Rail Transit

[joshuatree]

Re: Rail Transit

The problem with TheBus is that it's public transportation with all the problems and riders that go along with it. My suggestion is to allow private transportation to compete with it. Since it wouldn't be taxpayer subsidized, the price would reflect that, but at the same time it would be designed to attract those who can afford it. I think this would have a better chance of attracting people out of their cars rather then punishing them out of them.

Unless rail is able to do something different and get enough middle class to ride it and keep things clean, I think it will suffer the same ridership issues as TheBus.

That's possible but I fear if you have a public transit and a private compete head to head, the public one will lose out. If the private one is able to price reasonably close to the public one, chances are good that the private one will cannibalize the ridership of the public which means downward spiral of death. If that's the case, better to just completely privatized The Bus though I can already hear the concerns of fare increases so thus the quandry.

That's one of the arguments for rail. That rail itself has a better transportation image to the middle class and will have a better chance at attracting more ridership. I know the anti-rail folks disagree but speaking from experience, if a route is served by bus and rail, I pick rail any day, not unless if the rail fare is so much more that I can't justify it.

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Rail Transit

Pacific Business News had a survey for its readers a couple of weeks ago that asked if readers would ride TheBus if it was free. 60% said they would while 32% said they wouldn't.

Ummmm. I'm not sure exactly what that means. Given that it seems to have been nothing but a web poll, it doesn't mean a lot. I have a very hard time believing that cost issues are what's preventing people from riding now. Far more telling is the comments.

I did see some good ideas, such as daily parking rates with in/out privileges. The idea being that some people have to use their car, but not every day. Allow them to pocket the savings of only using the car when they have to instead of having to pay monthly parking.

[Miulang]

Re: Rail Transit

, such as daily parking rates with in/out privileges. The idea being that some people have to use their car, but not every day. Allow them to pocket the savings of only using the car when they have to instead of having to pay monthly parking.

There IS a way for this to happen. I just have to convince the CEO of Flexcar that it's time for him to set up a franchise in Honolulu...with me as GM!
Miulang

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Rail Transit

That's possible but I fear if you have a public transit and a private compete head to head, the public one will lose out.

So rather then have a great system created by private enterprise and competition, we end up with a monopolistic public one. How lame.

If the private one is able to price reasonably close to the public one,

Not a chance. TheBus is heavily taxpayer subsidized. I'm not suggesting that the private ones be given any subsidy. What I'm looking for is the private ones to create a upscale transportation system for those willing to pay for it. Picture a bus ride that's more like an interisland flight. A tourist bus. CCN headline news with captions on the overhead monitors. A wireless link to the Internet so you can use your laptop. Perhaps some papers and a thermos of coffee in the front. The idea being to lure people out of their cars by freeing them from the driving and allowing them to make productive use of their commute.

BTW, I think TheBus IS private. It's run by Oahu Transit Services. So I fail to see how your proposals would change anything.

That's one of the arguments for rail. That rail itself has a better transportation image to the middle class and will have a better chance at attracting more ridership. I know the anti-rail folks disagree but speaking from experience, if a route is served by bus and rail, I pick rail any day, not unless if the rail fare is so much more that I can't justify it.

I have a hard time believing that rail ridership would be any different from the existing bus ridership. Why would it?

[joshuatree]

Re: Rail Transit

I did see some good ideas, such as daily parking rates with in/out privileges. The idea being that some people have to use their car, but not every day. Allow them to pocket the savings of only using the car when they have to instead of having to pay monthly parking.

That would help people but I don't see how it would benefit the business that runs the parking garage. For them, maximizing profit is what matters, nature of the game I suppose.

So rather then have a great system created by private enterprise and competition, we end up with a monopolistic public one. How lame.

Well, if you have a private enterprise that cannibalizes the public one, that translates to even more subsidies to the public one so that's not good either. If you want to take the private route, I suggest getting rid of the public one and permitting more than one private to compete. Of course, we're assuming if there are any private parties even interested.

Picture a bus ride that's more like an interisland flight. A tourist bus. CCN headline news with captions on the overhead monitors. A wireless link to the Internet so you can use your laptop. Perhaps some papers and a thermos of coffee in the front. The idea being to lure people out of their cars by freeing them from the driving and allowing them to make productive use of their commute.

All nice but what do you think the fare would be on a private bus given the listed amenities?

BTW, I think TheBus IS private. It's run by Oahu Transit Services. So I fail to see how your proposals would change anything.

It is quasi-private. OTS is contracted by the city to run the operations. A true private would mean no subsidies as you mentioned earlier.

I have a hard time believing that rail ridership would be any different from the existing bus ridership. Why would it?

Because even if you had a private bus system with all the amenities to entice riders, it is still at the mercy of road traffic. A rail is also a smoother ride (maybe vs a fancy private bus this may not be noticeable), and it can be very punctual assuming the rail is run right of course.

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Rail Transit

That would help people but I don't see how it would benefit the business that runs the parking garage. For them, maximizing profit is what matters, nature of the game I suppose.

True enough. Although it does bring some insight on why people drive. This was a case of someone indicating that he'd like to leave his car home some days but the cost structure of parking prevented that. If it's found to make a significant difference, there's ways of making that happen.

Well, if you have a private enterprise that cannibalizes the public one, that translates to even more subsidies to the public one so that's not good either.

You know, I doubt if the current fare is really contributing that much to operations. Fewer riders either will open up seats for more people, or will allow fewer busses and therefor lower operating costs.

All nice but what do you think the fare would be on a private bus given the listed amenities?

Probably not that much more then a tour bus. The bus and driver would still be the biggest cost. Wireless could be provided as a add-on subscription so it would pay it's own way. If cost is a factor, people could bring their own papers. Coffee doesn't cost that much. Not sure how to work the CNN, but most tour buses have overhead TVs already. Again, the idea here is to attract people out of their cars by taking out from behind the wheel which limits what they can do. Even if the fare comes out to the cost of commuting by car they are still ahead. If I had to guess at some wild numbers, $10/day, $200/month might be on the high side. Certainly it would start off for the executive. For a high-paid guy, freeing up 2-4 hours would be well worth it. Possibly create some incentives by allowing employees to pay for the service without taxing it as if it was salary - non-taxed perk.

Because even if you had a private bus system with all the amenities to entice riders, it is still at the mercy of road traffic. A rail is also a smoother ride (maybe vs a fancy private bus this may not be noticeable), and it can be very punctual assuming the rail is run right of course.

True. Not as good as rail in some ways, but then the taxpayer ain't paying for it and it would reduce the number of cars on the road. I'm pointing out that it's something we haven't tried yet. And all we'd need to do is *repeal* some exiting laws and see if private enterprise wouldn't create some solutions for us.

[joshuatree]

Re: Rail Transit

You know, I doubt if the current fare is really contributing that much to operations. Fewer riders either will open up seats for more people, or will allow fewer busses and therefor lower operating costs.

Read the farebox recovery ratio was something like 29%.

Probably not that much more then a tour bus. The bus and driver would still be the biggest cost. Wireless could be provided as a add-on subscription so it would pay it's own way. If cost is a factor, people could bring their own papers. Coffee doesn't cost that much. Not sure how to work the CNN, but most tour buses have overhead TVs already. Again, the idea here is to attract people out of their cars by taking out from behind the wheel which limits what they can do. Even if the fare comes out to the cost of commuting by car they are still ahead. If I had to guess at some wild numbers, $10/day, $200/month might be on the high side. Certainly it would start off for the executive. For a high-paid guy, freeing up 2-4 hours would be well worth it. Possibly create some incentives by allowing employees to pay for the service without taxing it as if it was salary - non-taxed perk.

I checked Roberts Hawaii's airport shuttle, figure that would be a good comparo, one way between Waikiki and Airport is $9. So $10 min would be reasonable considering it would be more distance for a daily commuter bus.

True. Not as good as rail in some ways, but then the taxpayer ain't paying for it and it would reduce the number of cars on the road. I'm pointing out that it's something we haven't tried yet. And all we'd need to do is *repeal* some exiting laws and see if private enterprise wouldn't create some solutions for us.

Guess we should have tried something like that perhaps in the years when BRT was being touted. Pro-bus camp was at its full strength then.

Regarding removing some laws, I read there's several Chinese immigrant owned bus companies in the New England area giving Greyhound a run for its money. They buy used, refurbished tour buses, and hire non-union and a lot of time non-English speaking bus drivers to make NYC-Boston runs. Cost of fare, $15. And they make money. Apparently, it's gotten so popular that not only immigrant Chinese people use them but even everyone else. Imagine if we had something like that here. But I can only picture our union dominated govt stepping in and breaking it up.

Btw, Happy New Year, not that far off.

[GeckoGeek]

Re: Rail Transit

But I can only picture our union dominated govt stepping in and breaking it up.

I wouldn't be surprised.

[Miulang]

Re: Rail Transit

Regarding removing some laws, I read there's several Chinese immigrant owned bus companies in the New England area giving Greyhound a run for its money. They buy used, refurbished tour buses, and hire non-union and a lot of time non-English speaking bus drivers to make NYC-Boston runs. Cost of fare, $15. And they make money. Apparently, it's gotten so popular that not only immigrant Chinese people use them but even everyone else. Imagine if we had something like that here.

A review of the Fung Wah bus company that runs routes between Chinatown in Boston and Chinatown, NYC. There are apparently several different companies (some apparently not-so-legal) that offer the same service. Or for about the same price as a one-way commuter airplane ticket, you could take the Limoliner ($79 OW) and have all the amenities you want.

Miulang

[joshuatree]

Re: Rail Transit

A review of the Fung Wah bus company that runs routes between Chinatown in Boston and Chinatown, NYC. There are apparently several different companies (some apparently not-so-legal) that offer the same service. Or for about the same price as a one-way commuter airplane ticket, you could take the Limoliner ($79 OW) and have all the amenities you want.

Miulang

Wow, it's even cheaper than I remembered, $10 one way. Unless you really need to travel in style for the 4 hr drive, $79 one way can literally buy you ~8 trips or 4 times between NYC and Boston.

[Hellbent]

Re: Rail Transit

From Fark: Governor wants to build railroad. Problem: Nobody would ride the railroad and the state can't afford it. Solution: Build a casino at the end of the railroad

Hmm... rail to Kahoolawe? =P

[Composite 2992]

Re: Rail Transit

I'm in Japan right now, in a hotel situated right across the street from the Shinkansen bullet train station.

If I didn't look out the window, I wouldn't know the train was passing through.

When people air concerns about the noise of rail transit, they need to look at this 400-foot-long train enter and leave the station. It's whisper quiet. No kidding! Mopeds, trucks and those stupid modified mufflers on Hondas make more noise than this thing.

Something else we noticed: The stations are extremely busy. Not just places to load and unload passengers, but as areas of commerce. Shopping malls thrive in these places.

These are some valuable lessons Honolulu could learn and apply in their proposed venture.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Rail Transit

Not to mention the joy of knowing that, with the majority of Japan's inner-city trains, you don't need to worry about schedules - if you miss one train, there's another one coming along in just a few minutes.

Vancouver, BC, has a similar system with their SkyTrain. First built for Expo '86, the regional community governments have continued to build on additional extensions and lines into outlying areas. In addition, you can easily pay one fare and transfer onto buses and certain ferries within the metropolitan areas. You could easily get between a home in suburban Maple Ridge to a job in downtown Vancouver, and never need a car.

Seattle continues to be bogged down in their inability to complete an efficient system, unfortunately.

[waioli kai]

Crimes and misconceivers ,, Re: Rail Transit

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--Seattle continues to be bogged down in their inability to complete an efficient system, unfortunately.-- Leo Lakio

If there is going to be a distant future human perspective of history some facts are certain to be established. One is that US's long (beginning with Bush1) war on Iraq is a war crime. Another is that the establishment of Israel in Palestine is also a war crime. Another is that Edison's incadescent light was an idea that should have died soon after its infancy (as did Edison's direct current electrical distribution ideas*). Another is that the private automobile and all of the public transportation infrastructure eliminated then replaced by massive private automobile-friendly infrastructures using untold public wealth in order to promote the private automobile industry, US oil companies and New England banking empires is a crime against humanity.

On the latter point one can site the longstanding transportation dilemmas throughout the United States' transportation -it is not a 'system' as much as it is managed/tolerated--> chaos whose resultant deaths, maimings and economic and social malignancy is accepted as just one "of the costs of living in the modern world".

At the beginning of the 20th Century there was an electric-powered rail system that regularly serviced society from Northern California to Seattle. The right-of-way for the rail system was well established. Who was not served by this system? The automotive, oil and New England banking industries. So guess who won out?...not the overwheming majority of citizens of the Northwest U.S., of course. Virtually the same outcome precipitated throughout the 48 United States and the two territories the U.S. later made into more of its states.

*WIZARD: The Life and Times of Nikola Tesla, by Marc J. Seifer www.netsense.net/tesla/

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[joshuatree]

Re: Crimes and misconceivers ,, Re: Rail Transit

Another is that Edison's incadescent light was an idea that should have died soon after its infancy (as did Edison's direct current electrical distribution ideas*).

So you're saying we should all be living by candle light? Or are you saying we should have moved to fluorescents or LEDs sooner? If it's the former, I find that ironic because you're posting on a PC no doubt in a room lit by electric light.

Actually, Edison's DC distribution ideas are still very much in use in applications such as long distance point-to-point transmission and undersea cables.