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  • #46
    Re: Rail Transit

    Originally posted by Bard View Post
    Take a look at Europe -- covered in rail. Most people I know love going to Europe because they don't have to rent a car. More cars and more roads *are* evil in a lot of ways.

    On the other hand... .5% GET increase. Yowza. That's one heck of an expensive project they're proposing.
    I'd say take the project to an even bigger level. Don't just make it a public transit infrastructure project but make it an urban development project. They should plan to build low income condos right on top of certain stations. The income from selling or renting out the units would help defray the cost of the transit. And by placing homes right at the stations, you're encouraging people to avoid/give up car ownership. And they should allow advertising to be done only at the stations. Given that Oahu pretty much has a ban on outdoor advertising (no billboards etc), there's bound to be a market for advertising. That's another source of revenue you can get. Even sell naming rights to stations to corporate sponsers. This is one of those projects that won't succeed unless you've hit critical mass.

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    • #47
      Re: Rail Transit

      Never listen to seniors when it comes to long term infrastructure investment. The train might prove to have been a great idea for twenty years or more. Don't want to be like Los Angeles? Build the train.
      “First we fought the preliminary round for the k***s and now we’re gonna fight the main event for the n*****s."
      http://hollywoodbitchslap.com/review...=416&printer=1

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      • #48
        Re: Rail Transit

        Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
        I'd say take the project to an even bigger level. Don't just make it a public transit infrastructure project but make it an urban development project. They should plan to build low income condos right on top of certain stations.
        I dunno about "low income" but the urban development thing will happen without any pushes. It did here. Outside of the city center there's practically a huge splotch* of condos and apartments at every single MAX station. They also tend to grow little shopping centers and have farmers' markets periodically and so on... really cool. Out in the 'burbs the housing tends to be fairly cheap compared to city-center stuff.


        * My made up word for the day.

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        • #49
          Re: Rail Transit

          Originally posted by Bard View Post
          I dunno about "low income" but the urban development thing will happen without any pushes. It did here. Outside of the city center there's practically a huge splotch* of condos and apartments at every single MAX station. They also tend to grow little shopping centers and have farmers' markets periodically and so on... really cool. Out in the 'burbs the housing tends to be fairly cheap compared to city-center stuff.


          * My made up word for the day.
          The reason I would suggest the gov't to plan the "low income" condos is to help defray the cost of the rail itself. Not to mention address the lack of affordable housing too. There's no doubt private developers will come in and build their real estate projects around the stations but all the money made there goes back to private developers. If the gov't steps in and does the real estate development, the money made there can be applied to the cost of the rail. If the gov't owns the little shopping centers, the rent money paid by tenants goes back to the rail bill. People are flipping out over the price tag right now so I'm just tossing out creative ideas in paying for it.

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          • #50
            Re: Rail Transit

            Yeah, I hear ya... they got a bunch of federal funding for the rail here, they have a flat fare system that is pretty expensive for short distances (it's got 3 zones, and going within two zones for 2 hours costs you $1.70 no matter how far you go, and 3 zones are $1.95 I think). The rail and bus are all integrated so they share profits and problems, which has sucked for us rail-only commuters lately -- every time the gas prices go up the rail tickets rise to fund the buses. There's also a (relatively small) business income tax that goes to the public transit. They might have some kicked in from state taxes as well, I can't remember.

            It definitely isn't cheap, but I can tell you that it's changing the city here in some very good ways.

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            • #51
              Re: Rail Transit

              How long is the MAX system from end to end? I think a true measure of expensive or not for fares should be computed by price of a gallon of gas locally multiplied by mpg of personal car + estimated cost of wear and tear of car + any additional parking fees. Given that gas is around $2.78 a gallon on Oahu recently and my car gets about 30 mpg, $1.95 to travel the full 28 miles of the proposed rail ain't expensive at all.

              Even though tying the bus and the rail systems together may affect rail ticket prices, I hope they do this for Oahu because an integrated system can really make public transportation convenient. If the rail is built, I envision all the East-West bus routes being eliminated along the 28 mile corridor. All those buses can be freed up to run makai to mauka loops to feed the rail. For instance, you can have a rail station right by Pearlridge and have buses run weaving courses up into Aiea and Pearl City. The same for each respective rail station.

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              • #52
                Re: Rail Transit

                Good point. If you ride the longest MAX line (blue) from end to end, it's approximately 32 miles (that's just Google Earth as the crow flies distance, I'm not sure what the actual number is). Downtown is in the middle of that. There is also a branch going to the airport, and another that heads north along I-5. They are adding a new line that will go south along I-205. So the total is probably going to be quite substantial, and you can ride as far as your ticket and your 2 hours allows. The bus and train tickets are interchangable, and they can also be used on the downtown street car (which is not owned by the same group, but they cooperate). You can transfer freely between all of those on one ticket, again as long as you are within your time and zone limit.

                Bikes can be taken on both buses and trains here as well, for "hybrid transit".

                My wife and I once got all-zone tickets and just rode the blue line all the way out to Hillsboro (the western terminus). It's kind of a fun trip, 'cause once you get out to the suburbs, about half the time the train is just flying 65MPH through wooded areas with not much in the way of development (and not much in the way of roads paralleling it).

                Edit: Forgot to answer your second half of your post. They are doing something similar with the downtown "bus mall" when they bring in the new green line. The current lines all run through downtown east-west, while the new one is going to cut in from the north and head south, from the Amtrak station down to PSU. I think they are probably going to be doing some bus rearranging after that.
                Last edited by Bard; November 1, 2006, 05:57 PM. Reason: Added

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                • #53
                  Re: Rail Transit

                  People need to re-think transit.

                  The main point is to move people. Not cars.

                  Getting more cars efficiently into downtown still means these cars need to end up somewhere.

                  A rail transit system would cost a fortune but considering what happens when the freeway gets shut down, then having a backup "people mover" would be well worth the investment.

                  And if energy efficiency rail is a lot more efficient than a horde of questionably maintained POV's.

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                  • #54
                    Re: Rail Transit

                    Yes, the main point is to move people, not cars. But cars do a much better job of moving people where they want to go than rail ever will.

                    Rail supporters seem to think that everybody will be working within walking distance of the rail. That is simply not the case. Not everybody works downtown. Not everybody works in a line between downtown and Ala Moana.

                    With regard to reliability, a train breaking down and blocking the track will cause more havoc than one of the, as you put it, "horde of questionably maintained POVs" breaking down and blocking a lane of traffic.

                    With regard to energy efficiency, its true that during peaks hour when trains are crowded, there is much efficiency. But during off peak hours when trains are mostly empty, trains are horribly inefficient compared with private autos.

                    TheBus is a better mass transit option than the rail because it can pick you up at more places and drop you off in more places than rail, and if you use express routes it can be fast.

                    Others have mentioned how good the rail system in Europe is. Guess what? Less than 10% of miles traveled by European citizens is by rail. Cars are still the overwhelming transportation method of choice even in Europe, where there are such excellent rail and mass transit options.

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                    • #55
                      Re: Rail Transit

                      You raise some good points, mapen. I can only answer them for Portland but maybe it translates somewhat:

                      I've seen all of these things happen here. If a train gets stuck somewhere, the entire line has to stop until they get it fixed. Or if there's a wreck across some of the tracks, or whatever. I've found that to be a pretty rare circumstance compared to the two or three a day wrecks on the freeways, but it does happen.

                      We also have a lot of problems here (by "a lot" I mean 3-4 a year ) with things like ice forming on the electrical wires and preventing the trains from running. There have been a few days since I've lived here where they had to run trains all night to prevent them from freezing up. Somehow I doubt you guys would have that particular problem though

                      There are two things about buses vs trains that make trains attractive, and these are usually the things that people focus on as unattractive as well:

                      1) The trains don't run on the same tracks/street as buses and cars. If it's rush hour and everyone and their dog is driving home, the bus is immediately sunk to that lowest common denominator. There's no where for it to go. If you make separate bus lanes then you might as well have just put in a train, as it has many of the same issues. I've seen it quite often here where I'm on the train and zooming past a totally gridlocked highway.

                      2) Trains have a fixed route. This encourages dense and walkable development along the rail line(s) because once people have paid for the thing they want to make the most of it. A bus theoretically has the same sorts of advantages, but there's this psychology of previous investment that makes it stick better with a train. It's seen as more permanent and so people are more willing to invest along the stops. So it's not just a transportation option, it's an urban shaping/development tool. Maybe with where you live now it wouldn't be workable, but it becomes really attractive both hassle and money wise to live in a place right at a train stop, walk to get groceries, and take the train to your job and the beach or whatever. That's how it worked for us -- we actually bought a house because of its proximity to a MAX stop, and stuff is slowly building up in the neighborhood.

                      It's also worth pointing out that if trains came in, the buses wouldn't go away. As you say they go more places and stop more often. The train is more like an express line that can ignore any other traffic issues.

                      Sorry for going on and on about this I just love the trains here, and my wife's working in transportation, so I hear about it all the time. Actually that's the reason I'm here (she went to Waikiki for a conference).

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                      • #56
                        Re: Rail Transit

                        Hi Bard, so do you think the zoning methods work well with Max? I suppose it's an honor system too where there are no gates to check your tickets but maybe the occassional officier patrolling?

                        I've used the rail system in Hong Kong before and although you would have to implement gates and smart card readers, I think that might be a better choice because it eliminates zones. You use your smart card to check in at a gate of departure. Fares are then only calculated and deducted from your smart card when you check out of the leaving gate. So it will compute the fares based on number of stations travelled. If on the bus, then only a flat fare rate is deducted when you board and scan your smart card. I think this is more fare because what happens if you literally live in the station at the end of zone A and want to get to the next station which is the start of zone B? And I don't believe in the honor system. A nice gesture but let's face reality, people in today's society will try to get a free ride whenver they can. I've seen that happen too many times on the VTA in San Jose and the MetroRail in LA.

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                        • #57
                          Re: Rail Transit

                          Hi Mapen, you do have good points but I think people are looking too hard at the rail as just a stand alone infrastruture. In that sense, yes, it will only serve a niche group that works along that straight line between Kapolei and Ala Moana. But if the planning is done right, buses are supposed to work in conjunction with the rail. The buses would run the feeder lines, going through your neighborhood so it actually is closer to your home. Of course, it will never take you right to your doorstep for most folks but have we as a society become so lazy that we won't even take a brisk walk? Heck, that brisk commute walk would be the exercise we all need to reduce all the health problems we hear about today.

                          Yes, trains may break down but their reliablity factor is so high these days, it's very rare. In fact, the only train breakdowns I had ever seen when I used the VTA in San Jose were due to collisions with cars. But this issue will not exist with the proposed rail for Oahu because it's not light rail, it's really rapid rail with its own dedicated grade separated line. That's also why the price tag is so hefty. I think Bard mentioned cold weather as another reason but again, we're lucky in not having to worry about that too.

                          You are right that a train can be less energy efficient if it's an empty train compared to a car. But look at how energy inefficient we are with cars right now. How many cars do you see on that daily commute where it's just one occupant? And more often than not, it's a gas guzzling SUV too. At least the train runs on electricity which has the potential to be environmentally friendly if the power plant happens to be green (solar, wind, water).

                          TheBus is good but it's weakest link is that it is still subjected to road factors. And because it is not a permanent fixture, here lies a weakness too. A bus route can easily disappear. The BRT lines by Harris came and went. That was money wasted. With something permanent, people will be more dedicated to making it work because failing won't mean it will go away.

                          As for Europe, how many miles was the total? Even 10% of that is a good figure because that means 10% less competing on the road. Rail and public transportation isn't meant to replace cars. It's to help alleviate and offer an alternate means of getting from A to B.

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                          • #58
                            Re: Rail Transit

                            The thing is, we need a dedicated line for transit. Since TheBus runs on the same road as the cars, it too can be stuck in traffic like the rest of them. However, if we have a dedicated line, then if a "car" gets stuck or breaks down, then it'll snaggle the rest of the line.

                            What we need, is atleast two alternatives to the road: one being either an elevated road or rail (or a combo) and a waterline system aka ferry. People can just take a bus or taxi down to the pier and hop onto a ferry, then 5 minutes later, be in Kapolei or Waipahu.
                            How'd I get so white and nerdy?

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                            • #59
                              Re: Rail Transit

                              Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                              Hi Bard, so do you think the zoning methods work well with Max? I suppose it's an honor system too where there are no gates to check your tickets but maybe the occassional officier patrolling?
                              It depends on the line. I used to live along the blue line, at 60th (NE). Between there and fareless square (where it's free anyway) was a total of one stop. I believe I got my ticket checked *once* and I found out later they were being very thorough because they had heard some sort of threat.

                              I live on the yellow now and I get my fare checked almost literally every trip. And almost every trip they do pull someone off who's trying to get away with a free ride. I hear farther out in the suburbs they are more careful too.

                              The zone thing is kind of a bummer in some ways because there's a situation where I could live one mile from fareless square and have to pay $1.70 for that ride. Someone else could live 6-7 miles out and pay the same fare. And the people who live 20 miles out are paying $1.95 or so (can't remember exactly what the all-zone is right now).

                              But I was in Tokyo for a week and dealt with all their gates and micro-managed per-stop rates, and I'd rather have the zones any day. So much simpler. Figure out approximately how far you want to go for the fare you need, then just walk up to the train and get on. Makes the infrastructure a heck of a lot cheaper too because they don't have to enclose the stops so much.

                              I did hear (from some study) that Tri-Met could probably recoup their costs by eliminating fares entirely, which sounds wacky.. but they spend a lot of money on all the ticket machines and enforcement. I suspect they don't do it because they don't want it to become one big homeless shelter.

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                              • #60
                                Re: Rail Transit

                                I thought the train was a bad idea when it was Fasi's idea and I still think it's a bad idea today. For the train to be a success it needs to go from where people live to where they work/go to school. In my old neighborhood in Chicago, there was a train station only a 10 minute walk from our family home. The proposed route is over 5 miles from our home in Ewa. No where near our home.

                                Another obsticle to more people using the trian is the issue of getting the keiki to school. Every day I drop our nephew off at Campbell, our baby at the sitter, and then drive past no less than three schools. Each has a line of cars going in and out to drop off keiki. And in the afternoon the process is reversed. Unless they are all somehow going to be suddenly put on buses, I see no train users among these parents.

                                Finally the cost...it seems to grow every couple months 1 billion, then 3.6 billion, then 4 billion+, next stop? Perhaps the local politicos see it like the H3 (a 30 year job with lots of high paying UNION jobs). I firmly believe it would be the equivalent of Honolulu's own "Money Pit".

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