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  #1  
Old February 19th, 2009, 07:17 PM
Leo Lakio Leo Lakio is offline
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Default Gays in the Armed Forces

Starting with this quote, lifted from a thread about the bailout plans (where it was already off topic), I thought I'd give it its own home for further discussion...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobinator View Post
Getting rid of the "Don't ask, don't tell" policy in the military ... is a ton of dismanteling, I'd say.
So, who wants to be first to tell us why they think its such a morally abhorrent idea to allow homosexuals in the U.S. military? Bobinator? The floor is open to you...
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Old February 19th, 2009, 07:44 PM
Ron Whitfield Ron Whitfield is offline
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Default Re: Gays in the Armed Forces

...as tho they havn't been there all along and served well, like any other service personel. As is the usual case in the ranks, if someone get's out of line, there's someone waiting to straighten them out.
Case in point, 2 guy's are caught together in the barracks, catch whoopin's from fellow soldiers, Sargent comes out and barks WTF?!, hears the explanation, say's "carry on"...
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Old February 19th, 2009, 07:48 PM
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Default Re: Gays in the Armed Forces

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRQRbkqlgDQ
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Old February 19th, 2009, 10:59 PM
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Default Re: Gays in the Armed Forces

My biggest concern with gays in the military is that they will go into battle with purse and high heels that don't match.
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Old February 20th, 2009, 12:28 AM
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Default Re: Gays in the Armed Forces

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
Case in point, 2 guy's are caught together in the barracks, catch whoopin's from fellow soldiers, Sargent comes out and barks WTF?!, hears the explanation, say's "carry on"...
whoopin aint such a bad idea...i prefer mines with a little....oh never mind

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he rocks!!!

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Originally Posted by matapule View Post
My biggest concern with gays in the military is that they will go into battle with purse and high heels that don't match.
lol

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Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
So, who wants to be first to tell us why they think its such a morally abhorrent idea to allow homosexuals in the U.S. military? Bobinator? The floor is open to you...
*chuckles*
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Old February 20th, 2009, 12:36 AM
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Default Re: Gays in the Armed Forces

I remember when "don't ask, don't tell" was a hot button issue, the folks I knew who were the most adamant about keeping gays out were all members of the armed forces or had family members serving.

Not surprising, really. The US military establishment has always dragged its feet and struggled to keep up with civilian society when it came to social enlightenment. Let's not forget that army brass resisted President Truman's executive order for troop integration in 1948 for several years, with segregated units existing all the way up to the mid 1950s. And it wasn't until the Tailhook Scandal of the 1990s that the navy started to take the issue of sexual harrassment against women seriously.
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Old February 20th, 2009, 12:51 AM
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Default Re: Gays in the Armed Forces

I was on the "pro-gay" side of a debate on this when I was in the 8th grade. My male opponent's biggest argument was, "But they'd be attracted to me and want to watch me change out of my uniform! I don't want to get raped!"

I gave him the biggest tongue-lashing ever, starting with, "What makes you think anyone, male or female would even find you attractive enough to want to see you naked?" and then asking, "Should I be afraid of you?"

He said, "Uhhh, no. Why?"

"Well, because you like girls. I'm a girl, so you must be attracted to me, right? You're wanting to watch me change clothes, right? And I should be afraid you're going to rape me now, shouldn't I?"

Impressed the teacher, but unfortunately flew right over his little 13-year old head.
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Old February 20th, 2009, 02:03 AM
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Default Re: Gays in the Armed Forces

Quote:
Originally Posted by matapule View Post
My biggest concern with gays in the military is that they will go into battle with purse and high heels that don't match.
I suspect that those would only be the anally receptive ones. It's their partners that you'd want fighting next to you.
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Old February 20th, 2009, 02:16 AM
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Default Re: Gays in the Armed Forces

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
Starting with this quote, lifted from a thread about the bailout plans (where it was already off topic), I thought I'd give it its own home for further discussion...

So, who wants to be first to tell us why they think its such a morally abhorrent idea to allow homosexuals in the U.S. military? Bobinator? The floor is open to you...
You haven't been in the military, have you? They don't have separate homosexual bathrooms, living quarters, etc.

Kinda ujie, if you know what I mean.
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Old February 20th, 2009, 02:39 AM
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Talking Re: Gays in the Armed Forces

Quote:
Originally Posted by surlygirly View Post
I was on the "pro-gay" side of a debate on this when I was in the 8th grade. My male opponent's biggest argument was, "But they'd be attracted to me and want to watch me change out of my uniform! I don't want to get raped!"

I gave him the biggest tongue-lashing ever, starting with, "What makes you think anyone, male or female would even find you attractive enough to want to see you naked?" and then asking, "Should I be afraid of you?"

He said, "Uhhh, no. Why?"

"Well, because you like girls. I'm a girl, so you must be attracted to me, right? You're wanting to watch me change clothes, right? And I should be afraid you're going to rape me now, shouldn't I?"

Impressed the teacher, but unfortunately flew right over his little 13-year old head.
Who cares about the gay issue? I want coed barracks, now that you brought it up subtly. Works in firehouses.

And yes, you should be afraid. That one little "firewall" inside me is what kept me from straying into the dark side.
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Old February 20th, 2009, 04:13 AM
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Default Re: Gays in the Armed Forces

Quote:
Originally Posted by zztype View Post
You haven't been in the military, have you? They don't have separate homosexual bathrooms, living quarters, etc.

Kinda ujie, if you know what I mean.
i do agree with you zztype whole heartedly; terribly uncomfortable for the straight male knowing a fag is in the shower or in the same room with them.....i am only guessing for most it all boils down to respect

i as a 34 year old fag completely understand both sides; there should always be limits as to what an individual can say or do at what is presented at any moment....i support both sides of the argument...i've heard the worst; seen the worst and have been physically attacked and bashed (of course not here in hawaii - at least not yet)

we all have our opinions at the "what mays"....but in the end it is all about respecting ones; ideas; opinions; beliefs etc.etc.....

for myself...i know of the limits of when, what and where...what i fancy the most is observing the known hatred and ignorant in detail with most individuals and also with myself (lord knows i have an ugly hatred ignorant side at times)...i can't help but laugh at it at times...i don't become angry or upset....i laugh not at the ugly hatred ignorant part...but at the wasted energy...i observe it with every detail...it is better than t.v (although i am not a t.v fan)...reality-up close and personal

be blessed - have a pleasant weekend ht ohana

*laughs @ Random "I want coed Barracks"
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  #12  
Old February 20th, 2009, 09:46 AM
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Default Re: Gays in the Armed Forces

[rant]

The military needs every gay volunteer that wants to join. It also needs more raging heterosexuals, men, women, whites, African-Americans, Africans, Canadians, Latinos, Asians, atheists, Catholics, Jews, Republicans, Libertarians, Unitarians, and (*gasp*) Democrats. They all need to be patriots. I guess they cannot be conscientious objectors.

I don't think sexual orientation has anything to do with a military veteran's potential or skills any more than race, religion, or sports-team preference. They're all dangerous topics of discussion in a barracks or a wardroom.

I served with a number of homosexuals during my 20 years in the submarine force. I knew some of them were gay, but I bet that I only knew the sexual preference of about 5% of the homosexuals I served with. It isn't relevant to running a sonar search or operating a nuclear reactor, let alone breaking things & killing people. It isn't relevant in liberty ports, either.

My spouse also served with a number of homosexuals during her 25 years in the military. Again, not relevant.

Frankly during our military careers we had far more problems balancing work and life, regardless of whether it was heterosexual or homosexual.

In the military (and in the rest of the world's occupations, too) sexual orientation is a distraction and shouldn't even be dignified with the term "issue". Here's a real military issue: the submarine force's annual junior-officer retention has been running in the single digits over the last few years. Over 90% of them serve their minimum obligated service and get out. The majority paid for four years of college on the Navy's dime, spent another 15 months in advanced training, and served only three years (or less) of sea duty. At that rate it doesn't take long for dinosaur institutions to become extinct. Unfortunately the submarine force's leadership (ironically all male and overwhelmingly white) has been almost criminally negligent in correcting those issues. If they don't get in front of improving the demographics, instead of wringing their hands over gender & sexual orientation, then it won't take long for them to becone irrelevant too.

[/rant]

In occupations that involve a high degree of personal risk-- like police, firefighters, and military-- the recruiters can't afford to be choosy about demographics... only potential & qualifications.
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  #13  
Old February 20th, 2009, 10:43 AM
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Default Re: Gays in the Armed Forces

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords View Post
[rant]

The military needs every gay volunteer that wants to join. It also needs more raging heterosexuals, men, women, whites, African-Americans, Africans, Canadians, Latinos, Asians, atheists, Catholics, Jews, Republicans, Libertarians, Unitarians, and (*gasp*) Democrats. They all need to be patriots. I guess they cannot be conscientious objectors.

I don't think sexual orientation has anything to do with a military veteran's potential or skills any more than race, religion, or sports-team preference. They're all dangerous topics of discussion in a barracks or a wardroom.

I served with a number of homosexuals during my 20 years in the submarine force. I knew some of them were gay, but I bet that I only knew the sexual preference of about 5% of the homosexuals I served with. It isn't relevant to running a sonar search or operating a nuclear reactor, let alone breaking things & killing people. It isn't relevant in liberty ports, either.

My spouse also served with a number of homosexuals during her 25 years in the military. Again, not relevant.

Frankly during our military careers we had far more problems balancing work and life, regardless of whether it was heterosexual or homosexual.

In the military (and in the rest of the world's occupations, too) sexual orientation is a distraction and shouldn't even be dignified with the term "issue". Here's a real military issue: the submarine force's annual junior-officer retention has been running in the single digits over the last few years. Over 90% of them serve their minimum obligated service and get out. The majority paid for four years of college on the Navy's dime, spent another 15 months in advanced training, and served only three years (or less) of sea duty. At that rate it doesn't take long for dinosaur institutions to become extinct. Unfortunately the submarine force's leadership (ironically all male and overwhelmingly white) has been almost criminally negligent in correcting those issues. If they don't get in front of improving the demographics, instead of wringing their hands over gender & sexual orientation, then it won't take long for them to becone irrelevant too.

[/rant]

In occupations that involve a high degree of personal risk-- like police, firefighters, and military-- the recruiters can't afford to be choosy about demographics... only potential & qualifications.
nords, with this post, you have become my hero. thank you also for your military service. *salute*
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Old February 20th, 2009, 12:09 PM
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Default Re: Gays in the Armed Forces

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords View Post
Here's a real military issue: the submarine force's annual junior-officer retention has been running in the single digits over the last few years. Over 90% of them serve their minimum obligated service and get out.
Great post.

As for the part above - isn't that linked to a shortage of movement above the junior-officer rank? I have no personal experience, but I have heard comments from elsewhere that what happens is the officers reach a level, make some calculations on their chance for promotion - and bail. There's just no where to go.
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Old February 20th, 2009, 12:48 PM
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Default Re: Gays in the Armed Forces

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Originally Posted by zztype View Post
You haven't been in the military, have you? They don't have separate homosexual bathrooms, living quarters, etc.

Kinda ujie, if you know what I mean.
Gives a whole new meaning to the term, "sub sandwich", huh?
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Old February 20th, 2009, 03:15 PM
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Default Re: Gays in the Armed Forces

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Originally Posted by GeckoGeek View Post
Great post.[...]
Agree!

Do people really think that all gays are sexually promiscuous and, with abandon, will lust after every person of the same gender? That a gay won't be able to control himself in common surroundings? What about straights who are promiscuous and aggressive? Are they more acceptable?

Just curious...
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Old February 20th, 2009, 03:17 PM
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Default Re: Gays in the Armed Forces

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Gives a whole new meaning to the term, "sub sandwich", huh?
*groans*

File this under Worse Joke I've Heard in Ages.
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Old February 20th, 2009, 03:21 PM
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Default Re: Gays in the Armed Forces

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Agree!

Do people really think that all gays are sexually promiscuous and, with abandon, will lust after every person of the same gender? That a gay won't be able to control himself in common surroundings? What about straights who are promiscuous and aggressive? Are they more acceptable?
I don't know. Let's put a straight aggressively promiscuous guy in an occupied all-girl shower room and see what happens.

So, show of posts that any girls -- and guys too -- here want a coed barrack a la Starship Troopers?
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Old February 20th, 2009, 03:42 PM
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Default Re: Gays in the Armed Forces

Quote:
Originally Posted by tutusue View Post
Agree!

Do people really think that all gays are sexually promiscuous and, with abandon, will lust after every person of the same gender? That a gay won't be able to control himself in common surroundings? What about straights who are promiscuous and aggressive? Are they more acceptable?

Just curious...
Exactly the point I was trying to make 15 years ago, only much more concisely put.
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Old February 20th, 2009, 03:54 PM
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Default Re: Gays in the Armed Forces

Quote:
Originally Posted by Random View Post
Let's put a straight.........guy in an occupied (coed) shower room and see what happens.
Been there, done that. After the first 3 minutes, it is no big deal for either gender. Obviously you have not had the experience and have no idea what to expect or the group dynamics. Try it sometime, you might be surprised - in a good way.

Quote:
So, show of posts that any girls -- and guys too -- here want a coed barrack a la Starship Troopers?
I don't see any problem with that. In fact. things tend to be much more civilized in a coed barrack than an all male barrack. I would much prefer to be in a co-ed barrack than an all male barrack. And I have always been aggressively non-promiscuous too.
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Old February 20th, 2009, 05:55 PM
Leo Lakio Leo Lakio is offline
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Default Re: Gays in the Armed Forces

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Originally Posted by zztype View Post
You haven't been in the military, have you? They don't have separate homosexual bathrooms, living quarters, etc.

Kinda ujie, if you know what I mean.
If you don't mind me putting you on the spot a little, Blaine ... do you feel comfortable explaining what about it made you "ujie"? (Great spelling of that word, btw.) I want to be sure I'm not assuming anything about you (or anyone else) in this discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Random View Post
I don't know. Let's put a straight aggressively promiscuous guy in an occupied all-girl shower room and see what happens.

So, show of posts that any girls -- and guys too -- here want a coed barrack a la Starship Troopers?
By this logic, then, nudist gatherings should have all turned out disastrously over the decades. Yet they don't.

Last edited by Leo Lakio; February 20th, 2009 at 05:58 PM.
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  #22  
Old February 20th, 2009, 11:26 PM
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Default Re: Gays in the Armed Forces

This isn't a problem unless they change how a soldier salutes or carry his weapon.
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Old February 21st, 2009, 02:57 AM
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Default Re: Gays in the Armed Forces

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Originally Posted by Random View Post
*groans*

File this under Worse Joke I've Heard in Ages.
ZZType knows my sense of humor.

Having worked with a summer job with a cross-gender gal (was a guy) and being part of a film crew with a lot of gays for about a month, I'm not bothered at all. They were all great to work with. However, this wasn't the military, we weren't living in closed quarters for months a a time, and I didn't have to bunk with them.

About 30 years ago I did end up in a small tent with someone who I soon found out was gay, and that guy couldn't keep his hands to himself. I should have "outed" him right there and then but didn't quite know how to handle it without embarrassing myself and him. Needless to say, I was pissed off.

If I were in a battle situation I couldn't care less what someone's orientation might be, as long as they were good team members, shot straight, and were willing to pull a trigger when the time came. But they'd still have to keep their hands to themselves. Just plain courtesy.
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Old February 21st, 2009, 03:57 AM
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Talking Re: Gays in the Armed Forces

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Originally Posted by matapule View Post
Been there, done that. After the first 3 minutes, it is no big deal for either gender. Obviously you have not had the experience and have no idea what to expect or the group dynamics. Try it sometime, you might be surprised - in a good way.
Considering that you deliberately omitted the adjectives from my post, I'm guessing you're NOT aggressively promiscuous.
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Old February 21st, 2009, 03:59 AM
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By this logic, then, nudist gatherings should have all turned out disastrously over the decades. Yet they don't.
Perhaps, but not everyone have the same mindset as nudists both male and female.
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