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  • #31
    Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

    Originally posted by Kaonohi View Post
    Fo real?

    Oh wow, dakine luna say I stay too, uh, nevah enuf talk!
    Mus be portagee websight!
    Foa shua Portagee website if need moa den 10 words so I jass going keep wala'au till nomo room anden I stay go get in pilikia cuz I stay so Portagee. So dea.
    Aloha,
    Mokihana

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    • #32
      Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

      Originally posted by cyleet99 View Post
      K den. I try. Dis da edumicatanil chred. Li'dat?
      shoots, shegoya? edumatinal thread lol... k-den, da buggah wen go shaks on da kine, yanoya?
      "MahAloHawaii"
      xbox gamertag Top Shotta Fry

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

        Originally posted by Barry View Post
        Sorry fellers and felleresses,,,,,, I don't understand that Pidgeon stuff.
        think li dis... when a mommy (and her twin) and a daddy language come togedda they make "manage-a-twa" aka a PIDGIN language... is a language derived from people of various backgrounds and languages (like 3 or more) and coming together into one common language fo make mo betta fo understand each otha... a creolean language is the baby of the language. ass why hawaii creole is just referred to as "pidgin"... calling it pidgin IS SPEAKING PIDGIN technically.

        BTW, i AM trying fo make revive the 'chred, dis, li dat... who's on baord!!!???
        "MahAloHawaii"
        xbox gamertag Top Shotta Fry

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

          Originally posted by dakamaainahaole View Post
          ... a PIDGIN language... is a language derived from people of various backgrounds and languages (like 3 or more) and coming together into one common language fo make mo betta fo understand each otha... a creolean language is the baby of the language. ass why hawaii creole is just referred to as "pidgin"... calling it pidgin IS SPEAKING PIDGIN technically.
          I don't know much about pidgin myself, not being local, but I thought I'd just follow this up, briefly, as a sort of memorial to Carol Odo, who was local, born on Kauai and went to school here on Oahu. She got her doctorate in linguistics at UH in the 70s and wrote her PhD dissertation on the phonology of Hawaiian English, which was her term for what you probably call pidgin. The term "Hawaiian English" reflected her view that the local variety of English here was simply a local dialect of American English, differing only in detail from the many local dialects of American English you'd find on the mainland (e.g., my midwestern English). It was doubtless influenced in the past by Hawaiian plantation pidgin, and probably by what is sometimes called Hawaiian Creole English, but that's not what it is now. It's not a pidgin, and it's not a creole, it's just English.

          Carol Odo died earlier this year at 69.
          Greg

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          • #35
            Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

            Originally posted by dakamaainahaole View Post
            think li dis... when a mommy (and her twin) and a daddy language come togedda they make "manage-a-twa" aka a PIDGIN language... is a language derived from people of various backgrounds and languages (like 3 or more) and coming together into one common language fo make mo betta fo understand each otha... a creolean language is the baby of the language. ass why hawaii creole is just referred to as "pidgin"... calling it pidgin IS SPEAKING PIDGIN technically.

            BTW, i AM trying fo make revive the 'chred, dis, li dat... who's on baord!!!???
            Hey cuz,

            Barry passed away, and not able to respond.

            I am sure, even as haole he/we/me may be, the respect for natural/native tongue is present.
            Last edited by TATTRAT; July 10, 2011, 09:03 PM.
            flickr

            An email from God:
            To: People of Earth
            From: God
            Date: 9/04/2007
            Subject: stop

            knock it off, all of you

            seriously, what the hell


            --
            God

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            • #36
              Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

              Originally posted by GregLee View Post
              It was doubtless influenced in the past by Hawaiian plantation pidgin, and probably by what is sometimes called Hawaiian Creole English, but that's not what it is now. It's not a pidgin, and it's not a creole, it's just English.
              Not sure how you come to that conclusion, Greg, as Hawaiian pidgen uses words from Hawaiian, Japanese, Portuguese, Filipino (and maybe some others) over a basic English base. The grammatical structure seems to be mostly English with some occasional deviation.
              All due respect to Ms. Odo (may Kanaloa carry her to the rainbow), I have not read her dissertation but I'm sure she had her reasons.
              Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
              ~ ~
              Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
              Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
              Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

                Originally posted by TATTRAT View Post
                Hey cuz,

                Barry passed away, and not able to respond.

                I am sure, even as haole he/we/me may be, the respect for natural/native tongue is present.
                mahaloz for da news, hopefully his people ok. meant no disrespect, jus joke fo wala'au, ya
                "MahAloHawaii"
                xbox gamertag Top Shotta Fry

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

                  I'd love to see a comparative dictionary of Hawaiian Pidgen to English, but I'm too lazy to start one. Probably would be best as one of our interest group things, so we could keep it current.
                  Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
                  ~ ~
                  Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
                  Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
                  Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

                    Get real, folks. There is no standard pidgin. It varies from neighborhood to neighborhood, sometimes drastic variations.
                    .
                    .

                    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

                      Originally posted by Kaonohi View Post
                      Not sure how you come to that conclusion, Greg, as Hawaiian pidgen uses words from Hawaiian, Japanese, Portuguese, Filipino (and maybe some others) over a basic English base.
                      Every American English dialect is of this general nature, with vocabulary derived originally from various other languages (French, Latin, Greek, American Indian, etc., etc.). The fact that Hawaiian English words came originally from several different languages doesn't make it different from other English dialects, except of course in the detail of what particular words were borrowed from what particular other languages.
                      Greg

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                      • #41
                        Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

                        Originally posted by LikaNui View Post
                        Get real, folks. There is no standard pidgin. It varies from neighborhood to neighborhood, sometimes drastic variations.
                        Totally agree with you on this, LN. The difference varies not only from neighborhood to neighborhood, but from decade to decade. The pidgin my Dad spoke (when he was alive) is very different from the pidgin my nephews speak today. "Garans ball-barans" is a familiar phrase, always brings a smile to my face because it's from my time, "nostalgic to the max" as they say, but it's not the pidgin of today; it's from the 60s and 70s, if memory serves me right.

                        And it's not just the vocabulary that's different. That would be too easy. It's also different in the way the old-timers spoke--the rhythm, the inflections, the little nuances. Pidgin, after all, is a spoken reality, not a written one. You don't think about it, or worry about rules (there are none), or wonder about spelling, you just say what comes to mind. It is what it is. No worries, brah.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

                          Originally posted by GregLee View Post
                          Every American English dialect is of this general nature, with vocabulary derived originally from various other languages (French, Latin, Greek, American Indian, etc., etc.). The fact that Hawaiian English words came originally from several different languages doesn't make it different from other English dialects, except of course in the detail of what particular words were borrowed from what particular other languages.
                          OK. That makes sense to a degree. Louisiana, S. California, N.W. New England all pepper their English with extensive loan words, but in most areas our use of, say, Greek or Latin (as well as other languages), is minimal and ubiquitous, consisting of words that have been made a part of English, such as 'Pi' for example. This harkens back to our discussion of Standard English vs. standardized English.
                          I guess it goes back to definitions of what makes 'pidgin' or 'creole.' I think you said once though that you're not interested in definitions; forgive me if I'm in error about that (I'm too busy to try and find it).

                          If it is a matter of 'naming things' as a way to distinguish one from another, then calling 'Hawaiian English' pidgin is certainly helpful. It certainly is a subset (or dialect) of English, not a completely different language.

                          An interesting article on Hawaiian pidgin in Wikipedia identifies it an ISO 639-3 identified creole. The article cites even grammatical differences. If there's to be a discussion of pidgin (whether or not we agree or disagree) it's good to be up on what the scholars (or some scholars) think.
                          Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
                          ~ ~
                          Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
                          Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
                          Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

                            Originally posted by Kaonohi View Post
                            If it is a matter of 'naming things' as a way to distinguish one from another, then calling 'Hawaiian English' pidgin is certainly helpful.
                            Certainly helpful? Well, calling it a pidgin is helpful if it is a pidgin, but it's not helpful if it's not a pidgin -- then it is just misleading. I don't think it is a pidgin, as I said.
                            An interesting article on Hawaiian pidgin in Wikipedia identifies it an ISO 639-3 identified creole. The article cites even grammatical differences.
                            Thanks for the reference -- I hadn't seen this. But I don't think the reasoning is terribly impressive. Consider, for example, this (taken from the Wikipedia article), which purports to show that there are grammatical differences between Hawaiian English and Standard English:
                            For tense-marking of verb, auxiliary verbs are employed:
                            ...
                            * To express future tense, Pidgin uses goin (going) in front of the verb, a declaratory word or verbum dicendi, common in many forms of slang American English.

                            God goin do plenny good kine stuff fo him. (DJB, Mark 11:9)
                            God is going to do a lot of good things for him.
                            So, to demonstrate this supposed grammatical difference, the Wikipedia author points out that HE uses auxiliary verbs (rather than inflections) to express tense. Hey, here's some hot news: Standard English expresses the future tense with "will", which is an auxiliary verb, and can optionally use an auxiliary "did" to express the past tense (and that is obligatory in yes-no questions). Then, in the following example with "goin(g)", the HE and SE grammatical constructions are clearly exactly parallel, and neither involves an auxiliary verb. ("Going" is not an auxiliary because it cannot be inverted with the subject to form a yes-no question, which is a defining property of English auxiliaries.)

                            Generally, I love Wikipedia, but this article is substandard.
                            Greg

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

                              Originally posted by Honoruru View Post
                              Totally agree with you on this, LN. The difference varies not only from neighborhood to neighborhood, but from decade to decade. The pidgin my Dad spoke (when he was alive) is very different from the pidgin my nephews speak today. "Garans ball-barans" is a familiar phrase, always brings a smile to my face because it's from my time, "nostalgic to the max" as they say, but it's not the pidgin of today; it's from the 60s and 70s, if memory serves me right.
                              Garans ball barans. LOL! That's going a-ways back. Andy Bumatai used that phrase during his stand-up routine on his 1978 TV special, "Andy Bumatai's High School Daze." In fact, if you watch that show now, you'll hear quite bit of pidgin that has kind of gone by the wayside in recent years.

                              If it wasn't for the late Glen Grant, I think "chicken skin" would have been another one of those pidgin expressions that have fallen into dis-use.

                              When was the last time you ever heard a kid saying "Hana Okolele!" to another kid who did something bad?

                              Growing up, I often visited the Big Isle to see my grandparents. Back then, whenever someone there told me, "I see you in town next week," he/she wasn't talking about Hilo. "Town" meant Honolulu. Nowadays, I don't hear that as much.

                              Originally posted by Honoruru View Post
                              And it's not just the vocabulary that's different. That would be too easy. It's also different in the way the old-timers spoke--the rhythm, the inflections, the little nuances.
                              Absolutely right.

                              One thing that I hear old-timers do, time and time again: If you tell them a mildly funny joke that's not hilarious enough to elicit laughter, you'll hear them say "sssssss" instead of giggling.
                              Last edited by Frankie's Market; July 12, 2011, 02:18 PM.
                              This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

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                              • #45
                                Re: Da' Pidgin English Thread

                                Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
                                Garans ball barans. LOL! That's going a-ways back. Andy Bumatai used that phrase during his stand-up routine on his 1978 TV special, "Andy Bumatai's High School Daze." In fact, if you watch that show now, you'll hear quite bit of pidgin that has kind of gone by the wayside in recent years.
                                What? What? What? Why?

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