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  #1  
Old October 6th, 2005, 11:03 PM
Rickyrab Rickyrab is offline
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Default Rail Transit

What's up with that proposal?
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  #2  
Old October 7th, 2005, 01:54 AM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Light rail/ Busway in Honolulu?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickyrab
What's up with that proposal?
It's in the study phase right now. The Mayor of Honolulu is in Japan looking at elevated trains as a solution rather than light rail. Of course, all the people with views will scream and holler if an elevated system is put in, but it would help reduce congestion at street level.

Maybe the whole thing will die if gas prices keep going up the way they have and people end up being more resourceful by carpooling, using the current public transportation system or telecommuting. A light rail system wouldn't be in place for years, even after the final plans are drawn up and approved.

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Old October 7th, 2005, 02:09 AM
kimo55 kimo55 is offline
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Default Re: Light rail/ Busway in Honolulu?

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Originally Posted by Miulang
but it would help reduce congestion at street level.
ok let's say it does go in. We are quite congested now, of course. How can it re-DUCE congestion? We will be VERY congested by the time it comes in, as long as they continue allowing overdevelopment on our finite land mass of an island. And when the train/rail gets active, and more people move here and into the ever growing developments and condo popping up units allll over, cuz they WILL build them, cuz the rail system is in place to handle the growing masses... see the scenario?

i don't see how this is anything but a small bandaid. Unless they prevent the problem from growing anymore.
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  #4  
Old October 7th, 2005, 12:19 PM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Light rail/ Busway in Honolulu?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimo55
ok let's say it does go in. We are quite congested now, of course. How can it re-DUCE congestion? We will be VERY congested by the time it comes in, as long as they continue allowing overdevelopment on our finite land mass of an island. And when the train/rail gets active, and more people move here and into the ever growing developments and condo popping up units allll over, cuz they WILL build them, cuz the rail system is in place to handle the growing masses... see the scenario?

i don't see how this is anything but a small bandaid. Unless they prevent the problem from growing anymore.
It would get some of the cars off the street that currently clog the roads if people used the system. I don't know of anywhere in this country that has actually tried to prevent development from happening (Oregon tried for a while, in a sort of tongue and cheek way). All you can do is try to slow it down through careful growth management. I don't think that's possible in Honolulu per se; "planned" communities like Kapolei have a little better chance of slowing growth down. But as I said, the problem might actually go away or at least be mitigated somewhat if people get akamai and start carpooling, using TheBus or having businesses allow for some telecommuting of employees, or giving office workers the option of flextime so they don't all start work at the same time or pau hana at the same time...all kinds of options already exist for those who are willing to use them.

The problem with fixed rail systems (whether light rail or elevated) is their routes may not be very convenient. So you'd probably still have to drive or walk someplace to catch the danged thing. What's killing the Seattle Monorail Project (besides the fact that it would have taken 40 years to finance a 13-mile line) is that the route itself wouldn't be very convenient for many people and there was no thought put in place about what to do with the cars that people would have to drive in order to get to a convenient station. The neighborhoods where the stations were planned to be erected were in a tizzy (my neighborhood included) because commuters would be forced to park on our streets and there's not enough parking for residents as it is. Fortunately for me, I have a garage so I don't park on the streets, but my part of town is the most densely populated in the city so finding on street parking is challenging on some blocks.

Miulang

Last edited by Miulang; October 7th, 2005 at 12:22 PM.
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  #5  
Old October 7th, 2005, 03:40 PM
Rickyrab Rickyrab is offline
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Default Re: Light rail/ Busway in Honolulu?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimo55
ok let's say it does go in. We are quite congested now, of course. How can it re-DUCE congestion? We will be VERY congested by the time it comes in, as long as they continue allowing overdevelopment on our finite land mass of an island. And when the train/rail gets active, and more people move here and into the ever growing developments and condo popping up units allll over, cuz they WILL build them, cuz the rail system is in place to handle the growing masses... see the scenario?

i don't see how this is anything but a small bandaid. Unless they prevent the problem from growing anymore.
New York City practically pioneered elevated trains, and they had a congestion problem even before some smart-aleck thought up either els or light rail. No, the congestion hasn't gone away. However, people are now able to bypass it by subway (which is like an elevated line, only underground rather than above the street; real-estate interests demanded that the els be demolished in Manhattan and got their wish); besides, having railways that dodge the traffic rather than sit in the traffic makes the traffic, well, dodgable. Furthermore, Oahu, being overdeveloped, is a good candidate for a better transit system because such a system will save time for more people than it would in, say, some large suburb such as Phoenix, AZ. Look at Hong Kong. It's overdeveloped. It has a good transit system. Look at London. That place is also overdeveloped, and its Underground is world famous. Same goes for Chicago and its El. The point: Yes, overdeveloped areas will have traffic jams. However, transit, while it won't solve the problem of congestion, will help people to more or less not worry as much about it.
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  #6  
Old October 7th, 2005, 03:45 PM
kimo55 kimo55 is offline
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Default Re: Light rail/ Busway in Honolulu?

so the message is:
go ahead and overdevelop. everyone, look forward to overdevelopment. resign ourselves to the fate. Do not rant and protest about it. do not look for other solutions. do not work against the blind destruction, overpopulation and overdevelopment and rampant greed stimulating the destruction of our lands. This is what they do in other lands and on the mainland, so let's follow suit. Look at other big cities. We can be just like them.
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  #7  
Old October 7th, 2005, 03:53 PM
Rickyrab Rickyrab is offline
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Default Re: Light rail/ Busway in Honolulu?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimo55
so the message is:
go ahead and overdevelop. everyone, look forward to overdevelopment. resign ourselves to the fate. Do not rant and protest about it. do not look for other solutions. do not work against the blind destruction, overpopulation and overdevelopment and rampant greed stimulating the destruction of our lands. This is what they do in other lands and on the mainland, so let's follow suit. Look at other big cities. We can be just like them.
Not necessarily. Even in Hong Kong, development generally stays off the mountains. This sort of thing works best in places with natural growth boundaries (NOT like Portland, Oregon, which is a wannabe at this game and keeps coming under pressure to expand its artificial "growth boundaries"). Manhattan has its Central Park; New Jersey has its farms (and a protective lobby eager to keep the farmlands farmlands). The point is not to overdevelop EVERYTHING. If growth happens, it ought to be channeled. The trouble with this is obvious: it would mean much of the Oahu coast could wind up looking like Waikiki. On the plus side, much of the interior and the highlands might stay green and pleasant... (shrugs)
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  #8  
Old June 23rd, 2006, 05:57 PM
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craigwatanabe craigwatanabe is offline
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Default mass transit renderings

Okay I saw the renderings of what the rail would look like thru University. Frankly I think the cement overpass looks nice compared to the urbanized look of without. At least there will be some shade with the overpass. Maybe they can incorporate the utility lines into the design and get rid of those really ugly power/cable/telephone lines and poles and perhaps install the street lighting underneath.

But the second set of pictures showing the Aloha Tower marketplace shows the same before and after shots as the "before" by their description you can't tell the difference

http://starbulletin.com/2006/06/23/news/story02.html

I think the design is nice with the sculpted look. Kinda gives Moilili a 21st century look to it. It'll look even more at home once the graphitti artists figure out a way to climb to the underpinnings of the cement guides

Last edited by craigwatanabe; June 23rd, 2006 at 06:02 PM.
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  #9  
Old June 23rd, 2006, 06:04 PM
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Default Re: mass transit renderings

Seing the flyover and the huge supports can be jarring... but that's what an elevated rail system looks like. I think they're honest and realistic, but to be sure they'll stop a few folks dead in their tracks (no pun intended... at least not initially). Various tricks could be used to make them look more pretty, but I'm glad the renderings were mostly straightforward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigwatanabe
But the second set of pictures showing the Aloha Tower marketplace shows the same before and after shots as the "before" by their description you can't tell the difference
Well, that's the one sneaky one. If you look closely, the elevated rail is visible through the trees. Why they'd pick that angle for a rendering makes no sense... except that it was probably easy to create and proves that you might not see too much concrete from Chai's!

Will the intersection of University and Beretania be significantly transformed by the rail line? Yes, but in many, many ways beyond the view -- for both better and worse.

An elevated rail along Kamehameha Highway in Aiea or over Nimitz near downtown won't be pretty... but the H-1 airport viaduct and Moanalua Freeway through Makiki ain't pretty either. I'd take an elevated rail over a six-lane interstate, that's for darn sure.

And as some have noted, several of the areas through which the line is proposed to run aren't exactly urban design showcases, anyway. A rail line and rail stations, well planned, can actually be part of the impetus to improve and develop districts (primarily industrial and commercial) that have, until now, basically been left to decay.
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  #10  
Old June 23rd, 2006, 07:31 PM
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LikaNui LikaNui is offline
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Default Re: mass transit renderings

They're saying it'll cost three billion dollars just to do Kapolei to Honolulu.

We need to stop this insanity. Instead, spend the money on infrastructure like, oh, you know, maybe sewer lines?! And repair the schools that are falling apart.
Ya think?
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  #11  
Old June 23rd, 2006, 08:33 PM
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Default Re: mass transit renderings

Quote:
Originally Posted by LikaNui
They're saying it'll cost three billion dollars just to do Kapolei to Honolulu.

We need to stop this insanity. Instead, spend the money on infrastructure like, oh, you know, maybe sewer lines?! And repair the schools that are falling apart.
Ya think?

Don't make me think...Today was a dangerous example when you give someone the opportunity to exercise his noggin.

But since you asked Three BILLION dollars (picks teeth with pinky) man that's a lot of transit taxes for you folks on Oahu. Someone should do a survey and see just how many people that segment will accomodate and divide it into the three BILLION (pinky still in teeth) dollars and see if it's viable enough. Something tells me that for the amount per person this rail will be handling, you could probably buy each one of those potential riders a new car and let them drive themselves to work cheaper.
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  #12  
Old June 23rd, 2006, 10:20 PM
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Default Re: mass transit renderings

Doing any sort of mass transit on Oahu is a kin to shooting yourself in the foot, only question is which foot do you shoot and there is the possibilty that you might hit some other piece of your leg (like the knee).

A raised rail line is way better than having a rail line on the ground level but that means that the stations need elevators to be ADA compliant, that itself is going to add staff to make sure that is in working working.
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  #13  
Old July 26th, 2006, 04:53 AM
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Arriflexer Arriflexer is offline
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Default Rail Transit

What does everyone think about the whole mass transit issue?

I think it is long over due to be built. As long as the dumb ass politicians have the guts to take it where it needs to go.

Anyway what is the big mystery anyway... everyone in Hawaii goes to Disney Land once a year anyway.... the Monrail there is fast, QUIET, and cool looking. If we had something like that.... with surf racks on it..... start building it tomorrow.
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  #14  
Old July 26th, 2006, 10:34 AM
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Default Re: Manao Rail System

I heard about this the first time about a month ago, as my wife was there for a transit conference. We have light rail here and it rocks. So much nicer than a bus. Nearness to the new line that just went in was one of the reasons we bought our current house. Between that and biking we fill up our car tanks about once a month now, which sure is nice with the prices the way they are.
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  #15  
Old July 26th, 2006, 11:55 AM
Miulang Miulang is offline
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Default Re: Manao Rail System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bard
I heard about this the first time about a month ago, as my wife was there for a transit conference. We have light rail here and it rocks. So much nicer than a bus. Nearness to the new line that just went in was one of the reasons we bought our current house. Between that and biking we fill up our car tanks about once a month now, which sure is nice with the prices the way they are.
Yes, I have to agree, MAX is a very nice system. It was planned out very well and appears to have been accepted by lots of locals (parking in downtown Portland sucks anyway! ). In Seattle, we had incompetents planning the expansion of the monorail within the City of Seattle, but our new intercity light rail system is almost ready to roll, after inconveniencing lots of people for over 3 years now. It'll probably be used by people who now sit on the freeways for hours trying to travel 30 miles to work.

Miulang
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  #16  
Old July 26th, 2006, 12:29 PM
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Default Re: Rail Transit

Several prior threads are available for background. See also:
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  #17  
Old July 26th, 2006, 01:29 PM
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Default Re: Rail Transit

Recently from Honolulu Traffic.com's website:

Quote:

July 20, 2006.

Neighborhood Boards can take action on rail:


Neighborhood Board members are beginning to take notice of the negative impacts that rail transit will have on their communities both from being a financial drain and a producer of visual and noise blight. To help in this effort we have posted, with Senator Fred Hemmings' help, a proforma resolution below that could be adopted by any Neighborhood Board.


Waikiki Neighborhood Board turns down rail:

Last week's meeting of the Waikiki Neighborhood turned down rail in Waikiki with a vote of 15-1.



July 19, 2006.

Parsons Brinckerhoff concedes $4 billion + for rail:

During a presentation today to the annual Kailua Chamber of Commerce luncheon, Parsons Brinckerhoff's Lawrence Spurgeon said that the earlier $3 billion projection for rail transit given last month did not include a number of items such as trains and rights-of-way. He said that by the time all the costs were included the final price would be in excess of $4 billion.

He also revealed that they had a preliminary estimate of $1 billion for a 13-mile, two-lane HOT lanes (aka Managed Lanes) alternative, or $38 million per lane-mile. While that is a dramatic reduction from earlier city estimates of $100 million per lane-mile it is still far in excess of the $15 million per lane-mile that Tampa has cost.
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  #18  
Old July 26th, 2006, 02:01 PM
Bard Bard is offline
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Default Re: Manao Rail System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miulang
Yes, I have to agree, MAX is a very nice system. It was planned out very well and appears to have been accepted by lots of locals (parking in downtown Portland sucks anyway! ).
Actually many locals fought against it tooth and nail, and some still do when a new line is getting ready to go in. Give it a few months, and people almost always turn around and talk about how great it is.

Even my parents are starting to come around. They were always happy there was no public transit in their suburb of Dallas because "it keeps the undesirables from living there". Now when we come visit we can get about 70% of the way from the airport to their house (a good hour trip each way!) on rail and they still have to come pick us up from about 20 minutes away.
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  #19  
Old October 31st, 2006, 02:40 PM
joshuatree joshuatree is offline
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Default latest transit price tag

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/ap...WS09/610310344

http://starbulletin.com/2006/10/31/news/story01.html

Does this change people's position on for or against the rail?
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  #20  
Old October 31st, 2006, 09:51 PM
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Default Re: Rail Transit

I am opposed to rail in Honolulu. I think the money could be better spent fixing the current bottlenecks, which are H-1 at Middle St. and H-1/Moanalua Frwy at Aloha stadium.

To address the Middle St. bottleneck, we can convert Dillingham Blvd and part of Vineyard Blvd into an expressway. That would create an entirely new expressway from the H-1 Vineyard off-ramp to the H-1 airport viaduct.

Second, to address the Aloha stadium bottleneck, we need a new expressway running from the Ewa end of the H-1 viaduct that would go under or over Pearl Harbor to Ewa Beach and then on to Kapolei.

These projects are doable for 4 billion dollars, and will serve alot more people than a rail system that will serve only a minority population of Oahu.

New expressways will benefit the extreme majority of citizens who choose to own a car and prefer to own a car. Not to mention our tourists who rent a car to see the sites and go to the beach. It will also benefit mass transit riders since TheBus can use the new less congestred roads. Also, new highways will benfit commerce and industry where rail will do nothing for them.

I think Mufi is blinded by the "roads and cars are evil" mindset.

Last edited by mapen; October 31st, 2006 at 10:01 PM.
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  #21  
Old November 1st, 2006, 04:13 AM
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GeckoGeek GeckoGeek is offline
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Default Re: Rail Transit

Quote:
Originally Posted by mapen View Post
I think the money could be better spent fixing the current bottlenecks, which are H-1 at Middle St. and H-1/Moanalua Frwy at Aloha stadium.
I think a good way to address that is to close Moanalua Frwy. Yes, I'm serious. It's the merging of Moanalua Frwy with H-1 that creates the bottleneck. Merging is a serious problem. I would propose closing H-1, but I don't think that would work, so I'm suggesting Moanalua instead. Of course you need to widen H-1 so it's at least 3 lanes all the way.

The next step is to improve the off ramps so they can take what the freeway delivers.
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  #22  
Old November 1st, 2006, 05:19 AM
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Default Re: Rail Transit

If you are opposed to the rail project and the increased taxes (set to kick in a mere 61 days), go to HonoluluTraffic.com. Read the information and sign up as a supporter for "no rail."

Or simply email your name to join@honolulutraffic.com

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  #23  
Old November 1st, 2006, 12:56 PM
Bard Bard is offline
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Default Re: Rail Transit

Quote:
Originally Posted by mapen View Post
I think Mufi is blinded by the "roads and cars are evil" mindset.
Take a look at Europe -- covered in rail. Most people I know love going to Europe because they don't have to rent a car. More cars and more roads *are* evil in a lot of ways.

On the other hand... .5% GET increase. Yowza. That's one heck of an expensive project they're proposing.
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Old November 1st, 2006, 06:17 PM
joshuatree joshuatree is offline
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Default Re: Rail Transit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bard View Post
Take a look at Europe -- covered in rail. Most people I know love going to Europe because they don't have to rent a car. More cars and more roads *are* evil in a lot of ways.

On the other hand... .5% GET increase. Yowza. That's one heck of an expensive project they're proposing.
I'd say take the project to an even bigger level. Don't just make it a public transit infrastructure project but make it an urban development project. They should plan to build low income condos right on top of certain stations. The income from selling or renting out the units would help defray the cost of the transit. And by placing homes right at the stations, you're encouraging people to avoid/give up car ownership. And they should allow advertising to be done only at the stations. Given that Oahu pretty much has a ban on outdoor advertising (no billboards etc), there's bound to be a market for advertising. That's another source of revenue you can get. Even sell naming rights to stations to corporate sponsers. This is one of those projects that won't succeed unless you've hit critical mass.
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  #25  
Old November 3rd, 2006, 04:51 AM
Karen Karen is offline
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Default Re: Rail Transit

NO to the rail! I am not going to use it and don't want to pay for it. Everytime they tell us what something on this island will cost, it costs way more, probably cuz of the sometimes absurd union wages.

Building highways above all already existing highways is the way to go, it clutters less of the island and we all get to still use our cars.

No one but one bus rider that I know has said that they are going to use the rail. Where to park to meet the rail, then get back to their car, then stop at the store, and do errands on the way home, nope.....what is going to happen years from now is we may have a very expensive rail system and they'll be begging us to use it.

Most of us like our cars, the privacy and freedom they afford us to do things on our schedules, not the system's, and we are not going to park our cars and stop using them.

To hell with rail....
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