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  • #16
    Re: Hawaiian Airlines' New Mileage Policy

    Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
    Obviously, you don't have to justify any of your consumer decisions to me or to anyone else here.

    You may not have started this thread, complaining about HAL's rewards program policy change. However, you did chime in with your thoughts re: go! airlines into the discussion. So if your sentiments about go! airlines have nothing to do with the discussion re: modifications to the Hawn. Miles program, then I have to wonder why you chose this thread to make your statement. (There are existing threads that are devoted to the interisland airline industry in general. Or of course, one can always start a new thread devoted to go! airlines in particular.)

    Nonetheless, I apologize if you took my statement personally. You've made it clear that my words do not apply to you. However, I stand behind my thoughts about those locals who incessantly complain about HAL's service, and yet refuse to patronize go! or Island Air. There are people like that out there.
    No, I "chimed in" with a comment regarding Go's mileage policy. I have no complaints about HAL and don't believe I have ever voiced any on any thread. and post #1 of this thread was not really a complaint about HAL's service - just a comment on their new mileage policy. that post mentioned the name of GO airlines and I commented on that. my post really had nothing to do with you. as your signature line says - we have opinions that may differ. don't take it personally (i'm paraphrasing here).
    Last edited by anapuni808; May 28, 2011, 07:08 PM.
    "Democracy is the only system that persists in asking the powers that be whether they are the powers that ought to be."
    – Sydney J. Harris

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    • #17
      Re: Hawaiian Airlines' New Mileage Policy

      You can keep the mileage rate if you have their Hawaiian Airlines credit card or purchase one.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Hawaiian Airlines' New Mileage Policy

        Originally posted by matapule View Post
        Sure, don't fly with them and watch them go out of business.
        If any business can't adapt to the demands and conditions of today's marketplace, yep, out of business they go. Life goes on.

        You're talking to someone who doesn't believe in anything being "too big to fail" in the airline industry.

        Originally posted by matapule View Post
        Check their financial statements! You do know how to read a financial statement, right?
        That's interesting. Which airlines not going through bankruptcy currently has their books open to the public? And where can they be accessed?

        Will it show the airlines presently struggling with rising fuel costs not hedging deals in the past when they had the chance?

        If I shoot myself in the foot with short-sighted decisions that ruin my company in the long run, I'm not going to walk around with a tin cup and try to get people to feel sorry for me. Neither do I accept that mentality when it comes to the airline biz.

        That's just how I feel. YVMV.
        This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Hawaiian Airlines' New Mileage Policy

          whether Go airlines was the bad guy, let's look at the end result, Hawaiian came out the winner. Yes Go cut their fares, so did Hawaiian. Hawaiian was just at fault here for Aloha's demise. Aloha Airlines also had it's own internal issues that kept it from being competitive against even a smaller unknown called Go.

          Then when you look at Hawaiian's actions during the time Aloha was crumbling to pieces when Hawaiian was building up routes thruout the south pacific and modernizing it's fleet of aircraft during a time of economic hardships, it was as if Hawaiian knew Aloha would dissolve into nothing and was preparing itself to pick up the pieces where Aloha left.

          Remember Hawaiian and Aloha airlines were fierce competitors bent on driving each other into the ground. There was no aloha between the two. Go Airlines simply tipped the balance in favor of Hawaiian.

          In the end, between Go, Aloha and Hawaiian, Hawaiian Airlines not only came out the winner, but seems to have turned a major profit during a very bleak period of our economic recession. And now Hawaiian is driving a symbolic nail into the coffin by doing the Walmart move, by removing incentives and raising prices simply because they can. Remember, crude oil is dropping in price? Yet I don't see airfare doing the same, as a matter of fact, it's going up despite plummeting oil prices.

          Hawaiian is the real issue here, not Go. They've maneuvered themselves as a somewhat monopoly by making themselves the only airlines we will travel out of respect for Aloha Airlines, their only real competitor that they managed to drive into the ground.

          Yes Go Airlines is a crappy airlines, but you don't see Hawaiian airlines worrying about it's only competition. They're raising everything and telling everybody including loyal patrons that it's too bad and there's nothing you can do about it. What are you going to do about it? Fly Go? Apparently those loyal to Aloha and now fly Hawaiian won't, and you can bet that Hawaiian knows that.

          As they say, "we got you by the balls". Hawaiian is the true bad guy here, Go was simply the scapegoat. I wonder who sits on Go's board of directors...my hunch is it's someone with pull from Hawaiian pulling the strings on this puppet airlines.
          Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

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          • #20
            Re: Hawaiian Airlines' New Mileage Policy (Big Deal...)

            Originally posted by craigwatanabe View Post
            Hawaiian is the true bad guy here,
            I'm just not that disturbed by their policy changes. They used to round up interisland flights to 500 miles, now they use actual miles (unless you are one of their special customers or have their mileage plus credit card).

            For example: (excerpted from their explanation website)

            Interisland............Former.....New
            Honolulu - Hilo.......500.........216
            Honolulu - Kona.....500.........163
            Honolulu - Lihue.....500.........102
            Honolulu - Kahului...500.........101
            Lihue - Kahului.......500.........201
            Hilo - Kahului.........500.........120
            Kona - Kahului.......500...........84

            With HA selling blocks of 500 miles for $13.44, it's no big loss. The most drastic difference has you losing about $11.19! Hardly anything to get excited about unless you commute daily.
            Last edited by Kaonohi; May 29, 2011, 12:26 AM. Reason: Secret Formula
            Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
            ~ ~
            Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
            Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
            Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

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            • #21
              Re: Hawaiian Airlines' New Mileage Policy

              Originally posted by AbsolutChaos View Post
              I agree that they've done it to themselves by trying to undercut the competition to the point that it comes down to which airlines have the reserves to deliberately "starve" themselves in order to gain/keep customers until they choke the competitors into throwing in the towel.
              Interesting point. Remember when the airline industry was regulated by the Government? Price regulation was done to insure that airlines would not use unfair pricing to force competition out of business. Well, consumers got what they wanted - no regulation and short term (and shortsighted) price decreases. But fewer airlines means less competition which leads to eventual higher prices and fewer flight benefits.

              However, this latest move simply moves me closer and closer to the reality that flying these days has come to picking between the lesser of many evils instead of the "adventure" and real start to my vacation that it used to be.
              I remember my first ride on Continental Trailways bus line! They had an on-board stewardess (it was pc to call them that then) with "free" meals! That was the height of luxury! Today, bus travel is tu'u mama'o.

              I remember my first ride on the Santa Fe Chief, all the way from Fresno to Topeka. I sat in the Vista Dome car and I was on top of the world! My seat even reclined so I could sleep like a baby at night! Today, train travel is tu'u mama'o.

              I remember my first ride on an airplane, Fresno to San Fran (on a DC6) connecting to Seattle (on a 707). Men were wearing coat and tie in coach and the meals were gourmet! I thought I would go comatose from the excitement! Yes, Chaos, airline travel today is tu'u mama'o. What with pat downs, and schlepping carry-ons, and lost luggage, and delayed flights, and no leg room, and some kid kicking the back of your seat for 4 hours........it is still an adventure but not a good one.

              Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
              If any business can't adapt to the demands and conditions of today's marketplace, yep, out of business they go. Life goes on.

              You're talking to someone who doesn't believe in anything being "too big to fail" in the airline industry.
              Fine, but don't complain about the results after the fact.

              That's interesting. Which airlines not going through bankruptcy currently has their books open to the public? And where can they be accessed?
              Corporate books of all airlines are open to the public.

              Will it show the airlines presently struggling with rising fuel costs not hedging deals in the past when they had the chance?
              Easier said than done. Southwest Airlines was able to undercut the market for years because they bought futures in the oil industry. Eventually they were flying with less expensive fuel than their competition. Today, Southwest has used all their "futures" and they pay the same price for fuel as everyone else, and their prices are creeping up to stay in business.

              Is buying oil futures a smart business practice? Maybe. What happens if the price of fuel goes down? An airline could find themselves with costly futures that would be uneconomical to use. And then an airline would need a lot of cash to buy those futures. Cash is not something that airlines have a lot of today. So, FM, your criticisms and solutions are simplistic at best.

              If I shoot myself in the foot with short-sighted decisions that ruin my company in the long run, I'm not going to walk around with a tin cup and try to get people to feel sorry for me. Neither do I accept that mentality when it comes to the airline biz.
              Again, fine, but if you, the consumer, shoot yourself in the foot by flying at the lowest cost, then don't walk around with a tin cup and try to get people to feel sorry for you when they cut back on services and benefits to maintain those cheap fares.

              Yes, it is short-sighted for the airlines to give into Union wage demands. Eventually it leads to the prospect of unprofitability. The alternative is to say "no" to unreasonable Union demands and have the Union go on strike for days, weeks, or months. Some airlines have decided that it is better to just close down operations rather than try to assuage the Union.

              And then we have the cost of fuel. Airlines struggle to stay in business while the oil companies are making windfall profits. What is wrong with that equation? It is time to repeal the tax breaks for the oil companies!
              Last edited by matapule; May 29, 2011, 02:27 AM.
              Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

              People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Hawaiian Airlines' New Mileage Policy

                Originally posted by matapule View Post
                Fine, but don't complain about the results after the fact.
                Perfectly fine. You'll never catch me in a million years begging for bailout money. Other people aren't as shameless.

                Originally posted by matapule View Post
                Corporate books of all airlines are open to the public.
                You didn't answer the question I asked earlier. Where can I access the complete financial records for each airline company not in bankruptcy? Or do you expect everyone here to take everything you say at face value?

                Originally posted by matapule View Post
                Is buying oil futures a smart business practice? Maybe. What happens if the price of fuel goes down? An airline could find themselves with costly futures that would be uneconomical to use. And then an airline would need a lot of cash to buy those futures. Cash is not something that airlines have a lot of today. So, FM, your criticisms and solutions are simplistic at best.
                Matapule, welcome to Commodities 101, where intelligent decision making, careful analysis, and calculated risk-taking on purchasing futures and options mean the difference between success and failure for a company. You keep saying my thinking is "simplistic." Yet, you totally failed to grasp how key decisions (or non-decisions, as the case may be) on the part of each carrier made a big difference in being able to weather the rise in fuel and the costs of doing operations.

                It's up to you to believe in the notion of treating your favorite struggling airline as being a charity case rather than an honest-to-goodness business. Just don't expect everyone to drink that Kool-Aid. Especially from those of us who have to look for jobs which exist on the basis of real-world profitability.
                Last edited by Frankie's Market; May 29, 2011, 09:15 AM.
                This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Hawaiian Airlines' New Mileage Policy

                  Originally posted by craigwatanabe View Post
                  whether Go airlines was the bad guy, let's look at the end result, Hawaiian came out the winner. Yes Go cut their fares, so did Hawaiian. Hawaiian was just at fault here for Aloha's demise.
                  Truer words have never been said. And yet, many people continue to delude themselves into the myth about why Aloha was not able to survive. Some folks (like HAL) have an obvious business agenda in perpetuating that myth. Other people with no profit motive involved, well, it just goes to show how powerful propaganda can be.
                  This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Hawaiian Airlines' New Mileage Policy

                    Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
                    You didn't answer the question I asked earlier. Where can I access the complete financial records for each airline company not in bankruptcy? Or do you expect everyone here to take everything you say at face value?
                    I expect you to Google whatever airline you want.......or do I need to spoon feed you with the exact URL?

                    Yet, you totally failed to grasp how key decisions (or non-decisions, as the case may be) on the part of each carrier made a big difference in being able to weather the rise in fuel and the costs of doing operations.
                    I think I understand. HAL has made the business decision to modify their mileage plan in order to weather the rise in cost of fuel and operations. I don't understand why some here are complaining. It is a reality of business.

                    It's up to you to believe in the notion of treating your favorite struggling airline as being a charity case rather than an honest-to-goodness business.
                    I don't think airlines should be charity cases. I think the Governement needs to step in once again and regulate the industry. The Government should establish a fare schedule that will allow a fair profit for a well run airline. How does a $1000 round trip fare Hawaii/mainland sound to you?
                    Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                    People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Hawaiian Airlines' New Mileage Policy (Big Deal...)

                      Originally posted by Kaonohi View Post
                      I'm just not that disturbed by their policy changes. They used to round up interisland flights to 500 miles, now they use actual miles (unless you are one of their special customers or have their mileage plus credit card).

                      For example: (excerpted from their explanation website)

                      Interisland............Former.....New
                      Honolulu - Hilo.......500.........216
                      Honolulu - Kona.....500.........163
                      Honolulu - Lihue.....500.........102
                      Honolulu - Kahului...500.........101
                      Lihue - Kahului.......500.........201
                      Hilo - Kahului.........500.........120
                      Kona - Kahului.......500...........84

                      With HA selling blocks of 500 miles for $13.44, it's no big loss. The most drastic difference has you losing about $11.19! Hardly anything to get excited about unless you commute daily.
                      It actually is a big difference. Since flying 15 OW interisland flights would accrue 7500 miles for a free OW interisland flight, using the $ value you've listed, that be 15 x $11.19 for $167.85 extra for anyone aiming for an award ticket. But it's the sign of times, fuel and labor are two huge op costs.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Hawaiian Airlines' New Mileage Policy

                        Originally posted by craigwatanabe View Post
                        whether Go airlines was the bad guy, let's look at the end result, Hawaiian came out the winner. Yes Go cut their fares, so did Hawaiian. Hawaiian was just at fault here for Aloha's demise. Aloha Airlines also had it's own internal issues that kept it from being competitive against even a smaller unknown called Go.

                        Then when you look at Hawaiian's actions during the time Aloha was crumbling to pieces when Hawaiian was building up routes thruout the south pacific and modernizing it's fleet of aircraft during a time of economic hardships, it was as if Hawaiian knew Aloha would dissolve into nothing and was preparing itself to pick up the pieces where Aloha left.

                        Remember Hawaiian and Aloha airlines were fierce competitors bent on driving each other into the ground. There was no aloha between the two. Go Airlines simply tipped the balance in favor of Hawaiian.

                        In the end, between Go, Aloha and Hawaiian, Hawaiian Airlines not only came out the winner, but seems to have turned a major profit during a very bleak period of our economic recession. And now Hawaiian is driving a symbolic nail into the coffin by doing the Walmart move, by removing incentives and raising prices simply because they can. Remember, crude oil is dropping in price? Yet I don't see airfare doing the same, as a matter of fact, it's going up despite plummeting oil prices.

                        Hawaiian is the real issue here, not Go. They've maneuvered themselves as a somewhat monopoly by making themselves the only airlines we will travel out of respect for Aloha Airlines, their only real competitor that they managed to drive into the ground.

                        Yes Go Airlines is a crappy airlines, but you don't see Hawaiian airlines worrying about it's only competition. They're raising everything and telling everybody including loyal patrons that it's too bad and there's nothing you can do about it. What are you going to do about it? Fly Go? Apparently those loyal to Aloha and now fly Hawaiian won't, and you can bet that Hawaiian knows that.

                        As they say, "we got you by the balls". Hawaiian is the true bad guy here, Go was simply the scapegoat. I wonder who sits on Go's board of directors...my hunch is it's someone with pull from Hawaiian pulling the strings on this puppet airlines.
                        Interesting that no one mentions Island Air, are they serving no one?

                        Ultimately, the only way interisland fares can be lowered and sustainable is if one of the operators switches over to large turboprops. For such short lights, a prop can perform just as fast (maybe 5-10 min more) yet consume 20% less fuel.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Hawaiian Airlines' New Mileage Policy

                          Originally posted by matapule View Post
                          I expect you to Google whatever airline you want.......or do I need to spoon feed you with the exact URL?
                          Well, I've spent the last 15 minutes trying to google the accounting books for several of the major commercial carriers.... and failed.

                          Mock me if you want. I can't find that info.

                          So yes, I guess you're gonna have to spoon feed me the URLs which contain the financial information for each of the airlines.

                          I am more than eager to be shown solid and comprehensive data which would cause me to revise my thinking.... if in fact, such information does exist. So please lead the way.

                          Originally posted by matapule View Post
                          I don't think airlines should be charity cases. I think the Governement needs to step in once again and regulate the industry.
                          Suffice it to say, we're definitely going to have to agree to disagree on this.
                          This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Hawaiian Airlines' New Mileage Policy

                            Originally posted by matapule View Post
                            Corporate books of all airlines are open to the public.
                            Is this the sort of info to which you refer? (The link is to the detailed financials of Hawaiian Airlines for the first quarter of 2011, for those who want to know before they click.) Easily found online, in fewer than two minutes.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Hawaiian Airlines' New Mileage Policy

                              Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                              Ultimately, the only way interisland fares can be lowered and sustainable is if one of the operators switches over to large turboprops. For such short lights, a prop can perform just as fast (maybe 5-10 min more) yet consume 20% less fuel.
                              Was that Mahalo Airlines?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Hawaiian Airlines' New Mileage Policy

                                Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
                                Is this the sort of info to which you refer? (The link is to the detailed financials of Hawaiian Airlines for the first quarter of 2011, for those who want to know before they click.) Easily found online, in fewer than two minutes.
                                if an airline (or any company) is publicly owned, they have to make SEC filings yearly. those filings are usually included in a company's annual report which is often available through a company's website - such as Hawaiian Holdings. For anyone who knows how to use a search engine, these are pretty easy to find.
                                Last edited by anapuni808; May 29, 2011, 11:53 PM.
                                "Democracy is the only system that persists in asking the powers that be whether they are the powers that ought to be."
                                – Sydney J. Harris

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