side of Big Island. So is a road over/under Pearl to Ewa. If you think a shortage of gasoline will eliminate the POV, you are incorrect. ALL roads will need to be widened or DECKED in the coming 50 years to accomodate the inevitable increase in usage. There needs to be a MAJOR increase in large-scale, ocean-access infrastucture in the State of Hawaii.

                                Do not be so shortsighted as the think that this or that solution is the whole story. They must ALL be utilized.
                                Thanks, Tim. This is what Mel and his gang of NIMBYs just can’t seem to understand. They are so stuck on this either/or mentality, they fail to realize that there is no one solution that will improve our traffic situation, based on population growth alone. Even the so-called honolulutraffic.com peeps conceded this point in a televised debate on the subject. We need rail and everything else being proposed.

                                We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

                                — U.S. President Bill Clinton
                                USA TODAY, page 2A
                                11 March 1993

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