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Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

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  • Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

    Leo Lakio: ok, this is part of my argument *g* and I heard you say you support your gay friends in the battle to get married if they want to so this is not me attacking you but just exploring the conversation further. Also, this is not about making everyone get married but about the right to choose whether to get married. You have the freedom to choose not to get married because other people already fought to establish that it's a constitutional right for you to be allowed to marry someone of another race but no one is required to get married and certainly unmarried people can live happy lives. But the quality of life question comes in when one considers what is your quality of life if the majority deems you to be less than what they are and believes it is correct to treat you so?

    In the US, our constitutional rights are essentially our fundamental human rights. Why did we ban interracial marriages to begin with? Because it was the then prevailing belief that people of other races, and particularly african americans, were either not fully human (http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5116) or were "less than" other people, primarily caucasians. The banning of marriages itself was a literal reinforcement that people of minority races were not entitled to fair and equal treatment and was not an isolated incidence of discrimination because it was the result of a prevailing attitude that discrimination based on race was not just acceptable but correct. Bible quotations were used to justify it and all. Similarly with same sex marriage. It's a concrete manifestation of a belief that it is not just acceptable but it is correct to treat homosexuals as not equal to heterosexuals. It's not just marriages but things like Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

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    • Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

      I'm against all of it. It should be none of government's business to say whether people are married or to grant special privileges (or exact penalties) associated with marriage. If government will just get out of the business of imposing the social or moral preferences of a majority, then the question of whether it imposes them fairly will not arise.
      Greg

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      • Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

        Originally posted by GregLee View Post
        I'm against all of it. It should be none of government's business to say whether people are married or to grant special privileges (or exact penalties) associated with marriage. If government will just get out of the business of imposing the social or moral preferences of a majority, then the question of whether it imposes them fairly will not arise.
        Greg, spoken like a true conservative, and on this issue I am conservative too. I think the governement (and Christian liberals who think government should be involved in people's lives) should butt out of this issue. If consenting adults of the age of majority want to get married, let 'em. It's not my cup of tea, but whatever, live and let live.
        Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

        People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

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        • Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

          To me, it shouldn't make any difference. A person who has a surgical/physical sex change is deemed by law, a person of the gender of change, and can marry a person of his/her former gender. I fail to see any difference. If a person is born male or female, does surgically/physically changing that gender make any difference as to who that person is????? The idea is if you have a gay couple, why does one have to surgically/physically change genders in order to marry? It simply makes no sense to me. JMHO.

          Nobu

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          • Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

            Originally posted by GregLee View Post
            I'm against all of it. It should be none of government's business to say whether people are married or to grant special privileges (or exact penalties) associated with marriage. If government will just get out of the business of imposing the social or moral preferences of a majority, then the question of whether it imposes them fairly will not arise.
            That is what I have been saying since I started this thread. I’m glad finally someone besides me has come to this conclusion.
            Originally posted by matapule View Post
            Greg, spoken like a true conservative, and on this issue I am conservative too. I think the governement (and Christian liberals who think government should be involved in people's lives) should butt out of this issue.
            Bravo, matapule. We’ll make a Libertarian of you yet.

            We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

            — U.S. President Bill Clinton
            USA TODAY, page 2A
            11 March 1993

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            • Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

              Originally posted by TuNnL View Post
              Bravo, matapule. We’ll make a Libertarian of you yet.
              Gag on a Tea Bag? No way, Jose. I'm Green Party. (see little emoticon all green!)

              Save the Polynesians.
              Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

              People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

              Comment


              • Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

                Originally posted by Adri View Post
                Same sex marriage is on AI's agenda and not just with regard to America but world wide. Per AI, "Civil marriage between individuals of the same-sex is an issue in which fundamental human rights are at stake. Amnesty International believes that the denial of equal civil recognition of same-sex relationships prevents many people from accessing a range of other rights, such as rights to housing and social security, and stigmatizes those relationships in ways that can fuel discrimination and other human rights abuses against people based on their sexual orientation or gender identity."
                Thanks for that, Adri - this is certainly one time when I am very glad to stand corrected.

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                • Civil Unions Bill Passes Again

                  Originally posted by matapule View Post
                  Greg, spoken like a true conservative, and on this issue I am conservative too. I think the governement (and Christian liberals who think government should be involved in people's lives) should butt out of this issue.
                  Originally posted by TuNnL View Post
                  Bravo, matapule. We’ll make a Libertarian of you yet.
                  Originally posted by matapule View Post
                  Gag on a Tea Bag? No way, Jose. I'm Green Party. (see little emoticon all green!)
                  Hmmm... I never heard of the Green Party being anything other than an environmental fringe of the liberal left supporting the nanny state just as much as any other socialist democrat. But I suppose it’s somehow connected to “butting out of the issue” in a strange matapuletian way.

                  Be that as it may, it looks like civil union backers finally came to their senses and ensured that both same-sex couples as well as heterosexual couples can take advantage of this new law. Though it will likely cost taxpayers a pretty penny, let’s hope that it will help the tourism industry, as advocates claim it will. Being that five other states and Washington, D.C. already have full-blown same sex marriage, I’m not holding my breath.

                  Civil unions bill wins final approval; awaits governor’s signature

                  By B.J. Reyes

                  POSTED: 12:40 p.m. HST, Feb 16, 2011

                  The Hawai‘i Senate took its final step in clearing the way to grant same-sex couples virtually the same rights and privileges of traditional marriage, giving approval today to a bill legalizing civil unions.

                  Senate Bill 232 was approved by a 18-5 vote.

                  We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

                  — U.S. President Bill Clinton
                  USA TODAY, page 2A
                  11 March 1993

                  Comment


                  • Re: Civil Unions Bill Passes Again

                    Originally posted by TuNnL View Post
                    Be that as it may, it looks like civil union backers finally came to their senses and ensured that both same-sex couples as well as heterosexual couples can take advantage of this new law. Though it will likely cost taxpayers a pretty penny, let’s hope that it will help the tourism industry, as advocates claim it will. Being that five other states and Washington, D.C. already have full-blown same sex marriage, I’m not holding my breath.
                    I'm not holding mine, either. Why would any out-of-state LBGT couple come to Hawaii as tourists, just to apply for a civil union license? If their home state won't recognize it, then they won't derive any actual benefits. The whole purpose of the civil union legislation was to allow couples access to most of the rights/benefits that married couples enjoy,.... but without the state recognizing them as being "married."

                    At least in states where gay marriage is premitted, out-of-state visitors would have a legal marriage certificate to take home as a souvenir, even if that certificate is not valid in their home state. Gay couples won't be able to do that by coming to Hawaii.
                    This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

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                    • Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

                      I think the important message here is that hawaii RESIDENTS get to enjoy the benefits of civil unions. why should we pass laws that benefit non residents. why create a cottage industry for civil unions? its not about money it about rights. Right? Now our state residents have won a victory for state residents. other states can take care of there own, or not.
                      the bigger the government the smaller the citizen.

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                      • Re: Civil Unions Bill Passes Again

                        Originally posted by TuNnL View Post
                        Hmmm... I never heard of the Green Party being anything other than an environmental fringe of the liberal left supporting the nanny state just as much as any other socialist democrat.
                        You ain't heard much!
                        Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                        People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

                        Comment


                        • Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

                          Why is this issue still being discussed? it's a done deal. The bill will be signed into law next week and take effect on 01/01/12.
                          "Democracy is the only system that persists in asking the powers that be whether they are the powers that ought to be."
                          – Sydney J. Harris

                          Comment


                          • Re: Civil Unions Bill Passes Again

                            Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
                            At least in states where gay marriage is premitted, out-of-state visitors would have a legal marriage certificate to take home as a souvenir, even if that certificate is not valid in their home state. Gay couples won't be able to do that by coming to Hawaii.
                            Hmm... apparently advocates aren’t swayed by that argument:

                            Civil unions to ‘bring more people’ here

                            Operators of isle firms that host gay people say the new law will attract new clients


                            By Mark Niesse
                            Associated Press

                            ...The culturally diverse islands are already a welcoming place for gay tourists, including some who seek informal partnership ceremonies.

                            With civil unions, those ceremonies would come with a certificate valid in other states with civil unions or same-sex marriage, depending on their local laws. Five states and the District of Columbia permit same-sex marriage...

                            We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

                            — U.S. President Bill Clinton
                            USA TODAY, page 2A
                            11 March 1993

                            Comment


                            • Re: Civil Unions Bill Passes Again

                              Originally posted by TuNnL View Post
                              Hmm... apparently advocates aren’t swayed by that argument:
                              Hmmm, did you bother reading your own article, Tunnl?

                              But the number of couples seeking civil unions may be somewhat modest, according to one study. Between 569 and 1,285 same-sex couples will enter civil unions in the first four years that registration is available, the Williams Institute on Sexual Orientation Law and Public Policy at UCLA estimated last June.
                              That UCLA study doesn't exactly paint a picture of gay tourism in Hawaii booming as a result of the newly passed legislation.

                              In the meantime, the folks touting a rosy picture are, who? A gay wedding planner, a general manager of a gay vacation resort, and the president of the Hawaii tourism authority.

                              Me thinks Tunnl needs to differentiate between the findings of an academic study vs. mere wishful thinking from money hungry businesspeople.
                              This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Should Civil Unions Be Legalized?

                                ...and of course, you all heard that New York state has legalized same-sex marriage; passed by a GOP-led State Senate. It would not have passed, had four Republicans not voted for the measure (while one Democrat voted against), which shows that we cannot simply demonize all Conservatives with our broad brushes.

                                And now, a respectful moment of silence for opponents of said measure, who have lost nothing by its passage.

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