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  #51  
Old February 8th, 2007, 02:31 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

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Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
As for canoe clubs, that's great but honestly, is it really a great idea to mix pleasure/recreation/sport watercrafts with commercial/industrial watercrafts? Would the time and money wasted on this token fight be put to better use in exploring and developing a separate facility for the canoe clubs? Ultimately, it's a breakwater that is what the canoe clubs really need.
There ARE no other harbors on Maui suitable for canoes, and that's the problem. Plus, the canoes have been using Kahului harbor for generations. Squatter's rights.

Miulang
  #52  
Old February 8th, 2007, 02:56 PM
joshuatree joshuatree is offline
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

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Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
There ARE no other harbors on Maui suitable for canoes, and that's the problem. Plus, the canoes have been using Kahului harbor for generations. Squatter's rights.

Miulang
Sorry but I don't buy that. Kahului harbor was created by building two break waters, one from the left, one from the right. If the area occupied by the canoe clubs were available to commercial shipping, the harbor capacity would double instantaneously. If you build another, smaller break water, starting from near the middle of the existing left breakwater and have it run parallel with Kahului Beach Road, that will create a nice separate facility for the canoe club. Maybe instead of fighting SF, perhaps you can get them to chip in on that new breakwater. It's hard to sympathesize when the main argument is that SF will disrupt the flow of "essential goods" to the people of Maui but it's ok for canoe clubs to squatter harbor space that could be used for the flow of "essential goods".
  #53  
Old February 8th, 2007, 06:37 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

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Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
Sorry but I don't buy that. Kahului harbor was created by building two break waters, one from the left, one from the right. If the area occupied by the canoe clubs were available to commercial shipping, the harbor capacity would double instantaneously. If you build another, smaller break water, starting from near the middle of the existing left breakwater and have it run parallel with Kahului Beach Road, that will create a nice separate facility for the canoe club. Maybe instead of fighting SF, perhaps you can get them to chip in on that new breakwater. It's hard to sympathesize when the main argument is that SF will disrupt the flow of "essential goods" to the people of Maui but it's ok for canoe clubs to squatter harbor space that could be used for the flow of "essential goods".
YB and the canoe clubs have co-existed peacefully since at least the 1960s. Even the cruise ships aren't much concern because they berth on the other side of the harbor. Where Superferry will dock is right next to the part of the harbor where the canoe clubs practice. You can't build another breakwater on the outer part of the harbor (towards Waihee). It's too shallow and the state would have to spend millions to dredge it. They might be able to pull something together on the north end (by Kanaha Beach Park) but I seriously doubt the State would want to spend that money just for the canoe clubs.

I still think it would be better for Superferry to dock at Ma'alaea because the impact to traffic would be greatly reduced. There already is a harbor there (that's where the snorkle boats to Molokini depart from) and it would have been better to put it there also because of its more central location (it would be about equidistant to Lahaina, Kihei and Central Maui), and it would leave the current occupants and configuration of the harbor intact..

Miulang

P.S. One other thing: if Superferry was allowed to dock on the side of the harbor where the canoe clubs practice, the 2 hotels that are right next to that area on the beach (Maui Palms and Maui Beach) would probably sue the state.

Last edited by Miulang; February 8th, 2007 at 07:01 PM.
  #54  
Old February 8th, 2007, 06:49 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

As promised, the Neighbor Island legislators are pulling out whatever they think they can to stall Superferry. Now the Senate is pondering SB 1276 which is about whether SF travelling at the speed NOAA said was safe (35 knots) and would allow humpback whales to be safe.

Notsofast, says Maui Sen. Shan Tsutsui. According to experts at the Pacific Whale Foundation (also based on Maui), if SF is allowed to travel that fast, it would only have 2.9 seconds to stop once a whale is sighted in its path! Stopping on a dime will not be one of the safety features of Superferry. And if they have to slow down to 12 or 13 knots (as recommended) it would take FOREVER to get between islands.

Quote:
English’s Transportation and International Affairs Committee, and the Energy and Environment Committee chaired by Oahu Sen. Ron Menor, recessed the joint meeting on Senate Bill 1276 to continue the sessions on Kauai and Maui on Saturday, the senators said.

Sen. Gary Hooser of Kauai said he believes there is strong support in the Senate for the bill that would bar the Superferry from operating until an environmental impact statement on the ferry operations is accepted.

“There is support, and it’s important that we hold these hearings on the Neighbor Islands for the committee to have an opportunity, and for members who live in Honolulu, to be able to talk face-to-face to the people who live in our districts,” he said.

The joint committee will convene at 10 a.m. on Saturday at the Kauai County Council Chambers and at 5 p.m. in the Baldwin High School multipurpose room.
On a somewhat related note, the Lanai City-->Lahaina Harbor ferry may have collided with a humpback yesterday. And that ferry is passenger only, no cars allowed.

Miulang

Last edited by Miulang; February 8th, 2007 at 07:45 PM.
  #55  
Old February 8th, 2007, 09:29 PM
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LikaNui LikaNui is offline
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

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Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
Notsofast, says Maui Sen. Shan Tsutsui. According to experts at the Pacific Whale Foundation (also based on Maui), if SF is allowed to travel that fast, it would only have 2.9 seconds to stop once a whale is sighted in its path! Stopping on a dime will not be one of the safety features of Superferry. And if they have to slow down to 12 or 13 knots (as recommended) it would take FOREVER to get between islands.
SuperFerry has done a massive amount of research (with the various whale foundations and researchers) to determine the most common areas and lanes the whales use, and SuperFerry has stated publicly (many many times) that they will re-route during the whale season to avoid those areas.
What do the whiners have to say about that?
Oh yeah. The whiners conveniently forget to mention that.
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  #56  
Old February 8th, 2007, 10:07 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

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Originally Posted by LikaNui View Post
SuperFerry has done a massive amount of research (with the various whale foundations and researchers) to determine the most common areas and lanes the whales use, and SuperFerry has stated publicly (many many times) that they will re-route during the whale season to avoid those areas.
What do the whiners have to say about that?
Oh yeah. The whiners conveniently forget to mention that.
Well, that would pretty much preclude them plying the waters between the Big Island, Molokai, Lanai and Maui (see Sanctuary map), then, because that's where the humpbacks like to play. SF would have to go out of their way between early Dec. and Feb. when the whales are at their most plentiful in Hawai'i waters. (I don't think the whales travel on underwater freeways, so it's doubtful that scientists know where they roam unless they tag each and every whale to monitor radio signals).I'm sure they wouldn't prohibit SF from travelling in those waters during those times, only that they can't go 35 knots. At 13 knots per hour...lessee...how many more hours would that add to a trip from Honolulu to Maui? If the scheduled travel time according to the schedule is 4 hours (@35 knots), then a trip would take about 12 hours instead; that's long enough for a nice little snooze so you'd be bright eyed and bushy tailed when you got to Kahului.

Miulang

Last edited by Miulang; February 8th, 2007 at 10:27 PM.
  #57  
Old February 9th, 2007, 12:34 AM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

I dug a little deeper into the humpback whale controversy and came across some very interesting things. First of all, the "team of experts" that the Superferry says it consulted with, primarily the the Hawaiian Islands National Humpback Whale Sanctuary Advisory Council (part of the HINHWMNS) is chaired by none other than one Terry O'Halloran, a principal in the Hawai'i Superferry (could it be a "slight" conflict of interest?).

Second, at their last meeting on May 18, 2006, O'Halloran was absent, but Dr. Lee Tepley showed a documentary about the impact on humpback whales and other marine creatures of Superferry and the speeds at which it will be travelling.

In their original plans, Superferry promised to use sonar to detect whale proximity. According to Dr. Tepley, sonar cannot detect whales close to the surface, and if it could use sonar, it would be at levels which would probably hurt marine mammals (the same issue PacRim is facing with its naval testing of sonar). So the Superferry, when it arrives, will not be equipped with sonar.

One other argument that Superferry has used is that cruise ships can go as fast as 25 knots in between the islands. Dr. Tepley tracked the Pride of Aloha on one circuit and discovered it averaged a little more than 13 knots, which he considers a speed less likely to kill whales.

You can believe Superferry, or you can go with an open mind to Dr. Tepley's website and view the 2 videos that talk about what his concerns are. The second one was produced within the last month or so (around the time Austal launched the Superferry in Alabama). I believe this is the video that legislators will be seeing when they debate the value of requiring an EIS for Superferry over the coming week. It probably will open a few peoples' eyes. The first video (if you choose to watch the long version) is about 27 minutes and the second one is about 12 minutes long.

The picture I'm getting now from the "antis", is not that they don't want Superferry at all, but they don't think enough planning has been done to mitigate potential environmental issues. And as a compromise, if Superferry was restricted to travelling at an average speed of 13 knots (like the cruise ships) would people want to spend 12 hours on a boat that promised to get them to their destination in 4 hours?

Miulang

Last edited by Miulang; February 9th, 2007 at 12:53 AM.
  #58  
Old February 9th, 2007, 06:08 PM
joshuatree joshuatree is offline
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

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Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
YB and the canoe clubs have co-existed peacefully since at least the 1960s. Even the cruise ships aren't much concern because they berth on the other side of the harbor. Where Superferry will dock is right next to the part of the harbor where the canoe clubs practice. You can't build another breakwater on the outer part of the harbor (towards Waihee). It's too shallow and the state would have to spend millions to dredge it. They might be able to pull something together on the north end (by Kanaha Beach Park) but I seriously doubt the State would want to spend that money just for the canoe clubs.

I still think it would be better for Superferry to dock at Ma'alaea because the impact to traffic would be greatly reduced. There already is a harbor there (that's where the snorkle boats to Molokini depart from) and it would have been better to put it there also because of its more central location (it would be about equidistant to Lahaina, Kihei and Central Maui), and it would leave the current occupants and configuration of the harbor intact..

Miulang

P.S. One other thing: if Superferry was allowed to dock on the side of the harbor where the canoe clubs practice, the 2 hotels that are right next to that area on the beach (Maui Palms and Maui Beach) would probably sue the state.
Peaceful coexistence is great but it's not the 60s anymore. Even though not on the scale of Oahu, Maui has grown in every way. I'm sure even if HSF isn't going to be there, there will be a point in time when more harbor space will be needed by commercial ships.

Why can't you build another breakwater on the outer side? Why would you need to dredge shallow waters for a canoe club? You only need to build a breakwater to block waves that would make it rough for canoes. The spot currently occupied by the canoe club can then be freed up for commercial ships. Kahului harbor already has dredging done. In fact, shallow waters would make building another breakwater just for the canoes even easier.

Ma'alaea would actually seem to be a bad choice. That side of the island is where most of the whales congregate. Why else would so many whale sighting tours hang out in that area?

As for hotels suing the state? Why? What unholy pact has the state entered with the hotels that the state can't build or change anything around the hotels?

Speed of ships. I don't believe HSF is gonna be cruising at 35 knots when entering coastal waters. It would primarily be out in the open between the islands. Besides, at a certain point, what else is left to do to avoid whale strikes? I guess simply not having HSF service, that's the message I'm getting from the antis.
  #59  
Old February 9th, 2007, 06:28 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

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Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
Speed of ships. I don't believe HSF is gonna be cruising at 35 knots when entering coastal waters. It would primarily be out in the open between the islands. Besides, at a certain point, what else is left to do to avoid whale strikes? I guess simply not having HSF service, that's the message I'm getting from the antis.
If SF doesn't travel at average speeds of 35 knots+, they won't be able to meet their timetables as published. Please go to Dr. Tepeley's website and look at those videos, and then come back and tell me you're not convinced that high speeds are dangerous to whales, dolphins, honu and other protected species.

The antis are NOT saying no Superferry (at least not the ones who object on the grounds of whale strikes anyway). If SF would travel at 13 knots (the average speed of the Pride of Aloha when it travels between the islands), it would be far less risky. But how many people would want to spend 12 hours on that boat when the advertised transit time was 4 hours?

According to this Maui News story, there are more whales being spotted in the Marine Sanctuary. More whales means more possibilities of collisions. If you look at the videos, you will see what other Austal high speed ferries that are very similar to Superferry (the ones in the Canary Islands) have done to decimate the pods of whales swimming offshore there. They say that they know the numbers of whales killed or injured there has increased exponentially since those ferries went into service in 1999.

Cruising at 13 knots, according to Dr. Tepley, would allow the whales to be able to avoid collisions with the boat, or if they were struck, the blow would not be as severe as one coming from a 2-pontooned boat travelling at 35 knots. I don't think you have to be a scientific genius to see that that is the truth. If smaller boats today travelling at slower speeds can strike whales, then what would much larger boats travelling much faster do? And when you're on a boat as big and hefty as the Superferry, you probably wouldn't even know when you hit a whale. So if you don't feel it, then you can't know it's happening, and therefore it's OK, right?

As for a new breakwater at Kahului Harbor, to be on the Waihee side, you'd need TWO more walls (makai and on the Waihee side) because it's so rough.

Miulang

Last edited by Miulang; February 9th, 2007 at 06:58 PM.
  #60  
Old February 9th, 2007, 10:04 PM
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LikaNui LikaNui is offline
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

JoshiaTree is correct in most (maybe even all) things, including saying that SuperFerry will only run at high speeds in deep interisland waters and will slow down drastically in the shallower near-shore waters where the whales, dolphin and honu congregate.
SuperFerry also claims that their in-house policies are stricter than existing federal regulations; that they will indeed change their routes during whale season; and that during whale season they will double the number of crew on the bridge, with two crew doing nothing BUT watching for whales using several types of high-tech equipment, including motion-stabilizing and night-vision binoculars.
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  #61  
Old February 9th, 2007, 10:20 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

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Originally Posted by LikaNui View Post
JoshiaTree is correct in most (maybe even all) things, including saying that SuperFerry will only run at high speeds in deep interisland waters and will slow down drastically in the shallower near-shore waters where the whales, dolphin and honu congregate.
SuperFerry also claims that their in-house policies are stricter than existing federal regulations; that they will indeed change their routes during whale season; and that during whale season they will double the number of crew on the bridge, with two crew doing nothing BUT watching for whales using several types of high-tech equipment, including motion-stabilizing and night-vision binoculars.
Lika: Have you watched the Tepley videos yet? If not, please do! If you look at the proposed route of Superferry on its website, it would go between Lanai and Molokai to get to Kahului ( basically the same route that the interisland planes take.) Unfortunately, where the whales are is exactly in that area. So Superferry would have to go around the northern part of Moloka'i in order to avoid the whales. Looking at this NOAA map (the pink areas are known whale habitats), that route would take a whole lot longer. So I think it would be 6 of 1, a half dozen of the other: either Superferry cuts its speed down to 12 or 13 knots (or less) in the channel between Molokai and Lanai ---which is a good percentage of the trip--- or it goes a northern route around Moloka'i; either way, the transit time will be longer than what Superferry proposes.

Miulang

P.S. 35 knots is about 42 mph (I think). Whales have this nasty habit of breaching whereever they feel like it. Boats at any speed have issues with stopping immediately. What is the reaction time of a really awake human being? 2 seconds? 5 seconds to realize what they see (after staring at open ocean for 2 hours). If we have problems stopping a 2,000 lb car going 45 mph, how long would it take for a boat weighing many more times than a car going the same speed (and accounting for the inertia that you encounter in water) to come to a complete stop? Somehow, I don't see the Superferry captain throwing the engines into full reverse (I bet he would just run over the whale instead). And where you say "Superferry claims..." isn't that the same kind of nonscience you claim that the antis are using? Why do you take Superferry's word for everything? Why not look at some of the scientific reasoning and then make up your mind? Oh yeah. And whale season is between November and May, so more than half the year, Superferry would be running behind schedule.

Last edited by Miulang; February 9th, 2007 at 11:00 PM.
  #62  
Old February 10th, 2007, 02:31 AM
Composite 2992 Composite 2992 is offline
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

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Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
L35 knots is about 42 mph (I think). Whales have this nasty habit of breaching whereever they feel like it. Boats at any speed have issues with stopping immediately. What is the reaction time of a really awake human being? 2 seconds? 5 seconds to realize what they see (after staring at open ocean for 2 hours). If we have problems stopping a 2,000 lb car going 45 mph, how long would it take for a boat weighing many more times than a car going the same speed (and accounting for the inertia that you encounter in water) to come to a complete stop?
35 Kts is 40.2 MPH.

There's no way to effectively stop a vessel that large or massive in a reasonable amount of time. When dealing with an impending collision, stopping is seldom any mariner's first option. The first option would generally be steering clear of an obstruction. And, depending on how the propulsion units work in concert with the steering gear, reducing power might actually make a vessel LESS maneuverable.

Also, inertia is the same, whether in air or water. What counts is mass and velocity. And it's a lot of mass and a lot of velocity. Water, in fact, would tend to slow vessels a lot more when the power is chopped, due to the drag from the wetted surface, compared to a vehicle on wheels. Still, a ship is not likely to stop or slow in time to avoid impact.

Another option is forward-looking sonar made by companies like Interphase. There are commercially available units for recreational boating that can "see" 1000 feet ahead. At 59 feet per second, that gives you 16 seconds of warning. Enough time to slow down and steer to a safe course.
  #63  
Old February 10th, 2007, 12:45 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

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Originally Posted by Composite 2992 View Post
Another option is forward-looking sonar made by companies like Interphase. There are commercially available units for recreational boating that can "see" 1000 feet ahead. At 59 feet per second, that gives you 16 seconds of warning. Enough time to slow down and steer to a safe course.
Unfortunately, Superferry will not come equipped with ANY sonar. Does sonar work as well on close-to-the-surface objects, too? Mama whales and their calves apparently have to stay pretty close to the surface (even in deep water) because the calves can't hold their breaths very long; Mama will generally swim directly below the baby. Dr. Tepley (see video) said that a twin-hulled boat like Superferry travelling at 35 knots would only have 2.9 seconds to avoid collision. Is that possible? Would anyone's reaction time be that quick?

As for Superferry saying they will use visual aids (like state of the art binoculars) and spotters to detect whale proximity, I think that works better on smooth water; anybody who's flown over the channel between Molokai and Lanai knows that the water is always pretty choppy, so it would be harder to differentiate between a wave and a whale (and I bet it's even harder when you're closer to the surface of the ocean than when you're flying above it at 1,000 feet). Anybody who's tried staring at the ocean on a bright day knows that your eyes get tired within minutes, not hours, so the spotters would have to take turns and switch off every few minutes in order to maintain visual acuity.

Miulang

Last edited by Miulang; February 10th, 2007 at 12:58 PM.
  #64  
Old February 10th, 2007, 04:40 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

Oh man, this could get ugly: all the facts about the "shelving" of DOT Director Rod Haraga for the last 18 months of his tenure may impact any decisions that the State was part of regarding the Superferry EIS AND the negotiations between the State and go! And Pacific Wings (the ones who uncovered this little problem) now wants to join the Superferry EIS suit!

Quote:
During the last two years, the Transportation Department has had its usual share of controversies and sensitive issues. On Maui, these included the Superferry EIS, unhappiness about the time it has taken to build a Lahaina bypass and extensive changes at Kahului Airport.

But there was nothing unusually contentious going on – at least in public – in the months before Lingle told Haraga in August 2005 that his deputies would no longer report to him.

“Awana and Lingle sidelined the DOT director so they could run things themselves,” Kahlstorf contends.

“This could invalidate decisions made by Hawaii DOT during the time the department was being illegally run,” Kahlstorf told Morita, including the decision that an EIS was not required for Hawaii Superferry.

Although it was not publicly known that Lingle had removed Haraga from operational decisions in 2005, House Transportation Committee Chairman Souki knew.

He said Wednesday that “of course” it bothered him, but he did not see what the Legislature could do about it.

“I was aware last year that (Haraga’s) responsibilities were taken away from him. I didn’t know why.”

Souki said he knew that “the power was going to (Haraga’s) respective deputies, he was left only with public relations.”
Nobody in Gov. Lingle's office (including Haraga) wants to discuss why he was kept on salary for 18 months with only contract signing duties (@ an annual salary of $102,000) and why underlings in the department (like Brian Sekiguchi, who helped negotiate the terms for Superferry and go!) had the kind of power they apparently had, and instead of reporting to Haraga, appear to have reported directly to the Gov.'s office. According to the State Constitution, all department heads have complete line responsibility for their staff.

And Barry Fukunaga, the new DOT Director nominee, says that the practice of DOT staff reporting directly to the Gov's office has now been changed. Is that an admission that the Gov. was involved in some shenanigans?

Miulang
  #65  
Old February 10th, 2007, 05:15 PM
joshuatree joshuatree is offline
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

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Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
If SF doesn't travel at average speeds of 35 knots+, they won't be able to meet their timetables as published. Please go to Dr. Tepeley's website and look at those videos, and then come back and tell me you're not convinced that high speeds are dangerous to whales, dolphins, honu and other protected species.

The antis are NOT saying no Superferry (at least not the ones who object on the grounds of whale strikes anyway). If SF would travel at 13 knots (the average speed of the Pride of Aloha when it travels between the islands), it would be far less risky. But how many people would want to spend 12 hours on that boat when the advertised transit time was 4 hours?

According to this Maui News story, there are more whales being spotted in the Marine Sanctuary. More whales means more possibilities of collisions. If you look at the videos, you will see what other Austal high speed ferries that are very similar to Superferry (the ones in the Canary Islands) have done to decimate the pods of whales swimming offshore there. They say that they know the numbers of whales killed or injured there has increased exponentially since those ferries went into service in 1999.

Cruising at 13 knots, according to Dr. Tepley, would allow the whales to be able to avoid collisions with the boat, or if they were struck, the blow would not be as severe as one coming from a 2-pontooned boat travelling at 35 knots. I don't think you have to be a scientific genius to see that that is the truth. If smaller boats today travelling at slower speeds can strike whales, then what would much larger boats travelling much faster do? And when you're on a boat as big and hefty as the Superferry, you probably wouldn't even know when you hit a whale. So if you don't feel it, then you can't know it's happening, and therefore it's OK, right?

As for a new breakwater at Kahului Harbor, to be on the Waihee side, you'd need TWO more walls (makai and on the Waihee side) because it's so rough.

Miulang

1 knot = 1.150779 MPH
1 knot = 1 nautical mile
1 nautical mile = 1.150779 statue mile

Distance between Honolulu and Kahului is 93 miles. I will add 20 more miles just to factor in the ship does not go in a straight line.

So 113 miles / 1.150779 statue mile = 98.194 nautical miles.
Then 98.194 nautical miles / 35 knots = 2.8 hours travel time.

That still leaves 0.2 hour or 12 minutes extra since HSF's published travel time is 3 hours. This tells me HSF is not gonna be gunning at 35 knots from the moment they weigh anchor in Honolulu Harbor till the time they drop anchor in Kahului Harbor.

I am not challenging the concept of whale strikes but I am calling the antis alarm as chicken little with the sky is falling. If the antis answer is to travel at 13 knots, the antis are basically saying no HSF without saying no HSF. Read in between the lines. Sonar is not used because there's all this talk of sonar hurting whales. Kinda unfair to rub that in at HSF, isn't it?

There's a lot of talk of what HSF's speed will do to a whale but why not also look at what HSF has compared to other ships that routinely have whale strikes? No propellors, all waterjets. Shallow draft because of the catamaran design as opposed to deep draft like Pride of Aloha. Also, waterjets can be instaneously put in reverse because the engines keep running but the waterjet nozzles can be thrown into reverse. If you check out HSF's site, they intend not to completely reverse the boat upon a whale sighting but rather to probably throw one set of jets in one hull in reverse with the other forward to make a sharp turn. As someone previously stated, sometimes throwing a ship in complete reverse is not very effective (Titanic).

http://www.rolls-royce.com/marine/pr...s/s_series.jsp

Also, all these other whale strikes, do these boats have the same number of spotters and procedures as HSF? Is it more? Is it less? We need to look at that to fairly assess HSF's threat to whales. The only realistic solution in the immediate future is perhaps to have HSF's path take a northern route north of Molokai. Then it should avoid all the cute pink areas on NOAA's map. But how much time will be added to the trip? What about extra fuel burn? I like to hear how the antis propose to solve this problem since you say they are not against HSF's existence.

I don't see why you need more than one breakwater running parallel to Kahului Beach Rd. Maybe we might be looking at different locations? I'm talking about building a new breakwater northwest of Kahului Harbor, right from the existing left breakwater.
  #66  
Old February 10th, 2007, 05:24 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

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Originally Posted by Composite 2992 View Post
As for collisions with whales, what is anyone doing to make sure the Navy's own fast ships, as well as all the privately owned boats and vessels, aren't going to collide with marine mammals? Why just single out the Superferry which will make a single run to each island per day when all these other vessels can operate without the same concerns?

I'm not saying it shouldn't be done. But if the Superferry has to operate with a high level of care, then so should everyone else.
Very few of the other commercial and private boats has the capability of going 35 knots. Plus, if a "cigarette" boat (which can go faster than that) DID collide with a whale, the whale would probably win because it would be far larger than the boat.

Some people are trying to get the "speed limit" on larger boats (including cruise ships and ferries) changed to a maximum of 12-14 knots within the marine sanctuary areas. In fact, one of the people who wants NOAA and the State to change the rules is the operator of the Moloka'i ferry. The cruise ships wouldn't have any problems complying, because even though they are rated to travel much faster, they appear to only average about 13 knots now. And you know the Navy is above any laws the State might impose on everybody else .

The twin-hulled Superferry will have twice the likelihood of striking whales, honu and other protected marine animals by virtue of its configuration, nevermind the speeds at which it could cruise.

Miulang
  #67  
Old February 10th, 2007, 05:40 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
1 knot = 1.150779 MPH
1 knot = 1 nautical mile
1 nautical mile = 1.150779 statue mile

Distance between Honolulu and Kahului is 93 miles. I will add 20 more miles just to factor in the ship does not go in a straight line.

So 113 miles / 1.150779 statue mile = 98.194 nautical miles.
Then 98.194 nautical miles / 35 knots = 2.8 hours travel time.

That still leaves 0.2 hour or 12 minutes extra since HSF's published travel time is 3 hours. This tells me HSF is not gonna be gunning at 35 knots from the moment they weigh anchor in Honolulu Harbor till the time they drop anchor in Kahului Harbor.

I am not challenging the concept of whale strikes but I am calling the antis alarm as chicken little with the sky is falling. If the antis answer is to travel at 13 knots, the antis are basically saying no HSF without saying no HSF. Read in between the lines. Sonar is not used because there's all this talk of sonar hurting whales. Kinda unfair to rub that in at HSF, isn't it?

There's a lot of talk of what HSF's speed will do to a whale but why not also look at what HSF has compared to other ships that routinely have whale strikes? No propellors, all waterjets. Shallow draft because of the catamaran design as opposed to deep draft like Pride of Aloha. Also, waterjets can be instaneously put in reverse because the engines keep running but the waterjet nozzles can be thrown into reverse. If you check out HSF's site, they intend not to completely reverse the boat upon a whale sighting but rather to probably throw one set of jets in one hull in reverse with the other forward to make a sharp turn. As someone previously stated, sometimes throwing a ship in complete reverse is not very effective (Titanic).

http://www.rolls-royce.com/marine/pr...s/s_series.jsp

Also, all these other whale strikes, do these boats have the same number of spotters and procedures as HSF? Is it more? Is it less? We need to look at that to fairly assess HSF's threat to whales. The only realistic solution in the immediate future is perhaps to have HSF's path take a northern route north of Molokai. Then it should avoid all the cute pink areas on NOAA's map. But how much time will be added to the trip? What about extra fuel burn? I like to hear how the antis propose to solve this problem since you say they are not against HSF's existence.
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Joshua: did you actually view Dr. Tepley's videos? Some of the questions you're asking above are answered there.

Miulang

P.S. The antis (the ones who are concerned about whale strikes) would say that ALL large boats should not be allowed to travel faster than 12-14 mph in the Marine Sanctuary areas. And you're right about "being fair" to Superferry by demanding that all other modes of floating transportation be subject to the same rules and regulations. Which is why, in the case of Kahului Harbor anyway, I think an EIS needs to be done in conjunction with the planning for harbor growth for 2030, not just because of Superferry.

Last edited by Miulang; February 10th, 2007 at 05:51 PM.
  #68  
Old February 10th, 2007, 06:16 PM
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
Very few of the other commercial and private boats has the capability of going 35 knots.
That statement is totally false.

Quote:
Plus, if a "cigarette" boat (which can go faster than that) DID collide with a whale, the whale would probably win because it would be far larger than the boat.
Again, a totally false premise, based on your "probably" instead of hard facts which would show just the opposite of your guess. And no, I didn't research it; my opinion comes from a lifetime as a professional in boating and in various maritime industries.
And before you ask, I say again that I have no connection whatsoever with the SuperFerry, other than having seen the massive research they've done to ensure whale safety and stop invasive species, etc. Again, they have already gone far beyond state and federal requirements.

Quote:
The twin-hulled Superferry will have twice the likelihood of striking whales, honu and other protected marine animals by virtue of its configuration, nevermind the speeds at which it could cruise.
Wrong again. JoshuaTree is, once again, totally correct in pointing out the lower draft and wetted surface of the SuperFerry due to its hull configuration and design. And as JT also noted, SuperFerry HAS NO PROPELLERS. Sea life is harmed more by propellers than by hull strikes.
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  #69  
Old February 10th, 2007, 06:21 PM
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

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Originally Posted by LikaNui View Post
That statement is totally false.

Again, a totally false premise, based on your "probably" instead of hard facts which would show just the opposite of your guess. And no, I didn't research it; my opinion comes from a lifetime as a professional in boating and in various maritime industries.
And before you ask, I say again that I have no connection whatsoever with the SuperFerry, other than having seen the massive research they've done to ensure whale safety and stop invasive species, etc. Again, they have already gone far beyond state and federal requirements.

Wrong again. JoshuaTree is, once again, totally correct in pointing out the lower draft and wetted surface of the SuperFerry due to its hull configuration and design. And as JT also noted, SuperFerry HAS NO PROPELLERS. Sea life is harmed more by propellers than by hull strikes.
The baby whales swim close to the surface, which means a lower draft boat would float HIGHER in the water (which is closer to where baby whales swim). Dr. Tepley notes that whales have probably become acclimated to the "noise" from propellers and when they hear those, they know now to get out of the way. The Superferry generates a "different" sound underwater (heard on the Tepley video). The Canary Islands ferries are basically the same as the Superferry, and they have documented evidence that those boats do kill whales (again, see the video).

I ain't gonna argue with you guys anymore until you tell me that you've watched those videos. THEN we can debate more intelligently. and you can try to debunk Dr. Tepley's observations.

Miulang

Last edited by Miulang; February 10th, 2007 at 06:27 PM.
  #70  
Old February 10th, 2007, 06:49 PM
joshuatree joshuatree is offline
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
Joshua: did you actually view Dr. Tepley's videos? Some of the questions you're asking above are answered there.

Miulang

P.S. The antis (the ones who are concerned about whale strikes) would say that ALL large boats should not be allowed to travel faster than 12-14 mph in the Marine Sanctuary areas. And you're right about "being fair" to Superferry by demanding that all other modes of floating transportation be subject to the same rules and regulations. Which is why, in the case of Kahului Harbor anyway, I think an EIS needs to be done in conjunction with the planning for harbor growth for 2030, not just because of Superferry.
I've looked at the video a while back so I'm not gonna sit another 10 min minimum to review it again. The bottom line message I get from antis are speed limits of maybe around 12 knots. That won't work for a "reasonable" interisland ferry. Not unless people are willing to take 8 hour trips. And we all know the answer to that so essentially, antis are saying no to HSF's existence.

Here are possible solutions.

1) Invest in a system of underwater, passive sonar bouys that essentially forms an underwater mapping system that all boats can link up to see where the whales/large marine mammals are at any given time so they can react accordingly. But who's gonna pony up the $$$? And will antis start saying passive sonar will hurt whales too?

2) Arm a ship with an active sonar which may hurt the whales but you can locate the whale or even drive them away.

3) You have ships like HSF take an out of the way route which won't necessary reduce whale strike possibility to 0% but it will be much lower. But who is gonna pay for the extra time and fuel? Or maybe the state cuts HSF a tax break to comp for the extra fuel? Call it the whale tax?

I think with what HSF will implement, the chance of whale strikes will be about the same as what current ships experience.

Why not just invent a boat that can turbo boost and jump outta the water like Kit does in Knight Rider? So you see a whale, hit that turbo boost button.
  #71  
Old February 10th, 2007, 06:51 PM
joshuatree joshuatree is offline
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
The baby whales swim close to the surface, which means a lower draft boat would float HIGHER in the water (which is closer to where baby whales swim). Dr. Tepley notes that whales have probably become acclimated to the "noise" from propellers and when they hear those, they know now to get out of the way. The Superferry generates a "different" sound underwater (heard on the Tepley video). The Canary Islands ferries are basically the same as the Superferry, and they have documented evidence that those boats do kill whales (again, see the video).

I ain't gonna argue with you guys anymore until you tell me that you've watched those videos. THEN we can debate more intelligently. and you can try to debunk Dr. Tepley's observations.

Miulang
Miuling, that first statement is just utterly wrong. A lower draft boat doesn't mean the boat floats higher, it means less of the boat is below the waterline. If anything, you rather have less boat in the water if your concern is hitting marine life near the water's surface. There is no way to have the boat completely out of the water. That would make it a plane.
  #72  
Old February 10th, 2007, 06:55 PM
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Talking Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
The baby whales swim close to the surface, which means a lower draft boat would float HIGHER in the water (which is closer to where baby whales swim).
HUH?!? Do you mean a deeper draft? Or by "lower draft" do you mean a shallower draft? Your statement is totally confusing. SuperFerry has a shallow draft, as JT and I mentioned earlier. Are you saying that whales are safer with a deeper draft boat because the whales are close to the surface? If so, that makes no sense at all. A deeper draft boat has more of an appendage to hit the whales at any level. It's not like there's some kind of empty gap between the bottom of their keel/hull and the surface of the water.
Read JT's correct description of how the SuperFerry's design presents less total underwater area and therefore less risk to a whale.
Nope, you've confused me about what you're trying to say here.

Quote:
Dr. Tepley notes that whales have probably become acclimated to the "noise" from propellers and when they hear those, they know now to get out of the way.
Oh, he says they "probably" have? And we're supposed to watch videos of a person who uses "probably" as their premise? No thanks.
And again, my lifetime of experience counters Tepley's "probably". I've encountered whales zillions of times. They hate noise and do notbecome "acclimated" to it. They always turn away from powerboats. And when I've been on silent sailboats and have had whales surface on either side (a mother on one side and her calf on the other), I start my engine -- in neutral so no prop is spinning -- and then crank the stereo up to full volume and also grab a couple of big cooking pots from the galley and bang those together. The whales leave when the engine first starts and before I even get to the secondary noises.
And by the way, once they're safely clear, I change course and let them proceed the way they were going.
And now, for a moment, I'm going to slightly "thread drift" though it's related and, hopefully, humorous:
First, you have to know that sailboats have various underwater configurations -- not including high-tech canting keels, etc., the basics are full keels, full keels with a cutaway forefoot, and fin keels, which are a shorter but deeper appendage. Well, I've heard many experts say (and I have experienced it myself) that female whales see that deep fin keel as being the, um, extended member of an aroused male whale. This explains many instances of female whales intentionaly rubbing up against the bottom of sailboats with fin keels.

Quote:
The Canary Islands ferries are basically the same as the Superferry
"Basically"? "Probably"? Maybe? Maybe not?
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  #73  
Old February 10th, 2007, 07:01 PM
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

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Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
3) You have ships like HSF take an out of the way route which won't necessary reduce whale strike possibility to 0% but it will be much lower.
Remember, JT, that SuperFerry has already planned on doing that very thing.
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  #74  
Old February 10th, 2007, 07:21 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

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Originally Posted by LikaNui View Post
Oh, he says they "probably" have? And we're supposed to watch videos of a person who uses "probably" as their premise? No thanks.
And again, my lifetime of experience counters Tepley's "probably". I've encountered whales zillions of times. They hate noise and do notbecome "acclimated" to it. They always turn away from powerboats. And when I've been on silent sailboats and have had whales surface on either side (a mother on one side and her calf on the other), I start my engine -- in neutral so no prop is spinning -- and then crank the stereo up to full volume and also grab a couple of big cooking pots from the galley and bang those together. The whales leave when the engine first starts and before I even get to the secondary noises.
And by the way, once they're safely clear, I change course and let them proceed the way they were going.
And now, for a moment, I'm going to slightly "thread drift" though it's related and, hopefully, humorous:
First, you have to know that sailboats have various underwater configurations -- not including high-tech canting keels, etc., the basics are full keels, full keels with a cutaway forefoot, and fin keels, which are a shorter but deeper appendage. Well, I've heard many experts say (and I have experienced it myself) that female whales see that deep fin keel as being the, um, extended member of an aroused male whale. This explains many instances of female whales intentionaly rubbing up against the bottom of sailboats with fin keels.
?
The 27 minute version of the 10 minute video you saw has more explanation of Dr. Tepley's conjectures. And there's a new 12 minute video (Superferry 2)that has additional information not included in the first video. I'm only pointing out what I learned in those videos.

I would be in favor of limiting ALL large vessels to travelling no more than 12-14 knots within the channels between Oahu and Maui. If Superferry wants to go 35 knots, let them take the more northern route around Molokai all the time and just put it in their literature that the trip is gonna take 4 hours and not 2 1/2 hours. If people think it's gonna take 4 hours, then that will be their expectation and they'll learn to deal with it. But if you tell them that it's gonna take 2 1/2 hours and then it ends up taking 4 hours some times and then 2 1/2 hours other times, well, I don't think your customers are going to be very happy (at least not the ones who get stuck with the 4 hour transit time, especially when they were expecting it to take only 2 1/2 hours! Either that or let passengers know that if they plan to travel by Superferry between November and May that the trip will take 4 hours so they "learn" not to expect a shorter trip).

I don't think it's an either/or issue as far as the potential whale strikes are concerned. For me, it would be finding a compromise solution. It would be nifty if there was an "early warning system" that the whales could learn to get out of the way of the boats, too, because I think they're just slightly more agile than any boat could be.

As a former and soon-to-be again resident of Maui, my main concern is NOT about Superferry and its impacts. I'm more worried about managing the growth of Kahului Harbor to ensure that essential goods for residents will continue to arrive without disruption. If it means condemning the 2 hotels that sit right on Kahului Harbor, tearing them down to have more space on the harborside for YB, so be it. Some choices do have to be made, and not everybody's going to be happy. But the ultimate bottom line should be that decisions made about Neighbor Island ports and their usage should be up to the individual counties and NOT up to Superferry or anybody on Oahu, which is why I'm glad they're holding hearings on Kauai and Maui this weekend so Oahu legislators can hear the concerns of the Neighbor Island folks.

Miulang

Last edited by Miulang; February 10th, 2007 at 07:39 PM.
  #75  
Old February 10th, 2007, 07:52 PM
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 4

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Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
The 27 minute version of the 10 minute video you saw has more explanation of Dr. Tepley's conjectures.
Oh, Miulang. [/shaking head sadly] How many times have you been asked to stop with the "guess"es and "maybe"s and "probably"s? And now "conjectures"?!!! Please! Do NOT take us for fools.
Surely you know that Webster's defines conjecture as "inferring, theorizing, guesswork, or predicting from incomplete evidence". You have now convinced me to NOT watch Dr. Tepley's videos.

Quote:
I would be in favor of limiting ALL large vessels to travelling no more than 12-14 knots within the channels
Simply not feasible. Wave conditions (height, angle, direction, etc.) dictate speed, not some random number pulled out of thin air. Sometimes a boat can be doing 14 knots and pounding like hell, but increase it to 15 and it smooths out drastically.

Quote:
I don't think your customers are going to be very happy
Again with the guesses and presumption, not based on any, you know, FACT.

Quote:
I don't think it's an either/or issue (...) I think they're just slightly more agile than any boat could be.
See how many times with the guesses? Four speculations in just one post. [/sigh]
Tell you what. Why not suggest that SuperFerry pay a large fine (say, to a whale foundation for research, or something similar) for every time they strike a whale? Better yet, apply that to any commercial or private boat that hits a whale.
One way or another, that solves the problem. And without any guesses or maybes or probablys or conjectures.
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Last edited by LikaNui; February 10th, 2007 at 07:55 PM.
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