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The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

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  • #91
    Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

    I, too, am against the death penalty. The reasons Kalalau states are valid, and the "mistake" rate can be high. Perhaps the accusers should be made subject to the same rules such that they are certain not to lie in the courtroom.

    But my main argument against the death penalty goes something like this. Death is a punishment only to those with some sense of religion. Death certainly removes the problem from society, but it cannot possibly be perceived as a punishment by the living, because we really don't have enough information to actually know what happens on the other side. Therefore, death as a crime deterrent is ethereal, or even theoretic, at best. Perhaps nothing happens, and you don't remember it.

    A small hammer, large rock, hot sun, and little to eat or drink would be a good example of a punsishment. So would a cell with Bubba.
    FutureNewsNetwork.com
    Energy answers are already here.

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    • #92
      Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

      When it comes to murder, death penalty could be considered.

      When it comes to rape, I could think of other heinous punishments but our "lawful" society forbids cruel & unusual punishment. The convicted will live but he will wish for a merciful death penalty after the suffering he'll endure for his natural lives.

      I have to take BO's statement with a grain of salt (and salt is bad for me). It plays more on society's emotion than on society's conscience. I think in his case, he spoke as a father. What father would say no to the death penalty when it comes to his own children (unless you're the father of the rapist, not the victim).
      Beijing 8-08-08 to 8-24-08

      Tiananmen Square 4-15-89 to 6-04-89

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      • #93
        Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

        Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
        I ask you again. Should a 17 year old boy receive the death sentence for raping an 11 year old girl?
        As I said before, it is impossible to answer the question you pose, because you have provided none of the circumstances surrounding your theoretical scenario. Let me help you along, since you seem to be having trouble with this request...

        What is the relationship of the boy to the girl? Do the boy and the victim know each other? How? Are/were they boyfriend and girlfriend? Were there other crimes associated with the rape? (i.e. kidnapping, terroristic threatening, assault with a deadly weapon, etc.) What was the verdict on those crimes? Does the boy have a clean record? If not, were his other convictions rape crimes? How did police learn of the rape?

        The answers to these questions are what most investigators would describe as “circumstances.” This is what I had asked you to provide, which would allow me to express an informed opinion on whether or not the prosecutor should be allowed to seek the death penalty. I am assuming that your theoretical scenario took place in a state that allows such punishment for such a crime.

        We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

        — U.S. President Bill Clinton
        USA TODAY, page 2A
        11 March 1993

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        • #94
          Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

          It doesn't matter what the victim's age, the crime, various circumstances, emotional traumas, or whatever, the fact is that the death penalty is not acceptable behavior if we consider ourselves a decent society. Most all of us would LOVE to dispatch our worst actions upon the worst criminals, but that would make us at least as bad as them.

          And I've never understood wishing that 'they get theirs' while in prison, even tho I've felt it as well. They get their sentence and serve it, and should have the rights and abilities to do so without even the fear of rape, beating, or murder. This hasn't been the case for virtually all of US incareration history, and the penal system is way out of wack. Unfortunately, the courts get it wrong in both directions all to often, maybe usually, but it's up to us to get it corrected, and it don't look like that will happen in my lifetime.
          https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

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          • #95
            Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

            I used to believe in the death penalty. I just have a problem when coming face to face with it. The movie, Dead Man Walking, with Sean Penn, bothered me for days.

            I can say that I agree to "other" punishments for some even lesser crimes. I have gone so far as to say neutering without anesthetics on the way to prison. (Sorry gents -- don't wince, I would probably recant after chilling out a little.)

            However, I agree with the other person who said Obama was talking like a father. If I were a parent in such a situation, I don't know if I would ever find the strength of character to want anything less than torturous pain for the perpetrator. Maternal instincts are strong even when you don't have any of your own. We can try to be forgiving, but not when you hurt our babies!
            Aloha,
            Evelyn
            Homespun Honolulu

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            • #96
              Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

              Originally posted by Sprite View Post
              I can say that I agree to "other" punishments for some even lesser crimes. I have gone so far as to say neutering without anesthetics on the way to prison. (Sorry gents -- don't wince, I would probably recant after chilling out a little.)
              Meh. We may have instinctively crossed our legs but if the guy deserves it, he deserves to lose his manhood for acting less of a man to the opposite sex.

              Originally posted by Sprite View Post
              However, I agree with the other person who said Obama was talking like a father. If I were a parent in such a situation, I don't know if I would ever find the strength of character to want anything less than torturous pain for the perpetrator. Maternal instincts are strong even when you don't have any of your own. We can try to be forgiving, but not when you hurt our babies!
              Not to get all preachy, but that is where the true power of forgiveness lie. To forgive someone who doesn't deserve it, even a sadistic rapist. It's a friggin' paradox.

              Then again, we're all imperfect humans...
              Beijing 8-08-08 to 8-24-08

              Tiananmen Square 4-15-89 to 6-04-89

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              • #97
                Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

                Point taken, Random. It's hard to forgive sometimes. "Forgiveness is Divine!" It is what we should aim for. Sigh.

                For the record, I wasn't referring to rape when I said "lesser" crime. I don't think rape is a 'lesser" crime but I'm also not a woman who cries wolf and sexual harassment at the drop of a hat. Definitely a case by case kind of thing!

                Thanks for being preachy (even though you weren't)... it's refreshing and heart warming!

                Hugs!
                Aloha,
                Evelyn
                Homespun Honolulu

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                • #98
                  Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

                  Originally posted by TuNnL View Post
                  As I said before, it is impossible to answer the question you pose, because you have provided none of the circumstances surrounding your theoretical scenario. Let me help you along, since you seem to be having trouble with this request...
                  You think I'm having some sort of "trouble" in this thread. Actually no. I'm trying to lead up to another question here, which we will get to in a moment.

                  Originally posted by TuNnL View Post
                  What is the relationship of the boy to the girl? Do the boy and the victim know each other? How? Are/were they boyfriend and girlfriend? Were there other crimes associated with the rape? (i.e. kidnapping, terroristic threatening, assault with a deadly weapon, etc.) What was the verdict on those crimes? Does the boy have a clean record? If not, were his other convictions rape crimes? How did police learn of the rape?

                  The answers to these questions are what most investigators would describe as “circumstances.” This is what I had asked you to provide, which would allow me to express an informed opinion on whether or not the prosecutor should be allowed to seek the death penalty. I am assuming that your theoretical scenario took place in a state that allows such punishment for such a crime.
                  All very reasonable-sounding points you make. Lots of circumstances to consider.

                  Now let me ask you this. Are you saying that, under all the proper circumstances, a minor who is convicted of child rape should be subject to the possibility of receiving a death sentence? If so, then let me also ask you this.

                  Do you think that the possibility for a minor being put on death row for committing child rape should exist when at this point, there is currently no law existing for a minor to receive capital punishment for murder, under any circumstances?

                  Just my opinion, but that doesn't make any sense.
                  This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

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                  • #99
                    Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

                    Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
                    let me ask you this. Are you saying that, under all the proper circumstances, a minor who is convicted of child rape should be subject to the possibility of receiving a death sentence?
                    That would depend on what your definition of a minor is. Let’s take your 17 year-old, for example. What if he turned 18 the day authorities caught him, but he hadn’t touched the 11-year-old girl that day? What if the girl didn’t know him? What if he bashed her head in with a baseball bat in order to kidnap her and chained her in the basement of an abandoned home? What if he forcibly raped and sodomized her five times a day for a period of 16 weeks, tortured her, and barely fed her until she had third-degree burns and was near death before authorities finally found him? What if had already served time in juvenile detention for rape, had raped in inmate while in juvie, was released and was already wanted for violating parole?

                    Here in Hawai‘i, we have already tried several minors as adults, due to the heinousness of the crimes they committed. We also have two minors (one who raped another inmate in juvenile detention) on trial for murder of a good samaritan in Waikīkī. The victim was only trying to help another man that the pair were allegedly beating the crap out of when he tried to stop them from allegedly robbing his companion.

                    So to answer your question, if, and only if, we’re talking about the minor in the scenario I have outlined for you, then yes, I would favor allowing the prosecutor to seek the death penalty in a jurisdiction that allowed it, because the prosecutor can try this individual as an adult, should the judge in the case grant a motion to do so.

                    We need to start putting a value on public safety, which isn’t served by giving the most vile criminals three hots and a cot and medical care at taxpayer’s expense.

                    We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

                    — U.S. President Bill Clinton
                    USA TODAY, page 2A
                    11 March 1993

                    Comment


                    • Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

                      This has taken a very non-Presidential spin*, hasn't it?




                      (* = see thread title)

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                      • Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

                        Originally posted by timkona View Post
                        Give ... McCain his fair shake regardless of age.
                        Funny to read that statement, coming from a man who has repeatedly posted his own negative generalizations and judgements about an entire group of Americans whose only commonality is their age.
                        Examples here...
                        ...and here...
                        ...and here...
                        ...and here...
                        ...and here...
                        ...and here...
                        ...and here...
                        ...and here.
                        (There are plenty more postings in this vein.)

                        Sorry, Tim, but your admonition rings hollow.

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                        • Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

                          Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
                          This has taken a very non-Presidential spin*, hasn't it?

                          (* = see thread title)
                          Granted, we have gotten off-track but it cannot be ignored when Presidential Candidate BO made that remark.

                          Nevertheless, it is best to move on. Further discussion regarding death penalty on rape crime -- regardless if the convicted perpetrator is male or female ... LeTourneau comes to mind -- should be in another thread.
                          Beijing 8-08-08 to 8-24-08

                          Tiananmen Square 4-15-89 to 6-04-89

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                          • Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

                            Obama supporters take middle name "Hussein" as their own

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                            • Re: The 2008 Presidential Elections - Chapter 3

                              Latest name being bandied about for Obama as VP choice: Rep. Gephardt.
                              GOP strategists say they "fear him most."

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                              • Who, Dick 'BOO!' Gephardt?

                                John Edwards would have been better, and he was a proven loser.
                                https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

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