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Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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  • #91
    Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

    Originally posted by Keanu View Post
    What an arbitrary and juvenile comment; we don't live in a black and white only world.
    Oh, wait...I think you missed Mel's point. We do live in shades of gray. Problem is - this thread is dominated by people who's opinions are staunchly opposite. Hence the comment, and the reason that this thread is a verbal arm-wrestle!
    ~ This is the strangest life I've ever known ~

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    • #92
      Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

      Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
      That's a pretty flaky way to determine "local"-ness. Examples from my own circle of friends include people with the last names of Fern, Hayes, Miles and McMillan. Those don't sound particularly local, do they? But all of them are Kamehameha grads, with Hawaiian bloodlines.
      Shame on me; I forgot HT's very own "Fergerstrom." Cannot get more local than him!

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      • #93
        Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

        Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
        That's a pretty flaky way to determine "local"-ness. Examples from my own circle of friends include people with the last names of Fern, Hayes, Miles and McMillan. Those don't sound particularly local, do they? But all of them are Kamehameha grads, with Hawaiian bloodlines.
        Right off the top of my head, I can think of Holt, Ellis, Agard, Martin, Daines.

        But what the heck? I thought the majority of KS grads have non-Hawaiian surnames, nowadays.
        This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

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        • #94
          Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

          Originally posted by turtlegirl View Post
          this thread is dominated by people who's opinions are staunchly opposite.
          Indeed. Mel has often pointed out (accurately) that his conservative viewpoints are in the minority on HT. Heck, TG, he might even consider you to be a socialist, because you are in a union.

          So, since the Mainland connections suggested by Perry & Price (good local names, those) appear to be without substantiation, back to HSF. I'm confused, based on the links and discussions here. First I read that HSF has decided to cease operations, then there has been suggestion that they would possibly resume after completion of a full EIS. Can anyone clarify further?

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          • #95
            Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

            Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
            These threads might be worth staying with if people could stay away from the bashing of each other; there's a hell of a lot of it on HT, which diminishes (imo) the value of the information and opinion being presented by all sides. I thank those here who have not sunk to that level.
            You might feel like a referee at a professional wrestling match. Who was the local Japanese referee at 50th State Wrestling matches who used to gently tap the bad guy on the shoulder to stop doing that, when the guilty wrestler was obviously doing a cheating move in front of the crowd? The bad guy wasn't cheating because he shrug his shoulders and shook his head "no."
            Last edited by Walkoff Balk; March 20, 2009, 09:44 PM. Reason: spelling

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            • #96
              The latest lame justification

              HSF supporters have been running around recently saying that since we don't make Young Brothers, Matson, or all the other and sundry ships that ply our waters do EIS's that HSF shouldn't have to do one either. This argument rubs me wrong in all sorts of ways. I think we should make everyone else do the EIS too, but a lot of them predate HEPA, and the HSF by dint of the dock modifications and other aspects of the service they provide make them particularly subject to HEPA.

              Once again HSF die-hards are pushing the argument that just because someone else got away with not having to do an EIS that means NO ONE should have to do an EIS. They may not see it that way, but this is the same at-all-costs approach that got HSF's exemption ruled unconstitutional.

              Do the EIS. Do it according to the law. Until then HSF should not operate in Hawaiian waters.

              FB Group that likes to put words like unconstitutional in quotation marks (thus demonstrating their appalling disregard for our laws): http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...3959844&ref=nf

              Keep it up so-called supporters, make it worse for HSF and Hawaii. The enviros and native haw'n groups are keeping an eye on this, and advocating for punching exemptions through HEPA makes for a great way to make them angry again. Nice strategy.

              Comment


              • #97
                Re: The latest lame justification

                Originally posted by Jewlipino View Post
                HSF supporters have been running around recently saying that since we don't make Young Brothers, Matson, or all the other and sundry ships that ply our waters do EIS's that HSF shouldn't have to do one either. This argument rubs me wrong in all sorts of ways. I think we should make everyone else do the EIS too, but a lot of them predate HEPA, and the HSF by dint of the dock modifications and other aspects of the service they provide make them particularly subject to HEPA.
                YB plans to add eight new barges, six tugboats, containers, cargo handling equipment, and information systems over the next 10 years to the tune of $186 million. How does this predate HEPA? GM, Ford, and Chrysler all predate the EPA so by your logic, why do they need to adhere to EPA guidelines?

                The HSF actually did not make dock modifications, that's the main reason behind using barges to load/unload vehicles. I find it equally a rub in the wrong way when arguments against the HSF are made with gross generalizations as well. Perhaps there would be less confrontation over the issue if the anti-ferry stance tone down the military conspiracies and distorting of facts such as dock modifications?

                §343-5 Applicability and requirements. (a) Except as otherwise provided, an environmental assessment shall be required for actions that:

                (3) Propose any use within a shoreline area as defined in section 205A-41;

                §205A-41 Definitions. As used in this part, unless the context otherwise requires:

                "Board approval" means approval by the board of land and natural resources pursuant to chapter 183C.

                "Shoreline area" shall include all of the land area between the shoreline and the shoreline setback line and may include the area between mean sea level and the shoreline; provided that if the highest annual wash of the waves is fixed or significantly affected by a structure that has not received all permits and approvals required by law or if any part of any structure in violation of this part extends seaward of the shoreline, then the term "shoreline area" shall include the entire structure.

                "Shoreline setback line" means that line established in this part or by the county running inland from the shoreline at a horizontal plane.

                "Structure" includes, but is not limited to, any portion of any building, pavement, road, pipe, flume, utility line, fence, groin, wall, or revetment. [L 1986, c 258, pt of §1; am L 1989, c 356, §§2, 10; am L 1993, c 258, §5; am L 1995, c 11, §12 and c 69, §12]


                Any new Matson or YB vessel is a proposal of use within a shoreline area.

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                • #98
                  Hawaii Superferry -New York Times 3/22/09

                  Read this article for today's New York Times about the Superferry. It ties together many of the military connections.

                  http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/22/us...=Hawaii&st=cse

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Re: Hawaii Superferry -New York Times 3/22/09

                    Originally posted by Palolo lolo View Post
                    Read this article for today's New York Times about the Superferry. It ties together many of the military connections.

                    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/22/us...=Hawaii&st=cse
                    It's bad enough when a NY Times article seems to be more inquisitive on the HSF/military contract tie-in than any story written by our local media. But for the Advertiser and SB to also get trumped by bloggers?

                    http://savekahuluiharbor.blogspot.co...s-leaving.html

                    Here is my take: They already knew that they were going to leave. Our informal calculations showed that they were possibly only grossing about $15,000 per one-way transit. This barely covered the fuel, much less the $191,000 in monthly harbor fees, or the debt service on loans totaling almost $200 million, or the expensive marine insurance, liability insurance, or the employees salaries and benefits, or the advertising, or the numerous new trucks and vans and equipment and the auto insurance for those vehicles, etc. It is the economy that is killing them more than anything. Also, they had a flawed business plan from day one; Alan Lerchbacher, the recently retired CEO of Austal (the shipbuilder), told the story of how he begged them to build a much smaller boat, telling them that because of Hawaii's rough seas, the Superferry would have to travel at full speed in order to rise up above the swells - and that this would burn unbelievable amounts of fuel. But, according to Lerchbacher, they "wouldn't hear of it". We don't know for sure if Lehman himself was involved behind-the-scenes in the initial order of the ship. But in any case, a smaller boat wouldn't have worked for him because he needed the boat to measure between 300 ft and 350 ft long in order to have the boat qualify as a demonstration model for the 55-ship military Joint High Speed Vessel project. The Dept. of Defense awarded a 10-ship contract to Austal just last month (after "deciding" on the "Superferry Hull Design")
                    So, I believe that Lehman and his Board had already realized that the ferry project was not viable economically and were just waiting for the Supreme Court ruling to come out so they could save face, blame the environmentalists, and have an excuse to stop the bleeding by laying off all the employees.


                    These are some hard numbers, not wild conspiracy theories. There's a lot of unanswered questions about how the HSF was: 1) supposed to economically sustain itself over the long haul, and 2) why the Alaka'i was oversized for the Hawaii market.
                    This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

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                    • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

                      How is that more preposterous than comparing the adhering to the EIS requirement to legitimizing executive order 9066?
                      I wasn't. All I said was "Wow, it sucks for the people who don't have jobs anymore" and then all kinds of stuff starting appearing on my screen. So to sum up- "Wow, it sucks for the people who don't have jobs anymore." I don't know anything about any kind of executive orders or EIS's or conspiracies.

                      I'm obviously in the wrong thread.

                      So, hope they find jobs soon. Hope you get to Maui soon, TG. Sorry for pissing anyone off.

                      Can't think of anything creative this time

                      Comment


                      • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

                        A very interesting article at this link in today's Advertiser, written by one of the founders of the SuperFerry.
                        .
                        .

                        That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

                          Originally posted by surlygirly View Post
                          All I said was "Wow, it sucks for the people who don't have jobs anymore" and then all kinds of stuff starting appearing on my screen.
                          Well, no ... that's not all you said. You chided other posters with part of your first post (emphasis mine):
                          Originally posted by surlygirly View Post
                          I'm sure the 236 people who just got laid off really care about the politics of it all. They just want jobs again. It's great to preach about ethics and all when you're sitting comfy, but when it affects your well-being on a personal level...
                          That doesn't exactly leave you with the cleanest possible hands. But you are right in that it sucks for those people.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

                            Originally posted by Palolo lolo View Post
                            Read this article for today's New York Times about the Superferry. It ties together many of the military connections.
                            I'll ask again - why does it matter? Who cares if it has military applications?

                            Comment


                            • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

                              Originally posted by Walkoff Balk View Post
                              Neighbor island residents appreciate the higher prices for imported goods. You can see the difference in prices from the advertisement by comparing the Oahu paper against a neighbor island paper with stores such as Longs, Foodland, and Star Market.
                              It's the sacrifice you make to live in the place that you love.

                              Not like the HSF would reduce shipping costs (and retail prices) for goods sold at the stores you mentioned. It's a ferry, not a barge.
                              Twitter: LookMaICanWrite


                              flickr

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                              • Re: The latest lame justification

                                Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                                The HSF actually did not make dock modifications, that's the main reason behind using barges to load/unload vehicles. I find it equally a rub in the wrong way when arguments against the HSF are made with gross generalizations as well. Perhaps there would be less confrontation over the issue if the anti-ferry stance tone down the military conspiracies and distorting of facts such as dock modifications?
                                The issue is more one of public vs. private money. You're right in that Superferry didn't make dock modifications. The State did, and by doing so the whole project became subject to EIS. Just in case the argument is floated that, "only the State should have to do an EIS if that's the case", HEPA prohibits compartmentalizing projects in order to avoid EIS's. So by convincing the Gov and DOT to make the dock modifications with State money, HSF dug its own grave. Read the Hawaii Supreme Court cases, it's all there, so how am I distorting facts? And what's with the implication that I am anti-ferry? I've stated several times, and will again, I support inter-island ferry service in Hawaii! Good enough? Or do I have to say it again?

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