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  #201  
Old October 4th, 2006, 08:56 PM
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
just curious, is the military contract a done deal? if so, anyone know how much is it worth?
I haven't heard anything officially.But it wouldn't surprise me that the military
contracts with HSF to ferry their equipment to Kawaihae.
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  #202  
Old October 5th, 2006, 01:42 AM
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konaguy View Post
Yeah, you guys in Hilo should have it. For reasons I've already mentioned
Hilo is ready for HSF right now. I have my doubts Kawaihae will ever be
ready. Plus Hilo has better roads to handle the traffic influx from HSF.
Unfortunately the military will probably ace us all out on this one .
One thing with the extensions heading up into Kaumana onto Saddle Road there may be a reason for HSF coming to Hilo.
  #203  
Old October 5th, 2006, 01:56 AM
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

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Originally Posted by craigwatanabe View Post
One thing with the extensions heading up into Kaumana onto Saddle Road there may be a reason for HSF coming to Hilo.
Absolutely, Hilo has the roads and harbor infrastructure. Its just unfornate
for us in West Hawaii, with poorer roads and harbor infrastructure that HSF
wants to service Kawaihae.

One facet to this situation. The roadway infrastructure in Kawaihae and the
surrounding area will improve. It is question of when, as there is a proposed
roadway that would go from Mud Lane to Waimea Airport to Kawaihae Harbor.
The problem is DHHL is holding up the Mud Lane to Waimea Airport portion.
There may be burials in the Waimea Airport to Kawaihae Harbor portion.
If things go all right, it may be another 6 years before this road begins construction.
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  #204  
Old October 5th, 2006, 12:22 PM
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

I had always thought Hilo made more sense than Kawaihae on several levels, from calmer seas to infrastructure, but it seems clear that Hawaii Superferry feels that extending the route around to the east side of the Big Island would add way too much travel time, and thereby probably cancel out other daily trips.

Kawaihae and the Kona side certainly are as strong a draw for interisland visitors as Hilo, if not moreso, and their infrastructure shortcomings are a painful reality independentof the expected (but overall minor) additional impact Superferry passengers would bring. It'd be nice if its arrival prompts upgrades at the port and elsewhere on the west side.

When we visit the Big Island, we often drive up to Hawi/Kapaau, so Kawaihae works just fine for us!
  #205  
Old October 23rd, 2006, 01:49 AM
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Default Superferry

Aloha to all those interested in the Hawaii Superferry. I'm new to this site and want to contribute. I've been an active proponent of obtaining an Environmental Impact Study (EIS) since the onset of the Superferry announcement and feel equiped to answer just about any question you have on the subject. If I do not know the answer that you seek, I will do my best to find it. I read so much misinformation about this issue and I think that I can offer some solid facts. Feel free to write and let's open up this discussion again. In my opinion this is not a done deal. However we all need to be informed and active to get what we want, no matter which "side" we are on.
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  #206  
Old October 23rd, 2006, 02:40 AM
damontucker damontucker is offline
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Default Re: Superferry

try over here
http://www.hawaiithreads.com/showthr...ght=superferry

Been well discussed...

I'm for the superferry!
  #207  
Old October 24th, 2006, 06:01 PM
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

Many folks from Honolulu are in favor of the Superferry because they see it as a way to visit the neighbor islands with their vehicles. But few have really taken into consideration the impact that they will have on the islands they are visiting and what the actual costs will be to get there. The pricing for the Superferry was done two years ago and with increases in fuel there will be a huge increase over the charges that the Superferry originally quoted. Also did you know that a jet uses 500 gallons of fuel to travel between Kauai and Honolulu, while the projected consumption for the Superferry is 5943 gallons of marine diesel fuel.

Before you throw your weight in favor of the Superferry, dig a little deeper and find out the facts. They will surprise you.
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  #208  
Old October 24th, 2006, 06:59 PM
joshuatree joshuatree is offline
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by David H Dinner View Post
Many folks from Honolulu are in favor of the Superferry because they see it as a way to visit the neighbor islands with their vehicles. But few have really taken into consideration the impact that they will have on the islands they are visiting and what the actual costs will be to get there. The pricing for the Superferry was done two years ago and with increases in fuel there will be a huge increase over the charges that the Superferry originally quoted. Also did you know that a jet uses 500 gallons of fuel to travel between Kauai and Honolulu, while the projected consumption for the Superferry is 5943 gallons of marine diesel fuel.

Before you throw your weight in favor of the Superferry, dig a little deeper and find out the facts. They will surprise you.

Well, people from the neighbor islands can also visit Oahu with their vehicles. It's a two way operation.

As for fuel consumption, do you have any links? I wouldn't be surprised that the SF will consume more fuel for the same trip BUT you also have to compare that with how much more cargo SF can carry versus a jet. Then you can get meaningful statistics.
  #209  
Old October 24th, 2006, 07:28 PM
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

Never mind. I posted something and then decided to remove it. As Maddie likes to say: nothing here to see. Move along.
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Last edited by LikaNui; October 24th, 2006 at 07:40 PM.
  #210  
Old October 25th, 2006, 08:58 PM
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Default "It ain't over until it's over..."

According to today's Maui News, the judge presiding over the suit by 3 local groups to require an EIS for the Superferry may reconsider his ruling now that additional information has surfaced. Because the County also owns significant assets in the Kahului Harbor area, the judge is also allowing the County to join the suit requesting an EIS.

Quote:
Waving a copy of the Aug. 22 edition of The Maui News, he [Judge August] asked Wynhoff about a map that showed how the Harbors Division plans to help Young Brothers continue to move less-than-containerload (LCL) shipments through Pier 2. The map showed changes to accommodate Superferry traffic that would touch Kaahumanu Avenue at two places.

August said he was “confused” because documents submitted to him did not show any changes to the “footprint” of the harbor. In particular, the documents submitted to the court don’t show changes likely to create secondary impacts on traffic on “a main artery.”

...The news story, he said, seemed to show that the state was acquiring new property from Alexander & Baldwin (the Old Kahului Store and the Kahului Railroad building) and planning “development” beyond the boundary of the harbor.

Wynhoff said he did not know of any development, although he acknowledged that use of public money to buy land would be a “trigger” for an environmental review.

He said, however, that as far as he knew, those plans were part of the 2030 master plan, for which a review process is to get under way this month.
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  #211  
Old October 25th, 2006, 09:05 PM
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

HSF was going to be using Pier 1 at Kawaihae for their service to the Big Island.
The problem is that pier will probably have to be completely rebuilt due to
the recent earthquake.

link
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  #212  
Old October 26th, 2006, 05:45 PM
gentlewave gentlewave is offline
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

The Superferry folks have played it pretty smart by appealing to our desire to go from Island to Island cheaply and easily and what is becoming more and more evident is that it will be neither cheap or easy. The site with the most truthful information that I have seen is www.superferryimpact.com.

Anyway, what is really interesting is how deceitful these people have been by finessing this through the state legislature. A lot of money must be changing hands. Is it possible that the entire project is nothing more than a setup to create a vehicle for the Stryker Brigade and that it will not succeed as a ferry line and that the developers will clear literally millions from the failure from Federal and State backing? I heard Terry Ohalloran deny that that they have an agreement with the military and yet I saw that reference in the original agreement with the State. It is beginning to seem that the fates are against them, with the recent court decisions and the earthquake damage to the harbor at Kawaihai. What could be next if they forge ahead? Crime does not pay.
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Last edited by gentlewave; October 26th, 2006 at 05:46 PM. Reason: to remove a phrase
  #213  
Old October 27th, 2006, 01:26 AM
joshuatree joshuatree is offline
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

Hi gentlewave, I took a look at the link you provided. I won't deny that pro-ferry websites have nice marketing spins to promote the ferry but the anti-ferry website you've listed is just as bad with the marketing spins. Not exactly truthful in my opinion. Some points I like to make regarding the contents of the site.

Cost of Travel
- I don't know where the site got $740 per metric ton of marine diesel fuel for Honolulu. I couldn't find anything online. At Bunkerworld, I found the price in LA is about $300 per metric ton. There's no way the fuel is more than double.

- $120 to bring your car roundtrip may be a few days worth of car rental if you're renting econo but what if you want to rent a convertible? It's about that price for a day.

Eco-Friendly Design
- The 5.15 gallons per passenger mile on the SF vs 2.4 gallons on an airplane is distorted. On an interisland plane, the majority of the available cabin space is devoted to passengers. On the SF, only 1 out of 3 main decks is for passengers. What if all 3 decks were meant for passengers? And what if each deck was designed to cram as many people in like an airplane cabin? The gallons per passenger mile on the SF will be far less than on an airplane.

Invasive Species
- The one hour time frame is for loading and unloading. Check-in is done before this process. How much inspection goes into transporting vehicles by barges these days?

Safety and Security
- Drugs and stolen property. You've got to be kidding with this argument. It happens already without the SF. You don't think stolen property can be tranpsorted away on a plane? And why can't police dogs sniff out drugs on the SF as opposed to at the airport?

Whale and Marine Mammal Safety
- I don't disagree with this one but I don't see why SF is being singled out. There are plenty of speedboats that can do 37 knots out there. Alaska has a 13 knot speed limit during the summers. Maybe Hawaii needs to implement one but that's not SF's fault. Also, SF has chosen alternate routes during whale migration periods. Over half of whale collisions with ships in Hawaii have involved whale sighting tours. Why aren't those folks being shut down?

H-4 Concept
- What's with the anti-Honolulu pitch? For a state that prides itself in Aloha, it sure sounds like a like of hostility from one island to the other. If this recent earthquake has shown, another form of link between the islands via water is a good thing in case it's ever needed under disaster situations.

EIS
- A US federal judge denied a request for an EIS. Don't know what the latest is but I don't understand why no one fought tooth and nail for the cruise ships to do any EIS's when they wanted to run their service.

I'm not saying SF's service doesn't bring in a set of issues that require consideration but I'm against trying to shut SF down. People say there's some sort of evil conspiracy with the gov't officials and businesses with the SF but I say there's just as much conspiracy on the other end. People and businesses that stand to lose with the introduction of the SF such as car rental companies, airlines, interisle shipping, taxis.
  #214  
Old January 7th, 2007, 03:10 PM
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

It's not over until it's over...with a new Legislative session, there are plans afoot by Neighbor Island legislators to use every tool at their disposal to get EISs from Superferry before it's allowed to proceed, because none of the Year 2025 Master Plans of the Counties, at the time they were drawn up, envisioned having a ferry service that would compete for existing harbor resources. For Maui, it might mean pushing back the launch date from July to a later date.

Of course, the Superferry folks have said all along that if they can't start service by July to Maui, that they wouldn't launch at all. I think both sides of the issue are now playing chicken and it'll be interesting to see who flinches and cries "uncle" first. However, if the Stryker Brigade ends up being stationed on CONUS, would Superferry still find it economically feasible to start their service?

Quote:
Four influential Neighbor Island state senators, who believe Hawai'i Superferry has not convincingly explained its possible effect on the Islands, will try to require an environmental impact statement before the scheduled launch of ferry service between O'ahu, Maui and Kaua'i in July.

The senators want a more thorough review of the Superferry even if it means delaying the launch. Other attempts to force an environmental impact statement have failed, and some who favor the Superferry believe the senators are playing to vocal activists who oppose the project on the Neighbor Islands.

But, regardless of whether the senators are successful, the potential for critical hearings at the Legislature could muddy the Superferry's publicity campaign leading up to its planned debut. "I think we are going to use every tool available to us," said state Sen. J. Kalani English, D-6th (E. Maui, Moloka'i, Lana'i), the chairman of the Senate Transportation and International Affairs Committee.
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  #215  
Old January 7th, 2007, 04:03 PM
joshuatree joshuatree is offline
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
However, if the Stryker Brigade ends up being stationed on CONUS, would Superferry still find it economically feasible to start their service?
With the barrel of oil dropping lately, it's possible to be economically feasible. I would say only the insiders at SF will know this, but if they planned their business around a contract to shuttle Strykers, then they are in trouble. If they had only included the Strykers as a bonus, then no problem. Also, they can always change certain variables to compensate. One is if they permitted companies to have their drivers simply drive the truck onto the ship and then have another driver pick it up at the destination, I know that would increase cargo traffic.

I certainly wouldn't want to see them fold before things even start because they would mean a write off on the ships and barges, another waste of taxpayer money. Plus I like to see how it will play out vs the airlines.
  #216  
Old January 7th, 2007, 07:34 PM
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
With the barrel of oil dropping lately, it's possible to be economically feasible. I would say only the insiders at SF will know this, but if they planned their business around a contract to shuttle Strykers, then they are in trouble. If they had only included the Strykers as a bonus, then no problem. Also, they can always change certain variables to compensate. One is if they permitted companies to have their drivers simply drive the truck onto the ship and then have another driver pick it up at the destination, I know that would increase cargo traffic.

I certainly wouldn't want to see them fold before things even start because they would mean a write off on the ships and barges, another waste of taxpayer money. Plus I like to see how it will play out vs the airlines.
If they tried to carry more cargo (which they have said in the past they are not willing to do), then Young Bros would most certainly raise a stink, especially on Maui, where YB had to give up lots of their space to accommodate Superferry at Kahului Harbor. And Superferry also stated that drivers had to accompany the trucks, and I don't think that point would be negotiable in their eyes. Given who the angel investors are, my guess is that they were counting heavily both on State subsidies and DoD contracts.

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  #217  
Old January 7th, 2007, 09:54 PM
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
If they tried to (...) I don't think that (...) my guess is (...)
I've said it before, Miulang -- guesses and speculation are most definitely not convincing arguments.
Not even close.
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  #218  
Old January 7th, 2007, 10:02 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by LikaNui View Post
I've said it before, Miulang -- guesses and speculation are most definitely not convincing arguments.
Not even close.
Then I guess we'll just have to wait and see, won't we Lika? The Chairman of the Board (and principal investor) of Superferry has a pretty bio on the official Superferry site, but here is some of the "other" stuff he is associated with. My question is, does a leopard change his spots? Is he aiming to be the next Carlyle Company? Some of the other affiliations which were conveniently left off his Superferry bio: signatory of the Project for a New American Century, Committee on the Present Danger, the Heritage Foundation, and member of the 9/11 Commission.

Quote:
Former Secretary of the Navy John Lehman served as a member of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, the "independent, bipartisan commission" that was "chartered to prepare a full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, including preparedness for and the immediate response to the attacks." (16) As was often apparent during the committee hearings, Lehman is a right-wing ideologue and militarist, who as a commissioner was the most dependable supporter of the Bush administration.

During his four decades in government and in the military-industrial complex, Lehman has established himself as a threat escalator who has ignored the facts and resorted to fear-mongering and alarmism in the interest of bolstering military spending and increasing U.S. military overseas operations to raise alarms about threats to U.S. national security. In the late 1970s, Lehman joined the Committee on the Present Danger, a coalition of liberal hawks, neoconservatives, and militarists who called for an end to the politics of détente and a major increase in the U.S. military budget. The Committee on the Present Danger relied on the threat assessments of Team B, an independent group of militarists who disputed the CIA's National Intelligence Estimates, which were regarded as being naïve with regard to Soviet imperial ambitions and imminent threats to U.S. national security.

...Lehman, an aggressive proponent of an expanded military-including his goal of having the Navy deploy 600 ships, made numerous enemies within the Reagan administration because of his uncompromising positions. Although serving as deputy director of the arms control agency and representing the U.S. government in critical arms control negotiations, Lehman was a critic of international arms control agreements that restricted U.S. military build-ups and nuclear weapons options.

Under pressure, he resigned his post in the Reagan administration in 1987, and took a job as managing director of Paine Weber. (15) Lehman is the chairman of J.F. Lehman & Co., an investment firm specializing in aerospace, weapons, and marine sectors. The company has a majority or controlling interest in McCormick Selph, Inc., which manufactures systems and components for military aircraft and tactical missiles, and in Accudyne Corporation, which manufactures marine munitions for the U.S. military. Lehman is also chairman of OAO Technology Solutions, which describes itself as "a subcontractor to global outsourcers." (23)'

Lehman, a former member of the Committee on the Present Danger, also sits on the board of the Center for Security Policy and is a signatory for the Project for the New American Century. (7) (8) (10) Lehman has also been associated with other right-wing or conservative organizations, including Foreign Policy Research Institute, Heritage Foundation, and Center for Strategic and International Studies. (15) Lehman's ties to the right wing date back to his student days when he was a member of the Intercollegiate Studies Institute (ISI), which was founded in 1952 by William Buckley. As a graduate student at Georgetown University, Lehman roomed with Edwin Feulner, another ISI member, who became the president of the Heritage Foundation.

Miulang

P.S. John Lehman is also on the Board of Ball Company, one of whose 2 subsidiaries is Ball Aerospace:
Quote:
Popularly known in the aerospace industry as "Ball Aerospace," the company designs and manufactures spacecraft, components and instruments for national defense, civil space and commercial space applications. The company began building pointing controls for military rockets in 1956, and later won a contract to build one of NASA’s first spacecraft, the Orbiting Solar Observatory. Over the years, the company has been responsible for numerous technological and scientific ‘firsts’ and now acts as a technology innovator for important national missions.

Ball Aerospace also has many other products and services for the aerospace industry, including lubricants, optical systems, star trackers and antennas. As a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Ball Corp., Ball Aerospace was cited in 2005 as the 99th largest defense contractor in the world.[1] Ball Corp. celebrated its 125th anniversary in 2005, and Ball Aerospace is celebrating its 50th anniversary during 2006. Both parent and subsidiary headquarters are co-located in Broomfield, Colorado.

Last edited by Miulang; January 7th, 2007 at 10:47 PM.
  #219  
Old January 7th, 2007, 11:44 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Hawai'i Superferry - Chapter 3

And then there's the vexing problem of possible depleted uranium contamination if Superferry is used to transport Stryker vehicles and other equipmentto and from Honolulu:

Quote:
The Stryker is a eight wheeled assault platform that can carry a 105mm cannon or the 25mm Bushmaster machine gun. Both can fire Depleted Uranium (DU) rounds. So can the M113 Armored Personnel Carrier, the Apache Attack Helicopter and the Cobra Gunship Helicopter. The Superferry is designed to carry them all.

DU, in a projectile, does two things. It delivers a huge kinetic impact of white hot uranium to a target. This destroys the target. It also conveniently gets rid of a wad of “low level” radioactive waste from an atomic power plant or weapons program; they have no place to put the stuff. As such, DU munitions are an environmental impact that keeps on giving and giving.

Why worry about Depleted Uranium? Just ask any Gulf War Veteran. The contamination of the modern battlefield with radioactive depleted uranium 238 is an intractable problem with a 4.5 billion year half-life. Dating back to 1991, tens of thousands of US veterans claim they have been permanently disabled by widespread use of these toxic munitions in Iraq.

The military denies that it has used DU munitions in Hawaii, but DU weapons debris has been discovered at Schofield Barracks and documented by the Associated Press. Will these weapons ever be fired on other islands?

The Superferry is not just a means for Oahu residents to have a day at the beach on Kauai It is also a cheap way to deliver military attack systems throughout the Pacific Theater. The Superferry is part of the Navy’s Westpac Express program.

The builder of the Hawaiian Superferry is Austal USA. They have constructed other Westpac Express ships that are virtually identical to the Hawaiian Superferry conforming to the same military specs. They are used to ferry US Marines, and their equipment, between Okinawa and other Japanese islands. Is any of that cargo ever contaminated with DU? Will the Superferry be?

...Pacific Business News reported on March 26, 2005, that with Lehman’s expertise, the Superferry plans to operate a Westpac Express, essentially to carry military equipment and ferry vehicles from Oahu to the Big Island on a daily basis. Lehman told PBN that “This logistical plan will make it easier for soldiers to train when the Stryker Brigade comes to Hawaii. The brigade will be stationed on Oahu and conduct training exercises on the Big Island.”

The Superferry is intended to transport vehicles and equipment that could be contaminated with DU dust in the field. After battle simulations on the Big Island, will this cargo be inspected for traces of depleted uranium before it is loaded onto the Superferry? Will the Superferry itself be inspected for DU after carrying military shipments?

It seems prudent to examine the possibility of the spread of DU contamination throughout the Hawaiian islands by battlefield equipment transported on the Superferry.
Miulang

Specs for the "WestPac Express" v. "Hawai'i Superferry", both being built by Austal USA.

Last edited by Miulang; January 8th, 2007 at 12:00 AM.
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