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  • #31
    Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

    That new cruise by Princess to Hawai'i on the Diamond Princess won't cause too much additional traffic because each island stopover appears to be only a day trip, as opposed to NCL, where the ships have 2-day ports of call. And it looks like it's geared to richer folk than NCL's average passenger.

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

      -------
      joshuatree says: " And it's never occurred to folks that by preventing any other types of industry to develop, neighbor islanders are literally transforming themselves into future Oahu's because they are solely relying on tourism, much like Oahu? "

      So when it's convenient to espouse such, all of a sudden tourism dollar$ are ethically tainted you're inferring?
      ++++
      joshuatree says: "Again, it's never occurred that maybe niche agriculture can be enhanced by a ferry and the market will be Oahu? That's why I asked earlier what opposition will there be if HSF simply became nothing but a super fast barge, hauling cargo?"

      That's absurd. The Superferry reportedly sucking in 17,000 gallons of seawater per second is to be promoted for its value to serve a niche vegetable farmer on Kauai? It doesn't make more sense to ship farm products interisland via the marine equivalent of Fed -Ex than it makes to ship and unload produce interisland in one or two days within our existing produce distribution sytem?

      From a person who requests numbers/specifics from others who are opposed to Superferry as if he/she him/herself has such specifics as: (1) What is the primary legal agricultural product of Kauai? (2) How is that agricultural product shipped off of Kauai? (3) What's the expected future of agriculture on Kauai when of all 4000 or so students of the public high schools on Kauai the educational system can field no more than 170 students, 150 who show up regularly, for high school agricultural science courses? (4) If the prospect of agriculture is so bright for the next generation of farming on Kauai why is it that a fair half of the ag sci classes are composed of students who failed one of their their core science courses and just want to enjoy, for the minimal effort , the guarantee of not being left behind, even though they should have been for both their and society's sake?
      Last edited by craig foo; September 27, 2007, 10:11 PM. Reason: font

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      • #33
        Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

        Originally posted by craig foo View Post
        So when it is convenient to espouse such, all of a sudden tourism dollar$ are ethically tainted you are inferring?
        Only when people keep harping that they don't want any more development and they can't handle any more development yet they still welcome more and more tourism dollars. They say they don't want to be another Oahu but Oahu became the way it is because it kept on taking in the tourism dollars. Take a look at Waikiki, it's a far cry from what it was even a decade ago.

        Originally posted by craig foo View Post
        That's absurd. The Superferry reportedly sucking in 17,000 gallons of seawater per second is to be promoted for its value to serve a niche vegetable farmer on Kauai? It doesn't make more sense to ship farm products interisland via the marine equivalent of Fed -Ex than it makes to ship and unload produce interisland in one or two days within our existing produce distribution sytem.

        From a person who requests numbers/specifics from others who are opposed to Superferry as if he/she him/herself has such specifics as: (1) What is the primary legal agricultural product of Kauai? (2) How is that agricultural product shipped off of Kauai? (3) What is the future of agriculture on Kauai when all of the public high schools on Kauai can field no more than 170 students, 150 who show up regularily, for high school agricultural science courses? (4) If the prospect of agricultire is so bright for the next generation of farming on Kauai why is it that a fair half of the ag sci classes are composed of students who failed one of their their core science courses and just want to enjoy, for the minimal effort , the guarantee of not being left behind, even though they should have been?
        What does the water intake rate of the ferry's propulsion have to do with its promotion to carry the goods of farmers? And why is it absurd? FedEx was mocked as absurd. Who needs overnight delivery? Yet, the world can't get by today without FedEx. It's become part of our vocabulary. Does it only have to pertain to vegetables? What about dairy products with shorter shelf life? Maybe the money spent on refrigeration while on the barge is made up for with speed on the ferry?

        Also, my statement wasn't directed just at Kauai. You want numbers from me? I'm still waiting for your numbers on the big Oahu scare you painted.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

          Originally posted by 1stwahine View Post
          Wat? DRUGS are a PROBLEM!!! PERIOD. No and's, if's, or BUTTS about IT!

          Auntie Lynn
          With all due respect:
          Drugs are NOT the problem. PEOPLE are the problem. Drugs don't do themselves. There is no "disease"; it is nothing more than willful misconduct.
          But this is the Superferry thread

          Drugs is another thread.
          You can apply any terms to any situation to suit your perspective.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

            more of joshuatree says: "Oahu became the way it is because it kept on taking in the tourism dollars. "

            Am I to be lead to believe by you that developers' dollars didn't preceed tourists' dollars? As poorly empowered as Kauai Planning Department, Kauai County Council, Kauai Planning Commission are they do listen their constituency...you know why? They either live next door or right down the road from one of us. Obviously you cannot appreciate a community that a speaker from the audience at the meeting last Thursday mentioned as being such that virtually resident on Kauai is three or less persons removed from one another.
            ++++
            more of joshuatree asks: " Who needs overnight delivery?"

            Or, from Kauai, who needs four hour transit to Oahu for their goods and produce. What particular agricultural niche(s) were you suggesting made up the agricultural production enterprises on Kauai that would be better served by Superferry than by existing transit technology?
            +++++
            more joshing: " Maybe the money spent on refrigeration while on the barge is made up for with speed on the ferry?"

            Maybe if we sent ice cream across the Atlantic on a stealth bomber it would not need to be kept in a freezer for the trip from New York to London?
            ++++
            and yet more: " I'm still waiting for your numbers on the big Oahu scare you painted."

            Aren't we all. Environmental Asessment would be the logical first step, and, not just coincidentally that is what the protesters want also. So what's the problem? Superferry cannot afford being respectful to Kauai's inhabitants? If so, then for sure Superferry could not afford much more than the most basic operating expenses. All the money that Superferry does not need to dish out to cover EA/EIS -related expenses stays in whose pockets?

            It's not so much the matter of the existence a waterborne ferry service for human transport connecting Kauai and Oahu, it's a matter of the nature of the Superferry itself, regardless the multitude of spins put on the issue by Supperferry supporters.
            Last edited by craig foo; September 27, 2007, 11:22 PM. Reason: font, add quote, spelling

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

              Originally posted by Mike_Lowery View Post
              You ever drove on the semi-paved, pothole-ridden road at the Nawiliwili jetty?
              No. Any your point?

              Have you ever driven on sand? You flatten your tires to gain traction.

              Again, flattening tires does not immobilize a vehicle. At best it makes it hard to control at road speeds. There's still plenty of traction (if not more traction) to run over some protesters. What's more the guy doing the flattening was putting him self in danger as the vehicle could start moving at any time.

              So he puts himself in danger, doesn't lessen the danger to others and endangers the occupants when they do get to the roadways.

              No, he's not an idiot. He's a frickin' idiot.


              Originally posted by Miulang View Post
              P.S. As far as people protesting against the cruise lines the way Kauaians are, remember the people of Moloka'i.
              Oh, yes. Now there's an island that's economically self-sufficient island</sarcasm>. And since they are part of Maui county, they have an even smaller voting influence in their government. I think their day will come.



              Now, question for everyone. Who tends to travel more inter-island? Oahu folks or neighbor island folks?

              Excluding those who travel on business, and Oahu folks going to see family, I don't think Oahu people travel to the outer islands that much. I think the last time I went that wasn't business, was like over 10 years ago. When I vacation, I go mainland. And I think most my friends are the same. IF they go outer island, it's rarely.

              On the other hand, it seemed like a lot of the neighbor island folks I met did make personal trips to Oahu. Usually to go shopping. That was back before a lot of the big box stores opened up, so that may have changed.

              What are your impressions? And do you think that pattern will carry over to the HSF?

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

                Originally posted by craig foo View Post
                Am I to be lead to believe by you that developers' dollars didn't preceed tourists' dollars? As poorly empowered as Kauai Planning Department, Kauai County Council, Kauai Planning Commission are they do listen their constituency...you know why? They either live next door or right down the road from one of us. Obviously you cannot appreciate a community that a speaker from the audience at the meeting last Thursday mentioned as being such that virtually resident on Kauai is three or less persons removed from one another.
                Why would developers throw money in if they don't see a return on investment? Otherwise, there's plenty of desolate land out in the US Southwest to build. What is the main economic engine in this state that spurs developers to build giant LV, Ferregamo, Coach, etc stores? Tourism dollars.

                You speak of Kauai's authority as if they are doing all the right things. If so, why is their speak of infrastructure problems? Why did the local Kauai court deny a TRO against the HSF?


                Originally posted by craig foo View Post
                more of joshuatree asks: " Who needs overnight delivery?"

                Or, from Kauai, who needs four hour transit to Oahu for their goods and produce. What particular agricultural niche(s) were you suggesting made up the agricultural production enterprises on Kauai that would be better served by Superferry than by existing transit technology?
                Again, you need to pull out of your tunnel vision. My original statement was addressed to inter-island shipping, Kauai included, but not just Kauai alone. I heard chickens run rampant on Kauai, perhaps that can be an export. Fresh island chicken.

                Originally posted by craig foo View Post
                more joshing: " Maybe the money spent on refrigeration while on the barge is made up for with speed on the ferry?"

                Maybe if we sent ice cream across the Atlantic on a stealth bomber it would not need to be kept in a freezer for the trip from New York to London?
                ++++
                and yet more: " I'm still waiting for your numbers on the big Oahu scare you painted."

                Aren't we all. Environmental Asessment would be the logical first step, and, not just coincidentally that is what the protesters want also. So what's the problem? Superferry cannot afford being respectful to Kauai's inhabitants? If so, then for sure Superferry could not afford much more than the most basic operating expenses. All the money that Superferry does not need to dish out to cover EA/EIS -related expenses stays in whose pockets?

                It's not so much the matter of the existence a waterborne ferry service for human transport connecting Kauai and Oahu, it's a matter of the nature of the Superferry itself, regardless the multitude of spins put on the issue by Supperferry supporters.
                So now you need to resort to name calling eh? You should quit fooing around and address your post #807, where are the facts to back up your fear mongering statements? Quit avoiding questions that are directed to you. Otherwise, you lack any creditability but then again, I've seen many others on this forum already discounting you.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

                  Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post

                  Now, question for everyone. Who tends to travel more inter-island? Oahu folks or neighbor island folks?

                  On the other hand, it seemed like a lot of the neighbor island folks I met did make personal trips to Oahu. Usually to go shopping. That was back before a lot of the big box stores opened up, so that may have changed.

                  What are your impressions? And do you think that pattern will carry over to the HSF?
                  For me, I travel to the Big Island, Maui and Kauai for work, a few of us from the company more than others. The friends, colleagues, acquaintances, etc. I've met and personally know will travel to Oahu on their vacations for purposes of back to school shopping, more things to do, etc. than the reverse. Everyone I know, including myself will travel to the other islands for the purpose of visiting family which may or may not include staying with family, renting a vehicle, camping (with permits obtained prior to arriving), graduation/birthday/retirement/etc. parties...the list of traveling goes on.

                  We travel annually to Maui for the New Year's holiday, otherwise our only purpose for "vacationing" on the other islands, is to introduce our children to the experiences.
                  ___
                  "Be god to each other."

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

                    Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
                    Oh, yes. Now there's an island that's economically self-sufficient island</sarcasm>. And since they are part of Maui county, they have an even smaller voting influence in their government.
                    I don't understand how you can say that the people of Moloka'i have so little influence on the County Council. If the Council had really wanted to push it, I'm sure they could have forced Moloka'i to accept NCL cruises, too. But they didn't. The people from the island of Maui and Lanai respect the wishes of the people of Moloka'i. The residents of Moloka'i may seem poor and backward to outsiders, but let me tell you, they are fiercely proud of who they are, and money is not the same all mighty god to them as it is to most other residents of the State. They try to treat their neighbors with respect (provided the same is offered to them) and will share whatever they have. They try to live off the land and the ocean whenever they can. I call that being self-sufficient in the purest sense of the term.

                    One recent example of this is the resignation of one of the employees of Moloka'i Ranch, who had been working there for years. Why did he resign? He was asked by his employers to go be around his neighbors and convince them that the development at La'au Pt. was necessary for the island to bring more jobs. He quit because his conscience would not allow him to betray his people. He said that it was sad that he had to leave his coworkers, but he felt good about his decision and even if he might not be able to find another job on Moloka'i, it was worth it to him.

                    Again, please don't judge the people of Moloka'i on the basis of your standards. They live on an island with an ecosystem that is even more fragile than most other islands. And they want to protect what they have for as long as they can.

                    BTW: If you have around $4 million, you can buy the McAfee estate that's now up for sale in western Moloka'i.

                    Miulang
                    Last edited by Miulang; September 28, 2007, 10:22 AM.
                    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

                      What ever "creditability" is to you joshuatree, I assure you I can manage just fine without yours.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

                        Originally posted by craig foo View Post
                        What ever "creditability" is to you joshuatree, I assure you I can manage just fine without yours.
                        Craig let me pose this question to you, do want Hawaii to remain backwater state that is not progressively moving forward ?It seems there is a lot of
                        people in this state (including you) which espouse the politics of No.

                        Politics of no is a infectious disease, which there is a vocal minority that practically stop every project in this state. I could mention a laundry list of
                        projects that meet this criteria. It is deeply frustrating for me as it makes Hawaii look like a place which is horrible place to do business and full of country hicks.

                        In short, Hawaii will remain a backwater state until people get with the game plan here.
                        Check out my blog on Kona issues :
                        The Kona Blog

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

                          The problem is not that Hawaii is a back water state, the problem is that each of the island in this state have different ways of doing things. A solution to a problem may work on one island with no problem, while that same solution applied to another island will cause more problems. Also some people are afraid of being the guinea pig for new stuff.

                          That being the case what the SuperFerry should have done was to demostrate a limited run like a couple of weeks between two willing places of it's services.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

                            Originally posted by helen View Post
                            The problem is not that Hawaii is a back water state, the problem is that each of the island in this state have different ways of doing things.
                            I disagree, it seems there is a loud vocal minority on each island whom try to stall practically every new project. It also seems this loud vocal minority is
                            taking advantage of the majority through the courts or protesting.The even worse thing is that vocal minority is pushing their agenda on the majority.
                            Check out my blog on Kona issues :
                            The Kona Blog

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

                              Originally posted by craig foo View Post
                              --such specifics as: (1) What is the primary legal agricultural product of Kauai?
                              Are you implying that one of Kauai's agricultural products is an illegal substance? So your concern about Oahu residents coming and selling drugs is because they are going to compete with Kauai producers? Never mind. How about I just answer the question. The primary "legal" agriculture products of Kauai are coffee and flowers. Bananas, papayas, green vegetables, etc. are also part of what is produced on Kauai. There is also honey, taro, pork and numerous other items. Could there be more? Absolutely.

                              Originally posted by craig foo View Post
                              (2) How is that agricultural product shipped off of Kauai?
                              Right now they have to depend upon either the YB stranglehold or very expensive air freight. The HSF would allow an farmer/producer to take a vehicle they already own, drive onto the ferry and make the trip to deliver goods to Oahu (where it has been proven that people will pay a premium for quality, locally grown/produced products) for a cost significantly less than must be paid to YB and in a more timely fashion. The farmer/ag producer can then drive back on the HSF and go home. Faster, less expensive, more direct and with excellent potential that said farmer/producer will put the profits back into expanding their operation.

                              Originally posted by craig foo View Post
                              (3) What's the expected future of agriculture on Kauai when of all 4000 or so students of the public high schools on Kauai the educational system can field no more than 170 students, 150 who show up regularly, for high school agricultural science courses?
                              Originally posted by craig foo View Post
                              (4) If the prospect of agriculture is so bright for the next generation of farming on Kauai why is it that a fair half of the ag sci classes are composed of students who failed one of their their core science courses and just want to enjoy, for the minimal effort, the guarantee of not being left behind, even though they should have been for both their and society's sake!
                              I will respond to these questions as one as you are making essentially the same point which is that the future of agriculture on Kauai is dismal because present high school students are generally uninterested or incompetent. (While I personally applaud your philosophy of leaving behind those who don't put forth the effort to do their best, this is not a particularly helpful approach.) Nonetheless, as a society do we give up on brightening the future of agriculture simply because it doesn't appear to be appealing or do we make an effort to demonstrate and teach the value of such? How many energized and committed students would it take to help agriculture thrive? It would not take all 4,000 - in fact, let's presume that just half of the 150 who show up regularly could be motivated to pursue farming - those 75 could make all the difference. And, in the mid-term we would not depend upon current students to advance agriculture but rather upon those who are presently working the land. If the present farmers do well, there will be even more reason for young people to view farming in a positive light. I re-state my view that the HSF has the very real potential to help our farmers and producers of other locally produced goods prosper and flourish.
                              Last edited by glossyp; September 28, 2007, 02:06 PM. Reason: more info

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 5

                                Originally posted by Miulang View Post
                                The residents of Moloka'i may seem poor and backward to outsiders, but let me tell you, they are fiercely proud of who they are, and money is not the same all mighty god to them as it is to most other residents of the State.
                                Okay, I've been trying to stay out of this, but... there she goes again, making another outrageously massive overgeneralization without any proof whatsoever to back up her sheer and utter nonsense. Her remark is simply ignorant.
                                And of course since she lives in Seattle, how the hell could she possibly know how those of us who live in the state of Hawai`i feel?!??!!
                                She doesn't know how WE feel about the residents of Moloka`i, and she based her retort on what just one person wrote here, yet all of sudden all of the rest of us in the whole state supposedly feel the same way. What a load of crap. (Sorry, but that's what it is.)

                                Again, please don't judge the people of Moloka'i on the basis of your standards.
                                And (without a "please"), stop judging US from your home over 3,000 miles away!!!

                                And they want to protect what they have for as long as they can.
                                So, what, the rest of us DON'T want to protect what we have?
                                What an incredibly ignorant and flat-out DUMB remark.
                                Again.


                                (Since she supposedly has me on Ignore, somebody please quote this so she'll see it.)
                                Last edited by LikaNui; September 28, 2007, 02:17 PM. Reason: Fixed a typo, gonfunnit
                                .
                                .

                                That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

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