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  #51  
Old March 18th, 2009, 03:43 PM
Composite 2992 Composite 2992 is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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Originally Posted by Jewlipino View Post
Yeesh. Then change the law. Until then the law stands and that's how we operate.
Executive Order 9066 was a law, too. Didn't make it right.
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  #52  
Old March 18th, 2009, 04:08 PM
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Lightbulb Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
The ultimate irony would be to see the vessel painted grey and become a military transport plying the same waters.
Why is that ironic?! More than likely, that was their intention all along.
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Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
Using the SF as a commercial vessel to mask the "true" intention of serving as a military transport is really heavy on conspiracy. The military already has demo'ed twin hulls in Japan
And if you had clicked the link in post #15 of this thread, you would already know the vessel demo’ed in Japan (Okinawa, to be exact), was the WestPac Express — built by the same company that built the Superferry! DUH!!!

Are you even paying attention, or are you a surrogate working for Lehman and Co. posting your apologist propaganda to deliberately mislead HT members? I’ve posted links in every post that back up my claims, and which others have thanked me for. If you have documents — government or corporate — that disprove them, then in the words of Frankie’s Market, dazzle us with your inside information, Deep Throat!
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  #53  
Old March 18th, 2009, 04:40 PM
Jewlipino Jewlipino is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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Originally Posted by Composite 2992 View Post
Executive Order 9066 was a law, too. Didn't make it right.
Welllllll not really.... Executive Orders are not laws anymore than a Bush the 2nd signing statement is a line-item veto (also unconstitutional :P ). Let's review the separation of powers:

Legislative: Formulates and passes laws and budget subject to the approval of the Executive

Executive: Approves or disapproves laws passed by the Legislative, and executes said laws. Now under recent executives such as Lingle and Bush the 2nd the "executes" part has been interpreted broadly to mean they can pick and choose as to what parts they implement. Contrary to some opinions this was not the intent of the Founders, or for that matter the delegates at the last ConCon here in HI. The Executive is bound by the law and bound to enforce it... it just matters whether or not anyone is holding them to it.

Judiciary: Serves as the final arbiter as to the constitutional-ness of any laws or actions by the Legislative or Executive branches.

Now to return to the reference above. Executive Order 9066 stands on dubious legal footing, however the powers of a president in time of war are fluid and when suspect actions are taken it is incumbent on the electorate and their representatives to act. Lack of action should not be seen as a legitimization of said actions, as it doesn't change their nature, just the response. SO Gov. Lingle did something illegal, and is now doing what she usually does when she gets caught red-handed and firmly denies having done anything illegal. Does that make it legal? I think not. Just once I wish we could get an apology from her for wasting state resources and getting us into this debacle.
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  #54  
Old March 18th, 2009, 04:40 PM
joshuatree joshuatree is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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Originally Posted by TuNnL View Post
Why is that ironic?! More than likely, that was their intention all along.
And if you had clicked the link in post #15 of this thread, you would already know the vessel demo’ed in Japan (Okinawa, to be exact), was the WestPac Express — built by the same company that built the Superferry! DUH!!!

Are you even paying attention, or are you a surrogate working for Lehman and Co. posting your apologist propaganda to deliberately mislead HT members? I’ve posted links in every post that back up my claims, and which others have thanked me for. If you have documents — government or corporate — that disprove them, then in the words of Frankie’s Market, dazzle us with your inside information, Deep Throat!
Ok, first of all, calm down. In the same paragraph you are stating you back your statements with links, you go off accusing me of "apologist propaganda" or suggesting I work for Lehman without a shred of evidence.

As you've already shown, the JHSV concept was already demo'ed with the Westpac Express in Japan. There is no need to re-demo here in Hawaii. If the military wanted a dedicated JHSV transport in Hawaii, they don't need this elaborate scheme. Twin hull catamarans have both civilian and military practical use due to it's flexibility. It's really not far fetch at all to have a civilian transport conduct side business with the military to beef up the financial bottom line. I've already mentioned for X number of times Hawaiian Airlines has demonstrated this before. Helen has provided examples of civilian craft that can/was applied to military use. Given the thin profit margins and anti-business climate of Hawaii, a smart business would diversify it's revenue sources.

I say it's ironic because ferry opponents made the military conspiracy a self-fulfilling prophecy. Your link only indicated how the second vessel was given additional features and equipment to facilitate use by the military. Considering the rocky start with the first ship, if you were tasked with a multi-million project, are you gonna seriously tell me you're not going to devise plan B? Now that ferry opponents seem to have killed commercial service, they've pushed them to plan B. So that's why it's ironic. I don't have insider info to dazzle you, just common sense.
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  #55  
Old March 18th, 2009, 04:55 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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Originally Posted by mel View Post
Every year Republicans have led the charge to change some of our restrictive laws and ease the tax burden.
Which is precisely what got us into this current economic clusterf---. But in fairness a good chunk of Democrats in office bought into the same arguments.
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Originally Posted by mel View Post
And every year Democrats ignore those bills that do so and in fact introduce more bills and pass more laws that further restrict business and impose higher taxes!
That's oversimplifying the issue, produce examples and I will refute it. Furthermore does this refer to Democrats nationwide or just Democrats here in Hawaii?
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BTW, there is nothing wrong with military applications applied to civilian ships as long as the military pays the firm supplying the ship. And now for you myopic Superferry opponents, the possibility is there that Hawaii Superferry could sell both ships to the military for 100% use all of the time by the military.
I totally agree. I'm not opposed to it, I wasn't even against the UH UARC. Most of the amazing tech in history comes from military applications first. I'd like to restate, Mel, that I am not a HSF opponent so much as someone who doesn't like our hard-won environmental laws given the brush off. As I said before I like the concept of the HSF, but I find the company's conduct to be unethical and disrespectful.

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I love our Military. God Bless America. Land of the free. Home of the Brave.
Don't try to steal a patriotism march on me. Stick to the topic and try not to demonize people who opposed the HSF for reasons that are just as legitimate as your support.
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  #56  
Old March 18th, 2009, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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And now for you myopic Superferry opponents,
Well this is political posturing at its worst.

Jewlipino and Leo can speak for themselves if I'm wrong, but I don't think they are opponents of the Superferry. Neither am I. I just want the SF and the Lingle administration to follow the law.

Oh, it's too much trouble to follow the law??? Let the governor and legislature run amok even when laws they pass and enforce are flawed and unconstitutional? Yup, to hell with the balance of power!!! Who needs it?

Maybe you've heard the old adage about the road to hell being paved with good intentions. History has proven that out, time and time again.

And you call the folks who disagree with you "myopic?"

A very wise man once said, "First remove the rafter from your own eye."

Also folks, spare me any further lectures about people losing their jobs. First of all, I (and others on HT) have gone down that path before and survived. So I know how it feels to be unemployed. Believe it or not, it ain't the end of the world. So there's no need for this kind of personal criticism when it comes to discussing our different POVs about the SF debacle.

Looking at the bigger picture,.... if the top (the only?) priority when it comes to the legislation of law is to promote jobs over any and all other concerns, you may one day end up living in a future Hawaii you will not like.

Think about it: if jobs were all that mattered, then the Kaka'ako redevelopment proposal should go through full-steam ahead. To hell with those of you who are Kewalo Basin park users and surfers. Let's build a massive concrete jungle over there because it will CREATE JOBS. And to hell with anyone who values open space. Let's make this project as thick and dense as we can, because that will CREATE MORE JOBS.

That's all that matters, right?
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  #57  
Old March 18th, 2009, 06:18 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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Also folks, spare me any further lectures about people losing their jobs. First of all, I (and others on HT) have gone down that path before and survived. So I know how it feels to be unemployed. Believe it or not, it ain't the end of the world.
Disagree. And that is a very callous statement. I'm especially upset that over 200 new people are now looking for jobs. Add that to the other thousands of people looking for jobs and with every company that pulls out of Hawaii, there are less jobs available to that growing pool of people needing a job. All of the unemployed who are seeking work exponentially recieve less chances at finding a job because their odds at it are continually decreased by the constant influx of newer unemployed people. How long before we see laid off execs serving us chili at Zippys. Even sadder, that they would have had to compete for that minimum wage counter position with hundreds of other desperate laid off former professionals. Sure, most of them will survive and eventually make it through these tough times, but at what cost, and what about those who don't. Have a heart!
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  #58  
Old March 18th, 2009, 06:32 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
Check out how many nuclear subs are homeported at Pearl. Being on the far tip of the Big Island ain't gonna do that much better if one of those subs blew up. No one making a fuss.
The physics of a pressurized water reactor and the shielding of the reactor compartment make that remotely unlikely.

You wanna worry about submarine hazards, you should be more concerned about the other end where the missiles & torpedoes are handled. Or the next portcall by an OHIO-class ballistic missile submarine. Or hydrogen/chlorine leaks around the emergency storage battery. Or the hazards of loading oxygen. Or all the fuel tanks around the base. Or the topside sentries handling live ammunition for their security weapons.
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  #59  
Old March 18th, 2009, 07:12 PM
joshuatree joshuatree is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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Disagree. And that is a very callous statement. I'm especially upset that over 200 new people are now looking for jobs. Add that to the other thousands of people looking for jobs and with every company that pulls out of Hawaii, there are less jobs available to that growing pool of people needing a job. All of the unemployed who are seeking work exponentially recieve less chances at finding a job because their odds at it are continually decreased by the constant influx of newer unemployed people. How long before we see laid off execs serving us chili at Zippys. Even sadder, that they would have had to compete for that minimum wage counter position with hundreds of other desperate laid off former professionals. Sure, most of them will survive and eventually make it through these tough times, but at what cost, and what about those who don't. Have a heart!
Not to mention that's 200 people less putting into the system via taxes on paychecks that support the unemployment safety net.
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  #60  
Old March 18th, 2009, 07:28 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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Disagree. And that is a very callous statement. I'm especially upset that over 200 new people are now looking for jobs.
More finger-wagging and lecturing from the peanut gallery.

But no answers to any of the concerns I brought up about the long-term consequences of formulating piecemeal legislation purely in the interest of job creation, to the detriment of every other consideration.

Bend and bypass established laws and procedures to keep 200 SF jobs afloat today. All right. But where does it stop? Do we allow any and all parts of this island to be covered under concrete and asphalt for the sake of creating jobs? Do we commercialize every square foot of our precious parks and beaches for the sake of creating jobs?

Under this kind of short-sighted thinking, Hawaii would be ruined within a generation.

Think I'm exaggerating?

I wonder how many people who are either under the age of 30 or recently arrived to this state realize how different Hawaii would be today if commericial and big-business interests had their way on everything? To pick just one example: how many of y'all enjoy Magic Island and spent the day there with your family to picnic, play, and relax? How would of you like it if it suddenly wasn't made available for you to use? I got news for you. That nearly happened in the early 1970s. If it wasn't the effort of some activists who were concerned about maintaining open space and providing recreation for the public, a highrise hotel resort complex would be sitting on that land today.

But it seems like too many people today don't appreciate the hard work of those activists and community leaders who spoke out loudly whenever developers and politicians tried to circumvent the laws, planning process, and the EIS. They take for granted that the open space and the scenic beauty they enjoy have always been there and are blissfully unaware of the effort that it took to preserve those resources so that it could be passed on to the next generation.
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  #61  
Old March 18th, 2009, 07:40 PM
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Lightbulb Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
As you've already shown, the JHSV concept was already demo'ed with the Westpac Express in Japan. There is no need to re-demo here in Hawaii.
That's absurd! HSF is a separate company under Lehman & Co.’s control. The “success” of the Westpac Express just made it that much easier for HSF to secure loans from the feds and to raise capital from willing investors (and that much more important for Lehman to get his hands on a toy of his own).

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
If the military wanted a dedicated JHSV transport in Hawaii, they don't need this elaborate scheme.
Who said it was just for Hawai‘i? Once again, READ the links, particularly since I quoted the paragraph that addresses this very subject.

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Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
It's really not far fetch at all to have a civilian transport conduct side business with the military to beef up the financial bottom line.
And along those lines it’s even more profitable to have a military transport vessel for sale to navies worldwide... with an incidental side business of civilian transport.

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Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
if you were tasked with a multi-million project, are you gonna seriously tell me you're not going to devise plan B? Now that ferry opponents seem to have killed commercial service, they’ve pushed them to plan B.
I’m not convinced. IMHO, it’s more likely your “plan B” was actually Plan A all along. The “Superferry™ inter-island ferry service” was just a ruse to get the state to pay for the harbor improvements required to successfully run their demo. Unfortunately for Hawai‘i taxpayers, it looks like it worked like a charm.

More from the article I previously quoted:

Quote:
‘The Superferry is strong enough to take Stryker vehicles,’ Lehman told Pacific Business News (PBN) in March 2005. ‘HSF provided the Army with a cost analysis and expects to negotiate a long-term contract,’ PBN reported. On Jan. 7 of this year, HSF carried Hawai’i National Guard heavy equipment to Maui for removal of storm debris.

While providing passenger and cargo service between O‘ahu and Maui, the Superferry’s owners are able to conduct sea trials aimed at demonstrating the high-speed craft’s endurance and performance in rough open seas and littoral waters. Its need to quickly accrue time in the water could explain why HSF plans to offer a second daily run to Maui, even though it’s presently carrying only a third of the passenger load it projected, according to documents filed with the state Public Utilities Commission.

While using Hawaiian waters as a proving ground, HSF has been able to develop and test its prototype vessel with little financial risk to investors, thanks to a federally guaranteed loan of $143 million that covers much of the $190 million cost to build the two fast ferries, and $40 million in state support for related harbor projects.

[...]

The procurement environment is indeed heating up. Over the next five years, the Navy plans to buy eight JHSV, which also will be used by the Army and Marine Corps.
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  #62  
Old March 18th, 2009, 08:22 PM
joshuatree joshuatree is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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Originally Posted by TuNnL View Post
That's absurd! HSF is a separate company under Lehman & Co.’s control. The “success” of the Westpac Express just made it that much easier for HSF to secure loans from the feds and to raise capital from willing investors (and that much more important for Lehman to get his hands on a toy of his own).

Who said it was just for Hawai‘i? Once again, READ the links, particularly since I quoted the paragraph that addresses this very subject.

And along those lines it’s even more profitable to have a military transport vessel for sale to navies worldwide... with an incidental side business of civilian transport.

I’m not convinced. IMHO, it’s more likely your “plan B” was actually Plan A all along. The “Superferry™ inter-island ferry service” was just a ruse to get the state to pay for the harbor improvements required to successfully run their demo. Unfortunately for Hawai‘i taxpayers, it looks like it worked like a charm.

More from the article I previously quoted:
MV Westpac Express was built by Austal, the same ship builder as the HSF, nothing exceptionally different to be demo'ed by HSF.

How is a used, bankrupt vessel more profitable? If the military buys it, it be pennies to the dollar like what had happened to Spirit of Ontario I. Is that the conspiracy theory you are trying to paint? If that's the case, isn't the military still short 6 vessels since the JHSV program envisions 8?

Your suggestion that "plan B" was actually "plan A" makes even less sense. HSF did not shut down on its own accord. The likes of Sierra Club did. The $40 million the state spent was a loan, HSF had to repay over 22 years. And since the HSF ran a commercial service in the islands, had it been allowed to keep running and become successful, your suggestion that the military ruse for a transport isn't just for plying Hawaiian waters doesn't make sense either. The vessel's fast but it ain't a jet so you can't leave the islands and be back for next day's scheduled service just like that.
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  #63  
Old March 18th, 2009, 10:07 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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Originally Posted by Jewlipino View Post
Welllllll not really.... Executive Orders are not laws anymore than a Bush the 2nd signing statement is a line-item veto (also unconstitutional :P ).

Now to return to the reference above. Executive Order 9066 stands on dubious legal footing,
An exec order has the force of law. And 9066 was unconstitutional. That's well beyond dubious. Unless you don't mind being rounded up for being of a particular racial extraction, having everything you owned taken away, and sent to a prison without a trial for a crime you didn't commit.

To demand an EIS for the Superferry was also dubious. The fact remains that in 11 months of operation there was no downside. If an EIS is done (moot point by now) you can make a pretty good bet there would be few negative effects predicted, too.

Maybe Lingle should apologize for trying to fast-track this project. But if an EIS is conducted and fears against the Superferry is determined to be unfounded, who is going to apologize to and compensate the 200 people who lost their jobs? What about the corporation that lost millions of dollars invested in this state? Or the businesses that are being affected by the sudden loss of an efficient way to transport their goods?

Lots of examples of rule breakers that can be nailed on your priniciple of laws needing to be strictly enforced. Kihei had a set of zoning rules where there was to be no construction makai of the highway.

But as it is with local politics, exemptions were made. And once the door was opened it couldn't be shut. Should all those condos and hotels be bulldozed tomorrow? Should the beaches returned to their natural state by the end of April? Nevermind how much was invested. Or the jobs at stake. Or the possible negative effects on the economy or tourism. Just get it back to how it was supposed to be, based upon the original zoning regulations for that part of Maui. That's what will happen if you go strictly by the book.

And that's what happened to the Superferry.
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  #64  
Old March 18th, 2009, 10:30 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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More finger-wagging and lecturing from the peanut gallery.
Again, it's easy to have all the answers when you're sitting comfy. And who's talking about turning all of Hawaii into a concrete jungle? This is ONE case, ONE particular instance. Stay with this instance.

My ONLY point was with the rising unemployment, and the economy not getting better anytime soon, I was just mentioning that it really sucked for the people got stuck in the middle of a battle that they did not start, but got affected the most. Hawaii doesn't need any more people out of work. I know it's possible and most likely probable to survive unemployment, but in these days, it's getting really hard to find a job. I'm painfully aware of this.
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  #65  
Old March 18th, 2009, 11:34 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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Again, it's easy to have all the answers when you're sitting comfy. And who's talking about turning all of Hawaii into a concrete jungle? This is ONE case, ONE particular instance.
Yes. We are talking about circumventing the laws for ONE company.

And that is the exact reason why the Hawaii Supreme Court ruled against Lingle and the SF.

One job or 200, the high court will not compromise its legal principles.
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  #66  
Old March 18th, 2009, 11:39 PM
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Lightbulb Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
MV Westpac Express was built by Austal, the same ship builder as the HSF, nothing exceptionally different to be demo'ed by HSF.
How do you know that? Do you have the blueprints for HSF? Considering U.S. Navy and Army representatives toured the Alakai throughout its construction as part of the ongoing evaluation of potential JHSV platforms, it stands to reason they were (are) actively considering it as potentially better or worse then MV Westpac Express.

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Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
How is a used, bankrupt vessel more profitable? If the military buys it, it be pennies to the dollar like what had happened to Spirit of Ontario I.
Here’s yet another baseless assumption that compares apples to oranges. The Spirit of Ontario was a Canadian vessel plagued by damages incurred during a PR tour, as well as delays in building harbor improvements. It was purchased by a private entity through loans from Australia. No where in that equation is the U.S. military, which has always payed top dollar for its ships. If there’s one thing we can count on in good times and bad, it’s the U.S. military-industrial complex’ propensity to splurge taxpayer dollars.

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Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
isn't the military still short 6 vessels since the JHSV program envisions 8?
Brilliant observation. FYI, winning bidders for military contracts typically begin building jet planes, tanks, and joint high speed vessels after the contract is awarded to said bidder. As explained in this official press release distributed by the U.S. Navy Office of Corporate Communications, bids for the final design were awarded to three separate firms: Superferry builder Austal USA, Bath Iron Works, and Bollinger Shipyards Inc.

If you still don’t get it, what this means is, the military still isn’t necessarily convinced the Superferry is the best design for the final JHSV. But they’re willing to give Austal USA a shot at building one that is. Or two. Or eight.

Quote:
Your suggestion that "plan B" was actually "plan A" makes even less sense. HSF did not shut down on its own accord. The likes of Sierra Club did.
Hogwash! Like LikaNui pointed out earlier, HSF could have appealed the court’s decision all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. Maybe the Sierra Club would have then filed for an injunction as LikaNui also postulated. In fact, it seems most have missed Helen’s observation that even without any litigation or court action, Act 2, the very law that allows HSF to operate in the first place, was set to expire in May. But to be clear, HSF decided not to press the issue, and shut down of its own accord. Period. Show me documentation that says otherwise.

Quote:
since the HSF ran a commercial service in the islands, had it been allowed to keep running and become successful
Here is yet another fantasy scenario that 11 months of service by HSF proved to be impossible. Not only did HSF never make a profit, they never filled their boat. Imagine that. Not a single voyage. I believe the closest they came was the FREE trip provided to military servicemen and their families.
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Last edited by TuNnL; March 18th, 2009 at 11:44 PM. Reason: accurate linkage
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  #67  
Old March 19th, 2009, 12:26 AM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

If you want to assign blame, blame the Lingle Administration and the State Department of Transportation.They were the ones that determined the harbor improvements made to accommodate the Superferry were exempt from the requirements of HRS Chapter 343.

Procedures are in place to protect the public.They should be adhered to and not circumvented, especially for a single one company.
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  #68  
Old March 19th, 2009, 03:11 AM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

People either support the Superferry 100% or not at all. There is no gray area. I'm done with this thread. Go on and continue your Superferry bashing discussion. More than likely by tomorrow it will all be over completely except for the blame, which will continue forever.
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  #69  
Old March 19th, 2009, 03:12 AM
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Thumbs up Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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Originally Posted by Composite 2992 View Post
But as it is with local politics, exemptions were made. And once the door was opened it couldn't be shut.
My point exactly. Thank you!
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Old March 19th, 2009, 03:19 AM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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Originally Posted by TuNnL View Post
How do you know that? Do you have the blueprints for HSF?
Have you even bothered to visit Austal's website? All of their passenger/vehicle catamarans are essentially the same. Specs are there too if you want to study up. It's not a top secret F22 program, it's a civilian transport ship that can have military applications.

Baseless assumption? I see a lot of that coming from you. A sale of a used vessel in financial POV is the same regardless of private entity or military. The only stretch to create your "ruse" theory is if the military planned this multi-year "ruse" just so it can buy two catamarans for pennies to the dollar. But that's an awful lot of work. And like you said yourself, the military spends money when it wants. Doing this "ruse" makes zero sense, nada.

I don't know what press release you're reading (link did not work) but this press release from the navy indicates only Austal received the contract, not three ship builders as you say. The JHSV program clearly stipulates the ships will have a flight deck. This makes the HSF not suitable for the JHSV program. Are you going to fall back on the excuse that Austal needed boats to perform sea testing? Because if that's your theory, again, the MV Westpac Express already provides test data in that area. Austal also has built numerous commercial vessels of the same nature in service around the world for data culling. The navy also has HSV Swift, HSV Joint venture, and TSV-1X Spearhead for testing purposes.

If this was an elaborate military ruse as you go on about, why was HSF's commercial operation shut down by Sierra club / Supreme Court? They are all part of the military ruse?Your arugment that HSF could challenge in the Supreme Court, etc etc and they didn't means the military ruse is plan A is more tail wagging the dog. As a private enterprise, there is a threshold where you cut your loses and deem the venture unsuccessful. Filing a case in the Supreme Court can take years to get to. You need to show me documentation that HSF chose to shut down on its own for no apparent reason and it wasn't the court ruling that forced the shut down. Burden of proof is on you since this is your accusation, not mine. Don't forget, you like to harp about ridership levels but you fail to acknowledge HSF has been operating with one hand tied behinds its back for the last 11 months. The original business plan called for initially one ship with service to Kauai and Maui. Fees for cargo trucks are much higher and different than for passenger cars so looking at just raw ridership numbers don't give the entire picture.
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Old March 19th, 2009, 05:17 AM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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Originally Posted by Jewlipino View Post
Superferry shot itself in the foot. If they had just done the EIS like every other business is required to do with projects of this magnitude this situation simply would not have happened.
Well, that's what's being claimed. I can't help but wonder if that is really true or if the anti-change crowd wouldn't have found something else wrong with it.


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Originally Posted by TuNnL View Post
Let me ask you this: if the majority of Hawai‘i residents knew back then, that this was the real agenda of Superferry backers:


...do you think this sentiment would have been limited only to Kaua‘i and Maui? I think not.
Um, assuming that the majority of the Hawaii's residents aren't foaming at the mouth anti-military, what difference would it make?
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Old March 19th, 2009, 11:00 AM
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Lightbulb Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
It's not a top secret F22 program, it's a civilian transport ship that can have military applications.
We can go back and forth on whether civilian or military use is the secondary application, but your own post here is about to prove me right:

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
this press release from the navy indicates only Austal received the contract, not three ship builders as you say.
Okay, so of the three shipbuilders originally winning bids for a final design concept of the JHSV in January ’08, Austal USA won the contract. Thanks for that update. Apparently, Westpac Express & the Hawai‘i Superferry, the only two JHSV demos built by Austal USA for use in coordination with major U.S. military bases, did have an influence on who the U.S. Navy finally selected. Unfortunately $40 million in Hawai‘i state taxpayer dollars and 236 local jobs were collateral damage in that equation.

Your own press release reveals that now the number of JHVS to be built has increased from eight to 10. It even gives a pricetag: $185,433,564. Multiply that by 10, and you have a $1.8 billion-dollar contract, joshuatree. Far more then HSF could have ever dreamed of making in a civilian transport service scenario. I imagine Austal USA intends to compensate Lehman and Co. handily for their dirtywork. I wouldn’t be surprised if they now turn around and try to sell the HSF to a foreign country’s navy under the description “working prototype for the U.S. military’s cutting-edge JHSV program.”

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Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
The navy also has HSV Swift, HSV Joint venture, and TSV-1X Spearhead for testing purposes.
Yes, all three of these vessels were built by Incat Australia, whose U.S.-counterpart is Bollinger Shipyards Inc. — one of the two losing bidders for the JHVS contract. What a coincidence. Perhaps Bollinger Shipyards should have hired Lehman and Co. when they had the chance.

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Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
why was HSF's commercial operation shut down by Sierra club / Supreme Court?
I already debunked this utter falsehood in post #66. Pay attention. Once Austal USA was awarded the military contract, the non-profitable HSF civilian transport operation became irrelevant. And HSF officials acted accordingly.

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Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
Burden of proof is on you since this is your accusation, not mine.
I’m not a lawyer, and this is not a courtroom. I’ve posted more than a half-dozen links that support my claims. Your single link, also makes my case far better than it does yours. So keep believing what you want to believe. The bottom line is, Lehman and Co. will be laughing all the way to the bank, multi-millionaires several times over. Meanwhile, the state is left holding the bag. Good thing they have joshuatree to provide apologist propaganda supporting the “Lingle Administration’s official version of events.” I hear Admiral Fargo has called an HSF press conference for 6:30 a.m. today, so if you hurry, you can make it in time to lick his boots.

We’re done here.
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Old March 19th, 2009, 11:53 AM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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Originally Posted by helen View Post
Somehow to me this whole Superferry mess reeks of a get rich quick and leave scheme as opposed to some military testing conspiracy.
I dunno. I don't think they were waiting for the Supreme Court Ruling to ditch us. I don't think they knew in advance about the outcome.

I think there will be a ferry system for Hawaii in the near future. It just have to be owned by someone local or Native Hawaiians, not some outside group.
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Old March 19th, 2009, 02:05 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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Originally Posted by TuNnL View Post
Okay, so of the three shipbuilders originally winning bids for a final design concept of the JHSV in January ’08, Austal USA won the contract. Thanks for that update. Apparently, Westpac Express & the Hawai‘i Superferry, the only two JHSV demos built by Austal USA for use in coordination with major U.S. military bases, did have an influence on who the U.S. Navy finally selected. Unfortunately $40 million in Hawai‘i state taxpayer dollars and 236 local jobs were collateral damage in that equation.

Your own press release reveals that now the number of JHVS to be built has increased from eight to 10. It even gives a pricetag: $185,433,564. Multiply that by 10, and you have a $1.8 billion-dollar contract, joshuatree. Far more then HSF could have ever dreamed of making in a civilian transport service scenario. I imagine Austal USA intends to compensate Lehman and Co. handily for their dirtywork. I wouldn’t be surprised if they now turn around and try to sell the HSF to a foreign country’s navy under the description “working prototype for the U.S. military’s cutting-edge JHSV program.”
You're so far up conspiracy theory alley that you're simply running in circles to explain your way out of flaws in your explanations.

So now you are suggesting Lehman's gonna get a cut from Austal even though you simply don't have a shred of evidence? Weren't you the one early on gloating at me that you back all your statements up? Shesh....give it a rest with all the works of fiction. Without any hard evidence, all your suggestions have no more merit than my viewpoint and it's absurd for you to attempt to quash my viewpoint when all you have is your imagination running wild. And more errors from you yet again, Westpac Express was not built by Austal USA. It was built by Austal of Henderson, Australia. Austal has long been selling to other navies before this program. You still haven't checked out Austal's site, have you?


Quote:
Originally Posted by TuNnL View Post
Yes, all three of these vessels were built by Incat Australia, whose U.S.-counterpart is Bollinger Shipyards Inc. — one of the two losing bidders for the JHVS contract. What a coincidence. Perhaps Bollinger Shipyards should have hired Lehman and Co. when they had the chance.

I already debunked this utter falsehood in post #66. Pay attention. Once Austal USA was awarded the military contract, the non-profitable HSF civilian transport operation became irrelevant. And HSF officials acted accordingly.

I’m not a lawyer, and this is not a courtroom. I’ve posted more than a half-dozen links that support my claims. Your single link, also makes my case far better than it does yours. So keep believing what you want to believe. The bottom line is, Lehman and Co. will be laughing all the way to the bank, multi-millionaires several times over. Meanwhile, the state is left holding the bag. Good thing they have joshuatree to provide apologist propaganda supporting the “Lingle Administration’s official version of events.” I hear Admiral Fargo has called an HSF press conference for 6:30 a.m. today, so if you hurry, you can make it in time to lick his boots.

We’re done here.
What coincidence? Ship builders vying for a ship contract? Holy smokes, what a concept. Maybe Austal's paying off Incat to produce some ships that didn't performed to the military's expectations, thereby insuring Austal wins the contract. I'm waiting for you to link this to UFOs and Area 51.

You've debunked nothing. The contract was assigned back in 11/08. It is 3/09. If HSF was merely a front, there was no need to keep playing the charade till the Sierra Club / Supreme Court effectively pulled the plug. I notice you really can't answer that question of why it was SC/SC that killed the service. All you do is throw up smoke and mirrors to detract from that main critical point. Yeah, you're done. And no, it's not a courtroom for your arguments would have been tossed out early on. You can have your opinions, I can have mine. But if you want to attempt to step on mine without being able to logically answer critical questions head on and you need to attack me at a personal level, take a good look in the mirror. The term "apologist propagandist" suits you perfectly.
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Old March 19th, 2009, 02:36 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
If HSF was merely a front, there was no need to keep playing the charade till the Sierra Club / Supreme Court effectively pulled the plug. I notice you really can't answer that question of why it was SC/SC that killed the service.
From what little I know about this, it seems that the Sierra Club's interest is making sure that the paperwork and other rules and regulations gets done before operations continue.

According to the Star Bulletin, the shutdown of the SuperFerry is for the short term, which might mean between now and June, which I think is when the EIS should be finished. I suspect that once the EIS is done, the Sierra Club should not be factor in this, unless they find some other administrative stuff relating to the enivornment that got overlooked.

As far as the other two groups Maui Tomorrow and Kahului Harbor Coalition, I have no clue what their agendas are.
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