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  • Public schools

    I know plenty of Honolulu professional-class people who work hard to send their kids to Punahou, Iolani, Mid-Pac, etc. I also know of private school kids whose parents are themselves teachers... in the public schools. They've apparently bought into the idea that private schools are inherently better than public schools in Hawaii.

    But I also know a few parents who've gone the other way, and despite being able to afford private school tuitions, have nevertheless decided to send their kids to public schools. These folks are apparently in the minority, and people often look at them like they're nuts.

    There's a new book out about this:

    Going Against the Grain: When Professionals in Hawai'i Choose Public Schools Instead of Private Schools, by UH professor Ann Shea Bayer.

    I leafed through it the other day, and was impressed. Bayer examines not so much the pros and cons of public vs private schools, but rather the perceptions of private and public schools and the sociology and motivations behind the perpetuation of this public/private polarization.

    She points out, for example, that HONOLULU Magazine, the magazine of Honolulu's moneyed class, treats public schools very differently than how it treats private schools. I'd never thought about it before but she's right; A. Kam Napier doesn't publish a "GRADING THE PRIVATE SCHOOLS" issue.

  • #2
    Re: Public schools

    The Star-Bulletin had an article about Bayer's book a few weeks ago:

    http://www.starbulletin.com/editoria...ng_public.html

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Public schools

      Originally posted by Glen Miyashiro View Post
      I also know of private school kids whose parents are themselves teachers... in the public schools. They've apparently bought into the idea that private schools are inherently better than public schools in Hawaii.
      Why stop at picking on public school teachers? How about all the state politicians, up to and including past governors? Linda Lingle has no children, but the four governors preceding her all had at least one child that were enrolled in private school. The governor and state legislators play big roles in shaping public school policy and funding.
      This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Public schools

        That may be true, but the governors themselves were public school grads. The idea, as we have hashed out here over and over, that lawmakers and teachers who don't send their kids to public schools can't care as much about those public schools is weak.

        One of those officials you point to has a kid who is dyslexic. Would you suggest that for political reasons this official should have sent this special-needs kid to a public school, where (a) either the student's needs could not be met or (b) it would cost the state a LOT more than the average per-student allotment to meet these needs? Or would you, like me, be grateful that there is a private school who specializes in working with these students, and that this family had the personal financial resources to (send this kid there?

        Let us not forget also that the reason Hawaii has more private schools (per capita) than any other state is because (a) public education didn't exist when many of these schools were founded and (b) because some people believe that religious education can be an important, beneficial component to a child's development. If you are like me, you believe fervently in the separation of church and state, yet would you deny any citizen's right to educate his or her own children in a religious setting? I wouldn't, and it offends me that people think a teacher who sends his or her kids to a private school is somehow denying the value of his or her own work in a public school.

        Back to the original post: I can't argue with Glen's summary. If a public school teacher IS sending his or her kids to a private school, he or she probably IS saying the private school is better, but this statement is incomplete. You have to add for his or her children. As I seem to have to remind people all the time, private schools exist to target certain kinds of students. This is a completely different mission from a public school's mission, which is to educate everyone.

        I know two brothers, one of whom went to school with me (at HBA) and one who went to a public high school, despite one parent's being an employee at HBA. These parents decided that the private school was right for one brother but because of the other's interest in band, the private school was NOT the right school for that brother. I know other students who left private schools to attend Castle because of its drama program, Pearl City because of its band program, Roosevelt because of its athletic program, and other private schools because of whatever THEY had to offer. You simply cannot fault a parent for seeking the best fit for his or her kids: that's what all parents do if they have the means to make it work. To imply that there's any way of calling one school better or worse than another for ANY student is silly.

        Kamehameha, Iolani, Punahou, HBA, MidPac, Lutheran, AOP, Assets, and every other private school in this state each has a mission that is specific and often unique. That's what's good about a private school. One school doesn't have to use resources to teach ESL students because it doesn't accept ESL students, while another does use those resources for ESL programs because it DOES.

        Now, public education is different. Its noble (and super-super-super important) mission is to educate whoever comes through the doors. That's tough to do, as was illustrated by the Felix Consent decree, which basically said, "Look: you can't say you don't have the resources to teach these kids because teaching these kids IS YOUR PURPOSE." I have a friend who teaches deaf kids in a public intermediate school. Most years, she has ONE STUDENT all year. The per-student expense in public schools is around nine thousand bucks, but for this one student it was obviously much, much more. What does this mean? It means some of the resources that might have gone for the education of other students were being used to pay for this one teacher for this one student.

        I don't have a problem with that, but you can see how, because of its mission, there is a built-in restriction on what public schools are able to do. Gifted students have special needs. Dyslexic students have special needs. Autistic students have special needs. That's a lot of special needs, and a public school's job is to meet them all. It's a lofty ambition, but that's a tall order. Private schools don't have to deal with that. And parents, if they have the means and motivation to find the school that best suits their kids' needs, should be allowed to do it without chastisement.
        But I'm disturbed! I'm depressed! I'm inadequate! I GOT IT ALL! (George Costanza)
        GrouchyTeacher.com

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Public schools

          Originally posted by scrivener View Post
          That may be true, but the governors themselves were public school grads. The idea, as we have hashed out here over and over, that lawmakers and teachers who don't send their kids to public schools can't care as much about those public schools is weak.
          If you are referring to my post, you might want to read it one more time.

          Finished? Okay. Note that I did not criticize public school teachers or politicians for sending their kids to private school. All that I was saying was that public school teachers should not be singled out for sending their own children to private schools, while turning a blind eye to the actions of other public officials doing the same thing.

          The reasons you give for a public official enrolling their child in a private institution are all compelling. But you know what? AFAIAC, it is nobody's damn business to demand an explanation on why a public official/teacher sends their kids to a public or private school. It's a personal matter of choice. If it's an elected official, then it is up to voters to decide if they are going to make it an issue. But up until now, I've not known of any local politician who's been voted out of office with the primary reason for their ouster being what school their child has been sent to. If anybody knows of anyone who has, please let me know. I would really be interested if that has ever happened.

          Most people seem to respect the idea that parents should have the freedom of choice when it comes to picking a school for their children. I fall into the camp which says that freedom should be not be something that is forfeited just because a parent enters the profession of teaching in a public school. So I hope that statement makes clear what my actual position on the issue is.

          Over the years, the media hasn't made a big deal about Governor "B" having a son at St. Louis or State Senator "T" having a daughter at Iolani. But for some reason, the same media sources will periodically put out stories about public school teachers who do the exact same thing. And THAT, I have a problem with. If a reporter is going to write a story about teachers sending their kids to private school, then they should be fair and talk about ALL public officials who do the same thing.... especially if their jobs/powers affect the operation of the public school system. This would include DOE administrators at all levels. BOE members. State reps and senators. The governor and lt. gov. Let's be fair here.

          Originally posted by scrivener View Post
          Let us not forget also that the reason Hawaii has more private schools (per capita) than any other state is because (a) public education didn't exist when many of these schools were founded
          Your other statements are true, for the most part. But this? I dunno.

          Hawaii's public school system was started in 1840. In fact, as the DOE has often proudly stated in its own PR material, it is the oldest public school system west of the Mississippi.

          Meanwhile, when were Hawaii's private schools started? Believe it or else,... they all started AFTERWARDS.

          Punahou - 1841
          St. Louis - 1846
          Iolani - 1863
          St. Andrews - 1867
          St. Anthony (Maui) - 1883
          Kamehameha - 1887
          Hawn. Mission - 1895

          Every other school like Mid-Pacific, Damien, Sacred Hearts, St. Patricks, St. Anthony (Kailua), Maryknoll, La Pietra, Hongwanji, Our Redeemer, Word Of Life, Lanakila Baptist......ALL OF THEM were founded in the 20th century. Even your alma mater (Hawaii Baptist) didn't get its start until 1949, more than a century after the Hawaii public school system was up and running.
          This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Public schools

            I might have been a little hair-trigger last night, 'though I certainly don't take back anything I wrote. I just see that we agree far more than we disagree.

            As for the public schools, I was aware of the DOE thing, but Hawaii wasn't even annexed until 1892 (if I remember correctly) and I don't know enough about how public public education was under the monarchy. I was sorta taking the assumption that America's self-imposed mandate to educate every child didn't really become part of Hawaii's culture until...well, maybe until much later. I could be completely wrong about this.
            But I'm disturbed! I'm depressed! I'm inadequate! I GOT IT ALL! (George Costanza)
            GrouchyTeacher.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Public schools

              Originally posted by scrivener View Post
              I might have been a little hair-trigger last night, 'though I certainly don't take back anything I wrote. I just see that we agree far more than we disagree.
              Absolutely. I just wanted to make it clear that I, for one, do not think public school teachers should be raked over the coals for having their kids in private school. (I would be a hypocrite for doing that!)

              At the same time, I realize that there's room for legitimate debate on this. I just get irritated whenever teachers are singled out in the debate, while the politicians and administrators seem to get a free ride on the scrutiny and criticism.

              Originally posted by scrivener View Post
              As for the public schools, I was aware of the DOE thing, but Hawaii wasn't even annexed until 1892 (if I remember correctly) and I don't know enough about how public public education was under the monarchy. I was sorta taking the assumption that America's self-imposed mandate to educate every child didn't really become part of Hawaii's culture until...well, maybe until much later. I could be completely wrong about this.
              The Hawn. monarchy was overthrown in 1893, but wasn't annexed until about 5 years later.

              Now, before anyone thinks that Hawaii's public schools during the monarchy era were two-bit diploma mills that focused on Lauhala basket weaving, keep in mind that in 1850, the kingdom of Hawaii had one of the highest literacy rates in the world. Higher than even the United States, at the time.
              This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Public schools

                Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
                Now, before anyone thinks that Hawaii's public schools during the monarchy era were two-bit diploma mills that focused on Lauhala basket weaving, keep in mind that in 1850, the kingdom of Hawaii had one of the highest literacy rates in the world.
                Humph, obviously spoken by someone who has not tried to weave a lauhala basket. I have, and it ain't dat easy!
                Now run along and play, but don’t get into trouble.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Public schools

                  Originally posted by Amati View Post
                  Humph, obviously spoken by someone who has not tried to weave a lauhala basket. I have, and it ain't dat easy!
                  Basket weaving was a breeze. It was kapa making that gave me fits!
                  This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Public schools

                    not having read the book at all, eric (pub school grad) and i (private school grad) and i aren't completely convinced of the study's effectiveness in the sense that we believe bayer's focus on professional parents is likely to have skewed her results.

                    more affluent families are likely to live in more affluent school districts. generally speaking, kaiser students will have certain resources available to them at home and at school that campbell students don't. this access generally makes kaiser students much more likely than then campbell counterparts to achieve certain levels of success. we surmise that socio-economic factors, rather than choice of private versus public school alone, are more important in predicting a child's future professional status.

                    we think considering the status of adults who grew up in poorer situations and less affluent school districts with a specific look at whether said adults went to private or public schools would have been more telling. for example, do the numbers show that blue collar or pink collar parents who scrape by to send their kids to private schools across town are greatly rewarded by having their children grow up to be professionals, versus parents of similar backgrounds who choose to send their kids to kalakaua and farrington? are poor kids who went to private school much more likely to go to and graduate from college than their public school neighborhood friends?
                    superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

                    "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

                    nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Bumping this thread...

                      As we receive the list of furlough days for the public school system, our president voices concern that students are not in school enough. Hmmm. Isn't that interesting?

                      Are there any other public school systems in the USA that are requiring furlough days for their teachers? From what I could google, as of the beginning of September there were furloughs planned in several states, but they used planning and workshop days that the teachers already scheduled, not instruction time. And we're talking 3-4 days, not the 17 days the Hawaii schools are facing.

                      If I kept DS out for any reason that the school felt was unexcused, I would get a nastygram accusing him of truancy and threatening his parents. But the school system can drop 17 full days of instruction with no problem. Am I the only one that sees the irony in this? Our kids are losing almost 1 month of instruction time. Can't we split these closings between waiver and half days and instruction days?

                      I have the list of closures from the newspaper, but DS's school has yet to send home any information finalizing their version of the days out. So I am in limbo, struggling with my schedule at work. I was pleased to see that the YMCA programs and Kama`aina Kids are stepping up to offer support, but of course that costs money. From what I hear, some of the teachers might be supplementing their income by working for the daycare programs on the furlough days. I'm glad they will have a recourse to make back lost salary, but our kids will not make back instruction.

                      Oh, yeah, sorry, I forgot. Paradise.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Public schools

                        it would make sense to make cuts in the fat and waste in a system before you go for the muscle and the bone.
                        I am afraid that hawaii is being guided by leaders that arent afraid of it being considered a failed state. I truly believe that given all the facets of failed leadership thruout the public sector and dominance by special interests both big business and labor unions that hawaii will be regarded as an example as how not to run a state government. When you go directly after the future of our population (education) then you threaten the well being of all.
                        I am quite surprised that there hasnt been mor of an uproar about this.
                        Lingle and the unions are severely jeopardizing are childrens future.
                        when they apply for college and university they are going to have the stigma of coming from a state that has very low test scores and very short school years.....same will apply for military service and jobs in the private and public sector. i dont think this has been thought out well at all.
                        the bigger the government the smaller the citizen.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Public schools

                          Originally posted by escondido100 View Post
                          when they apply for college and university they are going to have the stigma of coming from a state that has very low test scores and very short school years.....same will apply for military service and jobs in the private and public sector.
                          I wouldn't agree with the stigma issue. Our kid is applying to NROTC and colleges now, and no one cares which particular school she attends. All that really matters from the high school is a challenging course load and a decent GPA. The rest of it (perhaps the majority of it) is SAT scores, SAT II scores, AP test scores, and the "whole person" concept of extracurricular sports & community activities. 17 days of furlough or the state's averages just don't budge the needle on the college meters.

                          Maybe a weaker student would benefit from the caché of Punahou or Iolani, or even homeschooling. But I'm not so sure that I'd want to go to a college (let alone an employer) who's more impressed by my schools (or lack thereof) than by my achievements.

                          We don't fully depend on the public-school system either. She's taken more than her share of Kumon (both math & reading) and SAT prep classes.

                          For her applications to Mainland colleges I thought our kid would have to play up the "surfer grrrl from Ha-why-uh" diversity card. It turns out that she has a much more powerful diversity card to play: "woman engineer". For military enlistments, I think the recruiter pays much more attention to the ASVAB scores and the drug/felony waivers than to where the high-school diploma comes from.

                          The problem we're having at home is explaining to her that none of this furlough controversy matters to her. For seniors, high school is just about over. She's already submitted the applications, the colleges have all the info they need to make a decision, and the only thing left to do is to make sure that she doesn't end up with a felony DUI or get expelled for a weapons violation. However, being a teen, she fully absorbs (and amplifies) all the frustration and anger that she picks up from her teachers and then she manages to obsess about the controversy's effects on her. Endlessly and with great distraction from more important tasks like tracking the rest of the college-application paperwork or focusing on life after high school. We're trying to get her to understand that the real victims here are the teachers who are already working more for love than for money.
                          Youth may be wasted on the young, but retirement is wasted on the old.
                          Live like you're dying, invest like you're immortal.
                          We grow old if we stop playing, but it's never too late to have a happy childhood.
                          Forget about who you were-- discover who you are.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Public schools

                            I wanted to send my son to public school, but my partner disagreed.

                            He went to St. Mark's in Kaneone till 4th grade, until we discovered that the school had inadequate protections against bullying, a repressive, intolerant facade masquerading as 'zero mtolerance' that targeteted students with complaints against other students (for bully behaviour, of course, with parents who were on-site monitors). In other words, a closed society of 'haves' and 'have-nots.'

                            There are no guarantees that a private school will provide a better education; consumer reports does not list or rate private or public schools. We are on our own.

                            Although there are HI private schools which maintain a solid reputation - beware.
                            Also, there are HI public schools which are highly rated (such as Ahuimanu El.), and should be considered even before private schools.
                            Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
                            ~ ~
                            Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
                            Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
                            Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Public schools

                              I really like where DS is now...guess I will get familiar with some subjects he can work on during furlough days. I do hope good homework gets sent home for those days.

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