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  #101  
Old October 10th, 2007, 11:12 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by Keanu View Post
No comment, next question!

I've already said too much.



I think it's a forgone conslusion that most of the Neighbor Island legislators will oppose a special session and I think some of the Niehgbor Island reps will have some support from Oahu but Majority rules. When leadership makes a request, most of the troops fall in line.



Not if the Leg amends the statute. An amended statute that allows the Superferry to operate without the EA would render the Judge's decision irrelevent.
But you also know that Maui Tomorrow and the Sierra Club are not going to let it end there. As in a chess game, there will be another appeal. Would it go back to the HSC, or could it go higher than that, like to the 9th Circuit in SF?

If the Legislature rewrote the law and allowed HSF to be exempted, wouldn't that send a dangerous signal to the business community? And I mean in a positive (for big businesses, anyway) way that if you play hardball, the Legislature will keel over and give you what you want? Is that why all the legislators are kinda wishy washy about going into special session?

Miulang
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Last edited by Miulang; October 10th, 2007 at 11:15 PM.
  #102  
Old October 10th, 2007, 11:18 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

By any chance does the SuperFerry have to pay back the State of Hawaii for a loan? If so then a Special Session could make it so that the SuperFerry can delay paying back the state during the time the EA is being done. This is of couse assuming the SuperFerry is expected to stay for the long term and not pull out in a couple of months.
  #103  
Old October 10th, 2007, 11:19 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
But you also know that Maui Tomorrow and the Sierra Club are not going to let it end there. As in a chess game, there will be another appeal. Would it go back to the HSC, or could it go higher than that, like to the 9th Circuit in SF?

If the Legislature rewrote the law and allowed HSF to be exempted, wouldn't that send a dangerous signal to the business community? And I mean in a positive (for big businesses, anyway) way that if you play hardball, the Legislature will keel over and give you what you want? Is that why all the legislators are kinda wishy washy about going into special session?

Miulang
If this were a Chess game, the Sierra Club and its allies would be playing without their queen and a bishop... only a matter of time before the King is cornered...checkmate. Superferry wins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
If the Legislature rewrote the law and allowed HSF to be exempted, wouldn't that send a dangerous signal to the business community? And I mean in a positive (for big businesses, anyway) way that if you play hardball, the Legislature will keel over and give you what you want? Is that why all the legislators are kinda wishy washy about going into special session?
Miulang
I think this is an isolated issue so no, I don't think convening a special session on this issue sets a precedent or dangerous signal to other businesses. This is just cleanup work, and a brilliant opportunity for the powers that be at the Capitol to take the bull by its horns.

Last edited by Keanu; October 10th, 2007 at 11:31 PM.
  #104  
Old October 10th, 2007, 11:25 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by craig foo View Post
Working class blokes like myself on Kauai are sure not going to be able to take more than a few days off from work to go by way of Superferry to Oahu, or to Maui via Oahu, or to Hawaii Island via Oahu. A round trip with personal vehicle would waste two days just preparing for, and doing transit on the ferry...and that would be if everything went smoothly!
eric and i are definitely working class. unless we bought used (maybe a 90s LS400), even with the friend/family discount we could get since we have family working for servco, we wouldn't be able to afford even a lexus IS, much less a more expensive benz or beamer.

that said, we did a cost comparo back in july and i posted our findings here. note that superferry's fares at the time were undiscounted:

Quote:
eric and i did a quick compare of travelling to maui in september from a thursday to tuesday and found that if we were to fly go! on the $39 fare and grab the el cheapo econ car (we're talking chevy aveo sized car) on enterprise rental, we'd save about $150 versus riding the superferry and bringing eric's titan.

if we upgraded to a full-sized car with enterprise, we'd save about $60.
paying $150 more to drive the truck for five days on maui would have been worth it. last year, when we went to maui for a similar holiday, we rented a pontiac vibe. it sucked dookie on a stick, esp when negotiating the road to hana. if i remember correctly, if we were to take the mini cooper instead of the titan, the price difference would be even smaller. how fun it would have been to take a cooper to hana--that would have been a ride in itself!

of course, how long the $39 fares will last is anyone's guess. if go! goes, then definitely, for a trip as i described above, superferry would have been much more affordable compared to renting a an economy car plus paying the kind of fares aloha and hawaiian were charging pre-go! (you know, the kind of fares they'll probably charge if and when go! is gone).

*thumbs down*

moreover, i don't agree that we'd waste two days just planning/organizing our vehicle to take it on the superferry. to me, it takes more time to pack our snorkel and/or camping gear neatly in luggage so that it doesn't sully our clothes while making sure our total luggage doesn't weigh more than the limit to take on the plane versus just throwing it in our trunk or truck cab.

of course, you're on kauai; we're on oahu. *shrug*

by the way, on our last trip, the few times it came up that we were from honolulu, mauians were always saying, "right on!" never once did we feel unwelcome or unwanted. that's why i'm so saddened at all the anti-oahuan vitriol some neighbor island folk have spouted.
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"when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213
  #105  
Old October 10th, 2007, 11:27 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

Uh oh...looks the the Gov. is preparing her unified command on Kaua'i to go beyond mano a mano with the protestors on Kaua'i. Ian Lind's blog posted this very interesting little requisition from the DOT Harbors Div. for all kinds of riot gear. The req was dated 9-18-2007 and was for "helmets, face shields, body shields, protective body equipment, protective gas mask, etc."

Combine this with pictures of a lot of CG zodiacs being hidden behind a bunch of cargo containers at Nawiliwili Harbor and it sounds more like the Gov. is planning for a riot like the one that disrupted Seattle during the WTC meeting a few years ago.

Miulang
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  #106  
Old October 10th, 2007, 11:29 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by helen View Post

Are you opposed to it because of the concept of service it offers is flawed or because of how everything was done to get the service here?
Both

I also don't want to see Kauai, the Big Island, and to a lesser extent, Maui, become a surburb of Oahu.
  #107  
Old October 10th, 2007, 11:31 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

Ok..time foa me to get outta Depression! It's getting interesting!

BAZOOKAS? Weapons? OMG!

Auntie Lynn
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  #108  
Old October 10th, 2007, 11:33 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
But you also know that Maui Tomorrow and the Sierra Club are not going to let it end there. As in a chess game, there will be another appeal. Would it go back to the HSC, or could it go higher than that, like to the 9th Circuit in SF?
Miulang


not sure how it would happen that this matter would go to 9th circuit. someone please correct me if i am wrong (i'm not a lawyer, but i worked with enough of em): before it would go to the 9th circuit appellate court in san fran for appeal, it would have to be heard in the USDC court in honolulu. in order for that to happen, federal law would have to have some sort of jurisdiction in this matter, and i'm just not convinced at this time that it could. my understanding is that a case can't just jump from hawaii state supreme court to the federal district court system...unless someone comes up with a plausible argument that barring the superferry is unjustly barring interstate commerce or something like that (intrastate commerce is, on the other hand, as far as i am aware, simply a state matter).
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"when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213
  #109  
Old October 10th, 2007, 11:35 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by Keanu View Post
Both

I also don't want to see Kauai, the Big Island, and to a lesser extent, Maui, become a surburb of Oahu.
I don't think the majority of Superferry supporters or Hawaii residents want that either. But stopping this boat is a waste of your good energy.

Stop the upzoning of ag land to houses. Stop residential and commercial development. Work with the council and the state. Be ready to fight your cousins cousins who stand to get rich of off the development by selling their land to developers. Be ready to accept that home prices will rise even further than they have been in the past. Be ready to accept that job opportunities will continue to be limited.

I am serious. This is not sarcasm. There are much better ways to stop the other islands from becoming another Oahu. I definitely support that. But people have to be willing to fight and suffer. Molokai is the only half successful model. It has not been easy for them and the fight never ends.
  #110  
Old October 10th, 2007, 11:38 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by kamuelakea View Post
I don't think the majority of Superferry supporters or Hawaii residents want that either. But stopping this boat is a waste of your good energy.

Stop the upzoning of ag land to houses. Stop residential and commercial development. Work with the council and the state. Be ready to fight your cousins cousins who stand to get rich of off the development by selling their land to developers. Be ready to accept that home prices will rise even further than they have been in the past. Be ready to accept that job opportunities will continue to be limited.

I am serious. This is not sarcasm. There are much better ways to stop the other islands from becoming another Oahu. I definitely support that. But people have to be willing to fight and suffer. Molokai is the only half successful model. It has not been easy for them and the fight never ends.
holey effing cow. do any of you see pigs flying somewhere? or is hell freezing over? because, by god, for once i wholeheartedly and without reservation agree with kamuelakea!! aaaack!
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superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

"when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213
  #111  
Old October 10th, 2007, 11:42 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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holey effing cow. do any of you see pigs flying somewhere? or is hell freezing over? because, by god, for once i wholeheartedly and without reservation agree with kamuelakea!! aaaack!
Correction honeygurl. Ass juss da firss time you admit in public dat u agree wid me. I can feel da energy sometimes an I know you agree but no PC to say.

I catch dat Kamuelakea is like one bad car wreck on H-3, no like look but kannah help.

Aloha Auntie
  #112  
Old October 10th, 2007, 11:46 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by ericncyn View Post


not sure how it would happen that this matter would go to 9th circuit. someone please correct me if i am wrong (i'm not a lawyer, but i worked with enough of em): before it would go to the 9th circuit appellate court in san fran for appeal, it would have to be heard in the USDC court in honolulu. in order for that to happen, federal law would have to have some sort of jurisdiction in this matter, and i'm just not convinced at this time that it could. my understanding is that a case can't just jump from hawaii state supreme court to the federal district court system...unless someone comes up with a plausible argument that barring the superferry is unjustly barring interstate commerce or something like that (intrastate commerce is, on the other hand, as far as i am aware, simply a state matter).
The catch might be the exemption from the DOT that allowed MARAD to give the $140 million loan guarantee to HSF without the required EA. MARAD, as a federal agency, does have the same environmental requirements that the State has under HRS343.

Miulang

P.S. Have you noticed how awfully quiet Dan the Man has been about the whole fiasco? Wasn't he just as big a proponent of HSF as the Gov. was?
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Last edited by Miulang; October 10th, 2007 at 11:49 PM.
  #113  
Old October 10th, 2007, 11:47 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

For the record. I was PRO PRO PRO "Save Sandy Beach" and "Save Our Surf". I bring that one up because I thought that saving the Ka'iwi Coast was an awesome "David and Goliath" story where the little guys took on the big guys (including Bishop Estate) and WON.

That was a real fight with a real goal and a real need and a real outcome. This one seems funny kine. No smell right.
  #114  
Old October 10th, 2007, 11:48 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by kamuelakea View Post
I don't think the majority of Superferry supporters or Hawaii residents want that either. But stopping this boat is a waste of your good energy.

Stop the upzoning of ag land to houses. Stop residential and commercial development. Work with the council and the state. Be ready to fight your cousins cousins who stand to get rich of off the development by selling their land to developers. Be ready to accept that home prices will rise even further than they have been in the past. Be ready to accept that job opportunities will continue to be limited.

I am serious. This is not sarcasm. There are much better ways to stop the other islands from becoming another Oahu. I definitely support that. But people have to be willing to fight and suffer. Molokai is the only half successful model. It has not been easy for them and the fight never ends.

Very good points.
  #115  
Old October 10th, 2007, 11:53 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Very good points.
Mahalo Brah. Keep up da level headed discussion. Somebody gotta make up for my outrageous emotional outbursts. Serious kine.
  #116  
Old October 10th, 2007, 11:54 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by helen View Post
This much is true, it would appear that all the talk about scenic views seems to be for the Oahu to Maui route and it's return trip.
Are you opposed to it because of the concept of service it offers is flawed or because of how everything was done to get the service here?
The concept of service HI Superferries offer is imperiously designed toward pefection, especially control, and, thereby, pathological to popular welfare of whatever county. The manifestation of HI Superferries via the dysfunctionality of the United State's Hawaii (unless its function is to serve corporate america) state government, especially the Hawaii Executive branch, is a forgivable crime of misrepresentaion, but not a tolerable one.

The islands of the Hawaii archipeligo should not be governed by "one man, one vote" Honolulu wins all. Had the states of the United States been set up in such a fashion as the State of Hawaii, the population of New York City would have decided all matters of the nation. Democractically speaking, it has to be apparent that the peoples of Hawaii, the indigenous people of each island, would be better served were Hawaii a nation, independent of, but hopefully able to on good terms with all Mesonorthamerican peoples.

Last edited by craig foo; October 11th, 2007 at 12:15 AM.
  #117  
Old October 10th, 2007, 11:57 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by kamuelakea View Post
Correction honeygurl. Ass juss da firss time you admit in public dat u agree wid me. I can feel da energy sometimes an I know you agree but no PC to say.
nope.

...and back you go to your usual modus operandi of taking a thread of truth and weaving it into a tapestry of crap.
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superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

"when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213
  #118  
Old October 11th, 2007, 12:00 AM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by craig foo View Post
The concept of service HI Superferries offer is imperiously designed toward pefection, especially control, and, thereby, pathological to popular welfare of whatever county. The manifestation of HI Superferries via the dysfunctionality of the United State's Hawaii (unless its function is to serve corporate america) state government, especially the Hawaii Executive branch, is a forgivable crime of misrepresentaion, but not a tolerable one.
Yeah, face it, Craig, Kaua'i, in this scenario, is being treated like the red headed stepchild compared to Maui. Did you notice how Garibaldi insisted that if HSF couldn't sail to Maui that it couldn't sail in Hawai'i at all? Wassup with that? You guys going take that kind of insult lying down? You guys get the most beautiful scenery in the world, good saimin and fried chicken, Tip Top restaurant...what else now? Oh yeah, gridlock on your one, 2-lane road

Eh, Maui get ROCKS! Yeah, the best grade for stone walls and imus. We get Krispy Kreme, we get Tasaka Guri Guri, we get Komoda Bakery cream puffs...oh yeah, and gridlock on our 4-lane roads (cannot call 'em highways like get on Honolulu because the speed limit only 50 mph though).

Miulang
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  #119  
Old October 11th, 2007, 12:03 AM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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I also don't want to see Kauai, the Big Island, and to a lesser extent, Maui, become a surburb of Oahu.
The commute times between islands via boat would make that prospect impractical.

So the real underling issue is having a service that allows a person with a car to travel between the islands. Is that your fear? Commuting between the islands is basically a bad idea?

The reason I bring this up is that even though the SuperFerry fails and leaves the state what is to prevent another company to offer the same kind of service? And this time they avoid the mistakes that the SuperFerry did. Do the EA/EIS before starting service, travel at a slower speed like 12 to 15 mph that way they can avoid the whales, make the cruise an overnight experience, be really careful with screening of incoming passengers making sure no invasive stuff comes through. And the real kicker is all the harbor improvements have been done already.
  #120  
Old October 11th, 2007, 12:04 AM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by kamuelakea View Post
I don't think the majority of Superferry supporters or Hawaii residents want that either. But stopping this boat is a waste of your good energy.

Stop the upzoning of ag land to houses. Stop residential and commercial development. Work with the council and the state. Be ready to fight your cousins cousins who stand to get rich of off the development by selling their land to developers. Be ready to accept that home prices will rise even further than they have been in the past. Be ready to accept that job opportunities will continue to be limited.

I am serious. This is not sarcasm. There are much better ways to stop the other islands from becoming another Oahu. I definitely support that. But people have to be willing to fight and suffer. Molokai is the only half successful model. It has not been easy for them and the fight never ends.
It boils down to sustainability. As it stands now there is glut of jobs on most of the islands. But they are all in unsustainable industries.

We need to clean up our business climate here to attract more sustainable industries. Currently it seems investors need to confer with tree huggers
before they invest a dime here.
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  #121  
Old October 11th, 2007, 12:06 AM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by ericncyn View Post
nope.

...and back you go to your usual modus operandi of taking a thread of truth and weaving it into a tapestry of crap.
Gaaaaannn Fannit. I thought you was moah smat.

Nevah mind.
  #122  
Old October 11th, 2007, 12:12 AM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by helen View Post
The commute times between islands via boat would make that prospect impractical.

So the real underling issue is having a service that allows a person with a car to travel between the islands. Is that your fear? Commuting between the islands is basically a bad idea?

The reason I bring this up is that even though the SuperFerry fails and leaves the state what is to prevent another company to offer the same kind of service? And this time they avoid the mistakes that the SuperFerry did. Do the EA/EIS before starting service, travel at a slower speed like 12 to 15 mph that way they can avoid the whales, make the cruise an overnight experience, be really careful with screening of incoming passengers making sure no invasive stuff comes through. And the real kicker is all the harbor improvements have been done already.
I think you hit the nail on the head, Helen. Very few people oppose the concept but many do oppose this particular entity and the way the situation developed. The need has been expressed by many people in Hawai'i for this alternative mode of transportation. If the playing field was levelled and end runs like what happened with HSF were not allowed to occur, I have no doubt that another entity would want to try to set up a ferry service in Hawai'i. And who knows? Maybe there will even be a LOCAL company that sets up a ferry line? I have a feeling that the EA that will be done for all commercial harbors is going to generate EISs as well.

For Maui, I really think building a brand new pier away from all the congestion in the current harbor would be the best solution. There is land on the west side of the harbor (Joshuatree and I discussed this here a long time ago) that could be developed. But it would take a significant bit of money to dredge that part of the harbor and build the facilities for the cruise ships and a ferry line. But at least the solution would be available for a future partner rather than one that is hastily thrown together and that satisfies no one.

Miulang
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  #123  
Old October 11th, 2007, 12:13 AM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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Originally Posted by Konaguy View Post
It boils down to sustainability. As it stands now there is glut of jobs on most of the islands. But they are all in unsustainable industries.

We need to clean up our business climate here to attract more sustainable industries. Currently it seems investors need to confer with tree huggers
before they invest a dime here.
Amen to that.

I asked decades ago;

Where is the world class convention center??? Took until what 1993? and the dummies put it outside Waikiki so tourists need transportation.

Where is the Cruise industry. I wondered that way before NCL. Hawaii should be one of the premier cruise destinations in the world and yet nothing happened until recent.

Where is the public fish markets? Finally Oahu has one.

Where is the world class aquariums? This is Hawaii! Waikiki is nice but not world class.

Where is the space port? Hawaiis location near the equator gives rockets an extra boost into orbit and the ocean provides a safety zone.

Where is the high tech and bio tech? Clean, green and high pay?

Where is the Hawaii Peace center? Similar to the East West Center but dedicated to getting leaders of waring nations to meet. Like Camp David in Hawaii. How could anyone continue to plot wars when meeting on some beach front estate in Hawaii.


I could go on and on.
  #124  
Old October 11th, 2007, 01:05 AM
craig foo
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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And the real kicker is all the harbor improvements have been done already.
When I look at the ugly supperferries' ramp in Nawiliwili and the pre-existing soccerfield-size paved and 8 foot high cyclone fence enclosed staging area the superferries have appropriated, compliments Hawaii DoT, for their exclusive use, I almost always wonder where in the world the alleged $40 million went.

The superferries' Nawiliwili ramp was the only substancial physical "improvement" made with the State's $40million at Nawiliwili harbor. The ramp was made in China somewheres, shipped to Nawilwili on a barge and set up by a honolulu construction crew specialized in harbor operations, flying in for the weekend to install the ramp. I am most certain that, in a pinch, the same crew could take the same ramp down in a day and the ramp would be out of the harbor headed for a new buyer someheres else before morning.
  #125  
Old October 11th, 2007, 01:16 AM
craig foo
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericncyn View Post
never once did we feel unwelcome or unwanted. that's why i'm so saddened at all the anti-oahuan vitriol some neighbor island folk have spouted..
Try to put yourself in our place. Sure we're at the same table: while you're sitting at the table salivating with anticipation of a hearty meal, we're in your plate.
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