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  #76  
Old October 10th, 2007, 05:24 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by TuNnL View Post
...and I reiterate, less than 1 percent of those thousands need a $40 million ramp.
Yep. But the YB needs huge facilities on each island, much larger than HSF. They benefit from all the money the state spent to build their piers and improve the area to make it fit for them to do business there.

Why don't we ask YB to stop sailing while they complete an ES?

The airports require hundreds of millions of dollars a year to build, operate and maintain. Why don't we ask all the airlines to stop flying whenever we do a $40 million terminal upgrade or parking garage?

We don't.
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  #77  
Old October 10th, 2007, 05:30 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Doesn’t it bother you that this notion conflicts with separation of powers?

Would you prefer the rules of government be altered to dissolve this separation?
No, it doesn't bother me. The judiciary interprets laws, the legislative branch
makes the laws. If the laws are unclear or have grey areas, the legislative branch should step in.
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  #78  
Old October 10th, 2007, 05:41 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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No, it doesn't bother me. The judiciary interprets laws, the legislative branch
makes the laws. If the laws are unclear or have grey areas, the legislative branch should step in.
I really don't see any conflict in the separation of gov't. Law 343 is a pretty poorly worded law and exemptions have been done in the past so it's not like this is the first time. It's just that there hasn't been as much noise made over it as this time. So it is the legislative branch's role to fix it. The judicial branch merely enforces what the law is at that time. Why else do we have some courts making a decision in one way and courts in the other over similar issues? Because we have some bad laws or sometimes we have new laws that contradict old laws. There should be a fourth branch that focuses on simply cleaning up our law books.
  #79  
Old October 10th, 2007, 06:36 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

Forgive me for not studying this prodigious thread more thoroughly, but I've seen enough coverage of this debacle, this fiasco and this affront to the sensibilities of anyone willing to see both sides of an issue to actually read any more about it. I've been writing about it since day one.

I just want to say that I'm embarassed, and I mean that in the truest sense of the word. If I were John Garibaldi, I'd file a lawsuit against the State DOT, pack my bags and burn in a dumpster the corpse of what was once a fine idea. And I'd never look back. I've always been proud to have been raised in Hawai'i Nei, and I'm as close now to being ashamed of it as ever I have.

Auntie's absolutely right. Shame.
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  #80  
Old October 10th, 2007, 06:52 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

Nicely summarized, Jamie, thank you.
  #81  
Old October 10th, 2007, 07:51 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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If I were John Garibaldi, I'd file a lawsuit against the State DOT
Why? It wasn't the State DOT that was filing injunctions in Maui to stop it from docking there or it's workers jumping in the water on Kauai to prevent the ship from docking there.
  #82  
Old October 10th, 2007, 07:59 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

From the comments I've been reading from the Neighbor Island legislators, most are loathe to consider going into special session just to bail out HSF. It sounds like the Gov. will have to be the one to convene the Special Session because the leadership of both houses of the Legislature don't sound convinced that this is a good idea.

If a Special Session is called though, some interesting alternatives might come out of it: one legislator was thinking about sponsoring a proposal to allow HSF to just be used to help ease the traffic congestion on Oahu while the EA was being done, so that the boat would stay in Hawai'i. A more likely resolution will be to allow the boat to operate, but under some restrictions, like a slower speed and more thorough inspection/cleaning of the undercarriages of cars. This is what I expected Judge Cardoza to order yesterday, but he didn't.

The big question is would HSF agree to travelling at less than 35 kts (like at the 15 kts NOAA recommends)? That would probably add a couple of hours to a trip, which would make being on a boat in the middle of the channels in the middle of winter an agonizingly painful trip for some. Another suggestion that has some merit (seems the major objection, other than the possibility of whale strikes, is the shipping of passenger cars which could transmit invasive species) is to allow HSF to sail but with no cars aboard. Would passengers and HSF be willing to do that?

The first whale has been spotted off Lahaina (ironic that it happened yesterday afternoon), so the rest of the whales should be in the area within days. If HSF is allowed to sail, at the very least, they need to follow NOAA guidelines about the speed they should travel at within the primary humpback whale breeding grounds.

Garibaldi wasn't kidding when he said it was a big disappointment for the people of Hawai'i. He's not too worried about the corporation itself: they have all kinds of alternatives: take the boat out of the state, let it be seized by MARAD, lease it out to the DOD...the major investor in HSF, John Lehman, got what he wanted: trained people and new facilities at his Alabama shipyard (which is next to Austal) to position his companies to build the next generation fleet of Navy cruisers (littoral combat ships).

Miulang
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  #83  
Old October 10th, 2007, 08:03 PM
Leo Lakio Leo Lakio is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by jdub View Post
If I were John Garibaldi, I'd file a lawsuit against the State DOT
Quote:
Originally Posted by helen View Post
Why?
Was it the State DofT that told HSF they would not have to undergo an EA or EIS? If so, that's why.

Though, it doesn't really matter if it was the DofTransportation or the DofEcology or the DofWhateverthefook; if HSF sues, they will be suing the State overall - not just one division.
  #84  
Old October 10th, 2007, 08:20 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
Was it the State DofT that told HSF they would not have to undergo an EA or EIS? If so, that's why.

Though, it doesn't really matter if it was the DofTransportation or the DofEcology or the DofWhateverthefook; if HSF sues, they will be suing the State overall - not just one division.
HSF is not going to sue the State. Neither Lingle nor Superferry want ALL of their doings to brought to the attention of a heretofore well-deceived public. But who knows, neither HSF nor the State executive branch (we'll see about the legislative shortly) has shown much good sense in this affair. They are each fully capable of, and obviously stupid enough to be, cutting their own nuts off... at least where there are such appendages.

Last edited by craig foo; October 10th, 2007 at 08:24 PM.
  #85  
Old October 10th, 2007, 08:29 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
From the comments I've been reading from the Neighbor Island legislators, most are loathe to consider going into special session just to bail out HSF. It sounds like the Gov. will have to be the one to convene the Special Session because the leadership of both houses of the Legislature don't sound convinced that this is a good idea.
The Governor will not convene a special session if there is no concurrence by the House and Senate. However, I do believe the House and Senate will have enough votes to save the Superferry. Governor Lingle will be in debt to the Leg this upcoming legislative session. She's put herself in a very vunerable position and I'm sure the powers that be at the Capitol will take advantage of the situation.
  #86  
Old October 10th, 2007, 08:35 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by craig foo View Post
Neither Lingle nor Superferry want ALL of their doings to brought to the attention of a heretofore well-deceived public.
Craig (and the rest of you) - what do you think are the chances that there would ever be any kind of investigation into how this deal came together, fell apart, whatever? I don't seem to be hearing the voices calling for the State to open up and be more transparent.

I know that State government is a well-entrenched, highly self-protective, "old boy's network" in Hawai`i - doesn't matter if it's Dem or GOP - but I wonder if the newspapers would be the ones to dig the story out? I still remember how shocking it was to read the "Broken Trust" series a few years back - and that was another institution that many thought would be too insular to crack.
  #87  
Old October 10th, 2007, 09:25 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by Keanu View Post
The Governor will not convene a special session if there is no concurrence by the House and Senate. However, I do believe the House and Senate will have enough votes to save the Superferry. Governor Lingle will be in debt to the Leg this upcoming legislative session.
Few people with money are going to babysit their Lexus, Mercedes, or high end vehicle for four or more hours on the Superferry from Kauai to Oahu, or from Oahu to Kauai just so they can use and park their lovely vehicle in a relatively foreign place...then babysit (ie, essentially spend another day above) their personal vehicle on a return trip.

Working class blokes like myself on Kauai are sure not going to be able to take more than a few days off from work to go by way of Superferry to Oahu, or to Maui via Oahu, or to Hawaii Island via Oahu. A round trip with personal vehicle would waste two days just preparing for, and doing transit on the ferry...and that would be if everything went smoothly!

All of the talk about a beautiful view from the ferry while traversing the channel is laughable, even if it were daytime, which it won't be if Superferry crosses the channel from Kauai to Oahu as they planned to do, arriving in Oahu from Kauai around midnight. Some view! Three hours of pitch black and 20 minutes of Honolulu lights...if all goes smoothly, of course....may as well sleep (somewhere?) in one's car until daylight a few hours later. Why keep relatives past midnight or pay for a room for the tailend of a day's worth of occupancy?

The point here is that there is next to zero reason for any socio-economic class of Kauaians to use the ferry, so Superferry would not be generating significant revenue from that angle.

When it reportedly costs the Superferry gangsters at least $650,000 per week when the boat is sitting idle, how much more will it costs when it is operating (r and m, and drinking fuel like a jet plane, but averaging far less than a tenth of a jet's speed) at less than capacity and paying user fees to the State?

For years to come Superferry could avoid paying State and Federal taxes given all of the write-offs they are amassing to date, including no doubt the interests on their loans and bonds. Taxes they don't pay, citizens and businesses have to make up for.

So, from the beginning Superferry has been a corporate/military welfare case, and if allowed to service itself in Hawaii, Superferry can only continue to suck its sustenance from an inexcusably gullible and misled citizenry. And marine Life? What does the majority of Honolulu residents care about that? Apparently nada, nothing.
  #88  
Old October 10th, 2007, 09:45 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
Garibaldi wasn't kidding when he said it was a big disappointment for the people of Hawai'i. Miulang
Only the people of the ISLAND STATE of Hawaii would want to restrict themselves to the airplane monopoly. No alternatives for small businesses, emergencies etc.

Hawaii is run by monkeys and the people who elected them deserve everything they got over the past 50 years.
  #89  
Old October 10th, 2007, 09:48 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
I know that State government is a well-entrenched, highly self-protective, "old boy's network" in Hawai`i - doesn't matter if it's Dem or GOP -
What matters is that it has been an essential one party town for 200 years. Hawaiian Monarchy to Republican Haole to Plantation Asian Democrat. No check, No balance, No problem for lucky you live Hawaii.
  #90  
Old October 10th, 2007, 09:51 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by Keanu View Post
The Governor will not convene a special session if there is no concurrence by the House and Senate. However, I do believe the House and Senate will have enough votes to save the Superferry. Governor Lingle will be in debt to the Leg this upcoming legislative session. She's put herself in a very vunerable position and I'm sure the powers that be at the Capitol will take advantage of the situation.
Lingle is near to being a lame duck if she is not already. She has leaped at the chances to exercise her gubernatorial perogatives for dubious interests. This Superferry poison-pill for Honolulu's outer islands and for her and Kim's Stryker brigade expected infusion of monies and influence in the state's economy,,,,combined with her random drug testing of teachers pay-raise scheme has exposed Lingle's true political character. When she once said that Bush is her idea of a great leader she exposed herself as a true believer of most all of the values that are wrong for the United States. And she has/is attempting to irrevocably stamp such wrongs on Hawaii...but to her of course, they are not wrongs, they are rights: such as U.S. corporation rights, U.S. military rights, U.S. federal rights, U.S. right-wing rights.

Why should our State Democratic controlled legislature give a damn about Lingle and her wishes. She has proven herself to be a pawn of interests contrary to the well-being of too many of us.
  #91  
Old October 10th, 2007, 09:57 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by craig foo View Post
So, from the beginning Superferry has been a corporate/military welfare case, and if allowed to service itself in Hawaii,
Wow, a "Working class bloke" from Kauai knows everything about the financial future of this huge business venture. You got it all figured out Craig.

So if you are moah smat then all the accountants and investors (who still could lose millions regardless of any govt. breaks), then just let them run their course like Seaflight and go out of business.

I see the "protestors" in this fight like angry (financially struggling) juveniles (immature) who are throwing a tantrum and not sharing their toys, not because they care about the sanctity of their toys but because they are little and weak and frustrated and angry and so want to take that out on someone bigger (superferry)
  #92  
Old October 10th, 2007, 10:01 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
...what ... are the chances that there would ever be any kind of investigation into how this deal came together, fell apart, whatever?
Unless there is a lawsuit or a special session of the legislture, I doubt there will be an investigation. Sewage under the bridge...who's going to chase it?

Lingle, the Maui/Kauai AOL leftovers and their Supernefarious gangsters should be hoping it all blows over as soon as possible and we all get back to the pre-Superferry days of relative lawfulness and forgiveness. Should they want a legislative special session or lawsuits, then perhaps we may see some investigative revelations.
  #93  
Old October 10th, 2007, 10:03 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by helen View Post
Why? It wasn't the State DOT that was filing injunctions in Maui to stop it from docking there or it's workers jumping in the water on Kauai to prevent the ship from docking there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
Was it the State DofT that told HSF they would not have to undergo an EA or EIS? If so, that's why.
Yep. My understanding is that it was the St DOT that inked HISF into operation.
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  #94  
Old October 10th, 2007, 10:03 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Why should our State Democratic controlled legislature give a damn about Lingle and her wishes. She has proven herself to be a pawn of interests contrary to the well-being of too many of us.
You go girlfriend. Ass right. We need the good ole days when the Plantation Asians controlled the House, the Senate and the Governor. The good old days when nevah have disagreements in politics cuz everybody was on the same team. The good ole days when Hawaii was being bulldozed over while making Plantation Asians rich. The good ole days when HGEA was almost all Japanese. The good ole dayz that gave state workers the best benefits in the entire USA. The good ole days when most Hawaiians were still too ignorant to even know they been ripped off and so joined the Plantation Asians in the Haole Boogieman parade. The good ole days when stuff got done by who you know, not what you know. Nevah have red tape cuz my couzins bruddahs sistah work in the permit office.

Ahhhh, doze were da dayz.
  #95  
Old October 10th, 2007, 10:17 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by kamuelakea View Post
You go girlfriend. Ass right. We need the good ole days when the Plantation Asians controlled the House, the Senate and the Governor. The good old days when nevah have disagreements in politics cuz everybody was on the same team. The good ole days when Hawaii was being bulldozed over while making Plantation Asians rich. The good ole days when HGEA was almost all Japanese. The good ole dayz that gave state workers the best benefits in the entire USA. The good ole days when most Hawaiians were still too ignorant to even know they been ripped off and so joined the Plantation Asians in the Haole Boogieman parade. The good ole days when stuff got done by who you know, not what you know. Nevah have red tape cuz my couzins bruddahs sistah work in the permit office.

Ahhhh, doze were da dayz.
Yeah, doze were da dayz when da politicians could trust that none of their constituents would meddle in their behind the scenes deals. Doze were da dayz when a politician would say, "Trust me" and by god, people trusted him!

Man, am I glad doze days are gone!

Miulang
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  #96  
Old October 10th, 2007, 10:24 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by craig foo View Post
Why should our State Democratic controlled legislature give a damn about Lingle and her wishes.

There is always a give and take in government, Craig. The powers that be in the Legislature will assure the governor that they have the votes to enact legislation, in a special session, that can save the Superferry BUT there will be a price for the governor to pay. There are definite legslative initiatives that the governor will be expected to support during the next legislative session... you see, I scratch your back, you scratch mine. Politics at its finest.

I'm on your side Craig but those that oppose the Superferry (You and I) will be on the losing team for this battle.
  #97  
Old October 10th, 2007, 10:34 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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There is always a give and take in government, Craig. The powers that be in the Legislature will assure the governor that they have the votes to enact legislation, in a special session, that can save the Superferry BUT there will be a price for the governor to pay. There are definite legslative initiatives that the governor will be expected to support during the next legislative session... you see, I scratch your back, you scratch mine. Politics at its finest.

I'm on your side Craig but those that oppose the Superferry (You and I) will be on the losing team for this battle.
Payback's a bitch, isn't it? Like selling your soul to the Devil. Besides the HSF question, what are some of the thorny issues that will face the Legislature next session that the Democratically controlled Legislature could get the Governor to cave in to?

I think the only way the Neighbor Island legislators (in the Senate, anyway) would agree to a special session is if some restrictions on the ferry's operation are also agreed to. And I'm not sure HSF is willing to make any compromises. From the very beginning with their management, it's always been "it's our way or no way at all". I suppose the willingness of Garibaldi to make concessions in order to run the ferry will be proof of the company's commitment to run a viable operation in Hawai'i. If he still pulls out of the deal after the Legislature has tried to save the company, who will look worse? The Legislature, the Governor, or HSF?

Doesn't HSF have to start from scratch again with another application to the PUC for a certificate of conveyance, because when the operating agreement between the DOT was voided yesterday, didn't that also void the PUC license too? And this is where it starts getting tricky: In order for the PUC to grant a license, it requires that all federal and state environmental rules are adhered to. Since the HSC already determined in Aug. that the DOT was at fault for allowing HSF to proceed without a proactive EA, wouldn't that automatically make HSF fall under HRS343 all over again? And since the HSC determined that the exemption the DOT used last time was faulty, then a proactive EA is required for approval of the license, right?

Miulang
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Last edited by Miulang; October 10th, 2007 at 10:40 PM.
  #98  
Old October 10th, 2007, 10:41 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by craig foo View Post
All of the talk about a beautiful view from the ferry while traversing the channel is laughable, even if it were daytime, which it won't be if Superferry crosses the channel from Kauai to Oahu as they planned to do, arriving in Oahu from Kauai around midnight. Some view! Three hours of pitch black and 20 minutes of Honolulu lights...if all goes smoothly, of course....may as well sleep (somewhere?) in one's car until daylight a few hours later. Why keep relatives past midnight or pay for a room for the tailend of a day's worth of occupancy?
This much is true, it would appear that all the talk about scenic views seems to be for the Oahu to Maui route and it's return trip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keanu View Post
I'm on your side Craig but those that oppose the Superferry (You and I) will be on the losing team for this battle.
Are you opposed to it because of the concept of service it offers is flawed or because of how everything was done to get the service here?
  #99  
Old October 10th, 2007, 11:04 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by zztype View Post
Yep. But the YB needs huge facilities on each island, much larger than HSF. They benefit from all the money the state spent to build their piers and improve the area to make it fit for them to do business there.

Why don't we ask YB to stop sailing while they complete an ES?

The airports require hundreds of millions of dollars a year to build, operate and maintain. Why don't we ask all the airlines to stop flying whenever we do a $40 million terminal upgrade or parking garage?

We don't.
Blaine: YB and the airport have both had EA/EIS done for some projects and not for others. This has already been shown in news stories. Both YB and the county airports were in service well before 1973 when the first HEPA laws were enacted. Since 1973, both entities have had EAs done on some improvements and not on others. The ones that didn't get the EAs were exempted by the DOT through their set of exemptions (each department of the State has a list of exemptions they can use). DOT tried to sneak HSF through using the same exemption, but the HSC said that that judgment was faulty because the DOT did not take into account what the potential secondary impacts of a minor modification to Kahului Harbor would be.

Judge Cardoza muddied the waters with his first ruling in 2005 when he affirmed the DOT's decision to exempt HSF from a proactive EA because Judge Cardoza was doing what the DOT did: he was only looking at who would be impacted by the minor modifications in Kahului Harbor alone, so he threw out the lawsuit brought by the Sierra Club and Maui Tomorrow, saying that they were not directly impacted by what happened in Kahului Harbor so they could not sue. Isaac Hall immediately filed an appeal with the HSC, but it took 2 years to finally make it to the court docket. The HSC in August said according to the statutes, any person or entity who believed they would suffer some impact could file a lawsuit. And that's where the trouble started.

I think HSF took a big gamble and lost. In 2005, when the first case was heard, they should have realized that they would need to do an EA eventually, and if they had begun that process at that time, they would have had it completed way before the ferry started service and none of this would have happened. They opted to save the cost of doing an EA (around $1 million, which is what the State is paying Belt Collins to do it now) for the more than $1 million it has probably cost them in lawyers' fees and loss of revenue with the boat tied up. When you undertake a project as costly as this one, why would you want to try to cut corners just to save a few bucks?

Miulang
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  #100  
Old October 10th, 2007, 11:09 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
Payback's a bitch, isn't it? Like selling your soul to the Devil. Besides the HSF question, what are some of the thorny issues that will face the Legislature next session that the Democratically controlled Legislature could get the Governor to cave in to?
No comment, next question!

I've already said too much.

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Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
I think the only way the Neighbor Island legislators (in the Senate, anyway) would agree to a special session is if some restrictions on the ferry's operation are also agreed to.
I think it's a forgone conslusion that most of the Neighbor Island legislators (outside of the Big Island) will oppose a special session and I think some of the Niehgbor Island reps will have some support from Oahu but Majority rules. When leadership makes a request, most of the troops fall in line.

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Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
From the very beginning with their management, it's always been "it's our way or no way at all". I suppose the willingness of Garibaldi to make concessions in order to run the ferry will be proof of the company's commitment to run a viable operation in Hawai'i. If he still pulls out of the deal after the Legislature has tried to save the company, who will look worse? The Legislature, the Governor, or HSF?

Doesn't HSF have to start from scratch again with another application to the PUC for a certificate of conveyance, because when the operating agreement between the DOT was voided yesterday, didn't that also void the PUC license too? And this is where it starts getting tricky: In order for the PUC to grant a license, it requires that all federal and state environmental rules are adhered to. Since the HSC already determined in Aug. that the DOT was at fault for allowing HSF to proceed without a proactive EA, wouldn't that automatically make HSF fall under HRS343 all over again? And since the HSC determined that the exemption the DOT used last time was faulty, then a proactive EA is required for approval of the license, right?

Miulang
Not if the Leg amends the statute. An amended statute that allows the Superferry to operate without the EA would render the Judge's decision irrelevent.
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