Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #91
    Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Originally posted by craig foo View Post
    So, from the beginning Superferry has been a corporate/military welfare case, and if allowed to service itself in Hawaii,
    Wow, a "Working class bloke" from Kauai knows everything about the financial future of this huge business venture. You got it all figured out Craig.

    So if you are moah smat then all the accountants and investors (who still could lose millions regardless of any govt. breaks), then just let them run their course like Seaflight and go out of business.

    I see the "protestors" in this fight like angry (financially struggling) juveniles (immature) who are throwing a tantrum and not sharing their toys, not because they care about the sanctity of their toys but because they are little and weak and frustrated and angry and so want to take that out on someone bigger (superferry)

    Comment


    • #92
      Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

      Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
      ...what ... are the chances that there would ever be any kind of investigation into how this deal came together, fell apart, whatever?
      Unless there is a lawsuit or a special session of the legislture, I doubt there will be an investigation. Sewage under the bridge...who's going to chase it?

      Lingle, the Maui/Kauai AOL leftovers and their Supernefarious gangsters should be hoping it all blows over as soon as possible and we all get back to the pre-Superferry days of relative lawfulness and forgiveness. Should they want a legislative special session or lawsuits, then perhaps we may see some investigative revelations.

      Comment


      • #93
        Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

        Originally posted by helen View Post
        Why? It wasn't the State DOT that was filing injunctions in Maui to stop it from docking there or it's workers jumping in the water on Kauai to prevent the ship from docking there.
        Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
        Was it the State DofT that told HSF they would not have to undergo an EA or EIS? If so, that's why.
        Yep. My understanding is that it was the St DOT that inked HISF into operation.
        Don't be mean,
        try to help.

        Comment


        • #94
          Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

          Originally posted by craig foo View Post
          Why should our State Democratic controlled legislature give a damn about Lingle and her wishes. She has proven herself to be a pawn of interests contrary to the well-being of too many of us.
          You go girlfriend. Ass right. We need the good ole days when the Plantation Asians controlled the House, the Senate and the Governor. The good old days when nevah have disagreements in politics cuz everybody was on the same team. The good ole days when Hawaii was being bulldozed over while making Plantation Asians rich. The good ole days when HGEA was almost all Japanese. The good ole dayz that gave state workers the best benefits in the entire USA. The good ole days when most Hawaiians were still too ignorant to even know they been ripped off and so joined the Plantation Asians in the Haole Boogieman parade. The good ole days when stuff got done by who you know, not what you know. Nevah have red tape cuz my couzins bruddahs sistah work in the permit office.

          Ahhhh, doze were da dayz.

          Comment


          • #95
            Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

            Originally posted by kamuelakea View Post
            You go girlfriend. Ass right. We need the good ole days when the Plantation Asians controlled the House, the Senate and the Governor. The good old days when nevah have disagreements in politics cuz everybody was on the same team. The good ole days when Hawaii was being bulldozed over while making Plantation Asians rich. The good ole days when HGEA was almost all Japanese. The good ole dayz that gave state workers the best benefits in the entire USA. The good ole days when most Hawaiians were still too ignorant to even know they been ripped off and so joined the Plantation Asians in the Haole Boogieman parade. The good ole days when stuff got done by who you know, not what you know. Nevah have red tape cuz my couzins bruddahs sistah work in the permit office.

            Ahhhh, doze were da dayz.
            Yeah, doze were da dayz when da politicians could trust that none of their constituents would meddle in their behind the scenes deals. Doze were da dayz when a politician would say, "Trust me" and by god, people trusted him!

            Man, am I glad doze days are gone!

            Miulang
            "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

            Comment


            • #96
              Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

              Originally posted by craig foo View Post
              Why should our State Democratic controlled legislature give a damn about Lingle and her wishes.

              There is always a give and take in government, Craig. The powers that be in the Legislature will assure the governor that they have the votes to enact legislation, in a special session, that can save the Superferry BUT there will be a price for the governor to pay. There are definite legslative initiatives that the governor will be expected to support during the next legislative session... you see, I scratch your back, you scratch mine. Politics at its finest.

              I'm on your side Craig but those that oppose the Superferry (You and I) will be on the losing team for this battle.

              Comment


              • #97
                Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

                Originally posted by Keanu View Post
                There is always a give and take in government, Craig. The powers that be in the Legislature will assure the governor that they have the votes to enact legislation, in a special session, that can save the Superferry BUT there will be a price for the governor to pay. There are definite legslative initiatives that the governor will be expected to support during the next legislative session... you see, I scratch your back, you scratch mine. Politics at its finest.

                I'm on your side Craig but those that oppose the Superferry (You and I) will be on the losing team for this battle.
                Payback's a bitch, isn't it? Like selling your soul to the Devil. Besides the HSF question, what are some of the thorny issues that will face the Legislature next session that the Democratically controlled Legislature could get the Governor to cave in to?

                I think the only way the Neighbor Island legislators (in the Senate, anyway) would agree to a special session is if some restrictions on the ferry's operation are also agreed to. And I'm not sure HSF is willing to make any compromises. From the very beginning with their management, it's always been "it's our way or no way at all". I suppose the willingness of Garibaldi to make concessions in order to run the ferry will be proof of the company's commitment to run a viable operation in Hawai'i. If he still pulls out of the deal after the Legislature has tried to save the company, who will look worse? The Legislature, the Governor, or HSF?

                Doesn't HSF have to start from scratch again with another application to the PUC for a certificate of conveyance, because when the operating agreement between the DOT was voided yesterday, didn't that also void the PUC license too? And this is where it starts getting tricky: In order for the PUC to grant a license, it requires that all federal and state environmental rules are adhered to. Since the HSC already determined in Aug. that the DOT was at fault for allowing HSF to proceed without a proactive EA, wouldn't that automatically make HSF fall under HRS343 all over again? And since the HSC determined that the exemption the DOT used last time was faulty, then a proactive EA is required for approval of the license, right?

                Miulang
                Last edited by Miulang; October 10, 2007, 05:40 PM.
                "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                Comment


                • #98
                  Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

                  Originally posted by craig foo View Post
                  All of the talk about a beautiful view from the ferry while traversing the channel is laughable, even if it were daytime, which it won't be if Superferry crosses the channel from Kauai to Oahu as they planned to do, arriving in Oahu from Kauai around midnight. Some view! Three hours of pitch black and 20 minutes of Honolulu lights...if all goes smoothly, of course....may as well sleep (somewhere?) in one's car until daylight a few hours later. Why keep relatives past midnight or pay for a room for the tailend of a day's worth of occupancy?
                  This much is true, it would appear that all the talk about scenic views seems to be for the Oahu to Maui route and it's return trip.

                  Originally posted by Keanu View Post
                  I'm on your side Craig but those that oppose the Superferry (You and I) will be on the losing team for this battle.
                  Are you opposed to it because of the concept of service it offers is flawed or because of how everything was done to get the service here?

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

                    Originally posted by zztype View Post
                    Yep. But the YB needs huge facilities on each island, much larger than HSF. They benefit from all the money the state spent to build their piers and improve the area to make it fit for them to do business there.

                    Why don't we ask YB to stop sailing while they complete an ES?

                    The airports require hundreds of millions of dollars a year to build, operate and maintain. Why don't we ask all the airlines to stop flying whenever we do a $40 million terminal upgrade or parking garage?

                    We don't.
                    Blaine: YB and the airport have both had EA/EIS done for some projects and not for others. This has already been shown in news stories. Both YB and the county airports were in service well before 1973 when the first HEPA laws were enacted. Since 1973, both entities have had EAs done on some improvements and not on others. The ones that didn't get the EAs were exempted by the DOT through their set of exemptions (each department of the State has a list of exemptions they can use). DOT tried to sneak HSF through using the same exemption, but the HSC said that that judgment was faulty because the DOT did not take into account what the potential secondary impacts of a minor modification to Kahului Harbor would be.

                    Judge Cardoza muddied the waters with his first ruling in 2005 when he affirmed the DOT's decision to exempt HSF from a proactive EA because Judge Cardoza was doing what the DOT did: he was only looking at who would be impacted by the minor modifications in Kahului Harbor alone, so he threw out the lawsuit brought by the Sierra Club and Maui Tomorrow, saying that they were not directly impacted by what happened in Kahului Harbor so they could not sue. Isaac Hall immediately filed an appeal with the HSC, but it took 2 years to finally make it to the court docket. The HSC in August said according to the statutes, any person or entity who believed they would suffer some impact could file a lawsuit. And that's where the trouble started.

                    I think HSF took a big gamble and lost. In 2005, when the first case was heard, they should have realized that they would need to do an EA eventually, and if they had begun that process at that time, they would have had it completed way before the ferry started service and none of this would have happened. They opted to save the cost of doing an EA (around $1 million, which is what the State is paying Belt Collins to do it now) for the more than $1 million it has probably cost them in lawyers' fees and loss of revenue with the boat tied up. When you undertake a project as costly as this one, why would you want to try to cut corners just to save a few bucks?

                    Miulang
                    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                    Comment


                    • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

                      Originally posted by Miulang View Post
                      Payback's a bitch, isn't it? Like selling your soul to the Devil. Besides the HSF question, what are some of the thorny issues that will face the Legislature next session that the Democratically controlled Legislature could get the Governor to cave in to?
                      No comment, next question!

                      I've already said too much.

                      Originally posted by Miulang View Post
                      I think the only way the Neighbor Island legislators (in the Senate, anyway) would agree to a special session is if some restrictions on the ferry's operation are also agreed to.
                      I think it's a forgone conslusion that most of the Neighbor Island legislators (outside of the Big Island) will oppose a special session and I think some of the Niehgbor Island reps will have some support from Oahu but Majority rules. When leadership makes a request, most of the troops fall in line.

                      Originally posted by Miulang View Post
                      From the very beginning with their management, it's always been "it's our way or no way at all". I suppose the willingness of Garibaldi to make concessions in order to run the ferry will be proof of the company's commitment to run a viable operation in Hawai'i. If he still pulls out of the deal after the Legislature has tried to save the company, who will look worse? The Legislature, the Governor, or HSF?

                      Doesn't HSF have to start from scratch again with another application to the PUC for a certificate of conveyance, because when the operating agreement between the DOT was voided yesterday, didn't that also void the PUC license too? And this is where it starts getting tricky: In order for the PUC to grant a license, it requires that all federal and state environmental rules are adhered to. Since the HSC already determined in Aug. that the DOT was at fault for allowing HSF to proceed without a proactive EA, wouldn't that automatically make HSF fall under HRS343 all over again? And since the HSC determined that the exemption the DOT used last time was faulty, then a proactive EA is required for approval of the license, right?

                      Miulang
                      Not if the Leg amends the statute. An amended statute that allows the Superferry to operate without the EA would render the Judge's decision irrelevent.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

                        Originally posted by Keanu View Post
                        No comment, next question!

                        I've already said too much.



                        I think it's a forgone conslusion that most of the Neighbor Island legislators will oppose a special session and I think some of the Niehgbor Island reps will have some support from Oahu but Majority rules. When leadership makes a request, most of the troops fall in line.



                        Not if the Leg amends the statute. An amended statute that allows the Superferry to operate without the EA would render the Judge's decision irrelevent.
                        But you also know that Maui Tomorrow and the Sierra Club are not going to let it end there. As in a chess game, there will be another appeal. Would it go back to the HSC, or could it go higher than that, like to the 9th Circuit in SF?

                        If the Legislature rewrote the law and allowed HSF to be exempted, wouldn't that send a dangerous signal to the business community? And I mean in a positive (for big businesses, anyway) way that if you play hardball, the Legislature will keel over and give you what you want? Is that why all the legislators are kinda wishy washy about going into special session?

                        Miulang
                        Last edited by Miulang; October 10, 2007, 06:15 PM.
                        "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                        Comment


                        • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

                          By any chance does the SuperFerry have to pay back the State of Hawaii for a loan? If so then a Special Session could make it so that the SuperFerry can delay paying back the state during the time the EA is being done. This is of couse assuming the SuperFerry is expected to stay for the long term and not pull out in a couple of months.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

                            Originally posted by Miulang View Post
                            But you also know that Maui Tomorrow and the Sierra Club are not going to let it end there. As in a chess game, there will be another appeal. Would it go back to the HSC, or could it go higher than that, like to the 9th Circuit in SF?

                            If the Legislature rewrote the law and allowed HSF to be exempted, wouldn't that send a dangerous signal to the business community? And I mean in a positive (for big businesses, anyway) way that if you play hardball, the Legislature will keel over and give you what you want? Is that why all the legislators are kinda wishy washy about going into special session?

                            Miulang
                            If this were a Chess game, the Sierra Club and its allies would be playing without their queen and a bishop... only a matter of time before the King is cornered...checkmate. Superferry wins.

                            Originally posted by Miulang View Post
                            If the Legislature rewrote the law and allowed HSF to be exempted, wouldn't that send a dangerous signal to the business community? And I mean in a positive (for big businesses, anyway) way that if you play hardball, the Legislature will keel over and give you what you want? Is that why all the legislators are kinda wishy washy about going into special session?
                            Miulang
                            I think this is an isolated issue so no, I don't think convening a special session on this issue sets a precedent or dangerous signal to other businesses. This is just cleanup work, and a brilliant opportunity for the powers that be at the Capitol to take the bull by its horns.
                            Last edited by Keanu; October 10, 2007, 06:31 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

                              Originally posted by craig foo View Post
                              Working class blokes like myself on Kauai are sure not going to be able to take more than a few days off from work to go by way of Superferry to Oahu, or to Maui via Oahu, or to Hawaii Island via Oahu. A round trip with personal vehicle would waste two days just preparing for, and doing transit on the ferry...and that would be if everything went smoothly!
                              eric and i are definitely working class. unless we bought used (maybe a 90s LS400), even with the friend/family discount we could get since we have family working for servco, we wouldn't be able to afford even a lexus IS, much less a more expensive benz or beamer.

                              that said, we did a cost comparo back in july and i posted our findings here. note that superferry's fares at the time were undiscounted:

                              eric and i did a quick compare of travelling to maui in september from a thursday to tuesday and found that if we were to fly go! on the $39 fare and grab the el cheapo econ car (we're talking chevy aveo sized car) on enterprise rental, we'd save about $150 versus riding the superferry and bringing eric's titan.

                              if we upgraded to a full-sized car with enterprise, we'd save about $60.
                              paying $150 more to drive the truck for five days on maui would have been worth it. last year, when we went to maui for a similar holiday, we rented a pontiac vibe. it sucked dookie on a stick, esp when negotiating the road to hana. if i remember correctly, if we were to take the mini cooper instead of the titan, the price difference would be even smaller. how fun it would have been to take a cooper to hana--that would have been a ride in itself!

                              of course, how long the $39 fares will last is anyone's guess. if go! goes, then definitely, for a trip as i described above, superferry would have been much more affordable compared to renting a an economy car plus paying the kind of fares aloha and hawaiian were charging pre-go! (you know, the kind of fares they'll probably charge if and when go! is gone).

                              *thumbs down*

                              moreover, i don't agree that we'd waste two days just planning/organizing our vehicle to take it on the superferry. to me, it takes more time to pack our snorkel and/or camping gear neatly in luggage so that it doesn't sully our clothes while making sure our total luggage doesn't weigh more than the limit to take on the plane versus just throwing it in our trunk or truck cab.

                              of course, you're on kauai; we're on oahu. *shrug*

                              by the way, on our last trip, the few times it came up that we were from honolulu, mauians were always saying, "right on!" never once did we feel unwelcome or unwanted. that's why i'm so saddened at all the anti-oahuan vitriol some neighbor island folk have spouted.
                              superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

                              "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

                              nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

                              Comment


                              • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

                                Uh oh...looks the the Gov. is preparing her unified command on Kaua'i to go beyond mano a mano with the protestors on Kaua'i. Ian Lind's blog posted this very interesting little requisition from the DOT Harbors Div. for all kinds of riot gear. The req was dated 9-18-2007 and was for "helmets, face shields, body shields, protective body equipment, protective gas mask, etc."

                                Combine this with pictures of a lot of CG zodiacs being hidden behind a bunch of cargo containers at Nawiliwili Harbor and it sounds more like the Gov. is planning for a riot like the one that disrupted Seattle during the WTC meeting a few years ago.

                                Miulang
                                "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X