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  • Tax Hike for Rail?

    The real conundrum for residents and taxpayers of Hawai'i is that you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you don't want to fund light rail or some other form of public transportation and then don't use it once it's built, you will forever be doomed to griping about crowded roads and long commutes, which will result in your paying more for gas, frayed nerves and increase your blood pressure.

    People of the East Coast consider public transportation as a fact of life because it's so crowded and costs more to live there. People on the West Coast have almost the same mentality as the people in Hawai'i, where we wouldn't be caught dead on a bus or train if we can drive our cars.

    But for the public good, the voters in the State of Washington have approved funding for a regional light rail system and in the City of Seattle, we've approved expanding our monorail line three times over the last 8 years! Yes, it increases my property tax, but I think that's the price I pay for living in this city and wanting it to remain a good place to live. I would probably take a train to get to work (I commute 50 miles a day) to eliminate the cost of fuel and the hassles with traffic.

    Using the excise tax as a way to pay for this is probably not the best way to go about it, though, because it most impacts the lower income people, although they would be the ones who would get the most benefit from it.

    Miulang

    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/ar.../ln/ln07p.html
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  • #2
    Re: New public transportation will raise taxes

    "Using the excise tax as a way to pay for this is probably not the best way to go about it"

    Ain't that the truth.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: New public transportation will raise taxes

      Here's a very thoughtful piece by Advertiser Transportation report Mike Leidemann about why public transportation, whether it benefits you directly or not, is a good idea. It's all about paying the price for living in a civilized society, something that many people are losing sight of as they burrow further into their own little coocoons.

      If you have a car and use any of the State roads, remember that people who don't own cars helped pay for them. If you have kids in public school, remember that the people who don't have kids are helping educate them.

      Miulang
      "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: New public transportation will raise taxes

        An excellent piece to make a basic point. Things are probably skewed overall against independently wealthy single people who don't drive, but... that's the cost of "government."

        I'm not convinced an excise tax increase is the way to go (though just hiking it to 5 percent even, with exemptions for food and medicine, would certainly make day-to-day math easier!), but I know that a rail system will cost big bucks. Some way to assess people most likely to benefit would probably ease some of the "it won't help me" belly-aching. But once you start making fine adjustments like that, you're more likely to get complaints about exceptions.

        A mileage tax? Turning the airport segment of H-1 into a toll road? Not attractive options.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: New public transportation will raise taxes

          Whether you use it or not, whether it will benefit you or not, the residents of the City and County of Honolulu will get a light rail system to ease traffic congestion. The only issue left is how to pay for it. If it's not through an increase in excise taxes (nobody's favorite) or increased gasoline, property or hotel taxes, the Legislature has to come up with a way to fund the project.

          Depending on what the City and County of Honolulu do, other counties might follow suit. All islands need some form of scheduled public transportation to help ease the horrible traffic congestion.

          Miulang
          "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: New public transportation will raise taxes



            WHAT: Protest against the City's disinformational meeting.

            WHY: We need to protest this shibai of a 25% hike in the GE tax rate from 4 to 5%.

            WHEN: Monday, February 28, 2005, meet at 7:00am, then stay as long as you can up to 8:30 am.

            WHERE: Memorial Auditorium, which is the brick building adjacent to City Hall on the Diamond Head side.

            SIGNS: We will have signs, or you can make your own.

            MORE INFORMATION: http://www.honolulutraffic.com


            State legislators are talking about the tax hike bill as a Home Rule issue for the counties. That is pure shibai; the counties can raise money through the gas tax and property taxes. State legislators just want to make it easy for Councilmembers. And the money cannot be used for repairing POTHOLES?

            The Tax Foundation has calculated the tax hike effect as $900 annually for an average family of four. This much money is needed since the feds will only finance $500 million, or 19% of its cost.

            This is a Summit that the City is having as an Informational Briefing for members of the State Legislature, Business and Community Leaders, and media representatives. We are protesting both the tax and that our suggestions, that are working elsewhere, for reducing traffic congestion, are not on the agenda. Is this open and transparent?

            Other sponsors are OMPO and a new outfit called CBT (the Committee for Balanced Transportation) a same old, same old group run by a collection of City employees and City consultants at least one of whom has been fined for illegal campaign contributions.

            This might be known in the future as "The Gods Must Be Crazy Summit."

            Please let us know as soon as possible if you will be here with us and who you have convinced to take part.

            Call 545-4495 or email to: info@honolulutraffic.com
            Mel adds: Liberals, rail transit supporters, Robin Hoods, tax and spend red diaper doper babies need not apply.

            ________________________________

            Caution: This is a liberal inundation zone.
            Last edited by mel; February 26, 2005, 09:00 AM. Reason: adding stuff
            I'm still here. Are you?

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: New public transportation will raise taxes

              Mel on this situation I have to agree with you. I don't want the GET to be
              increased to pay for rail transit. They need to find other solutions to traffic
              mess than spending billions on rail transit.
              Check out my blog on Kona issues :
              The Kona Blog

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: New public transportation will raise taxes

                Here's one onerous solution guaranteed to make people wish they had public transportation: Make your gas tax double what it is today and then see how many people start thinking about taking public transportation. Once gas prices hit $4.00 or so a gallon, then people will stop and think about it. Those who are well off will still drive their SUVs (mainly because they can afford the gas), but the average Honolulu driver is gonna be huhu. Oh wait, your Legislature just passed a gas cap, didn't they? Well, forget about gas taxes subsidizing this light rail system, then.

                It's already a done deal: the Feds and your State government want more public transportation. You guys just have to fight over how you're going to pay for it.

                Up here, we're being taxed up the ying yang for a new light rail system for King Co. AND a monorail system for Seattle. Even though I would probably use neither (I work about 25 miles away from home and they aren't planning to put a light rail terminal anywhere near my workplace, so I would have to bike to work from the terminal or take another bus to get to work), I still voted for the taxes and I'm not complaining about it either. The State has also put together a rule that says "x" amount of your workers either have to be on flextime or take public transportation or your company gets assessed higher taxes to pay for roads (I think it may also be a Federal mandate). I work 10 hour days so I get every Friday off, and that's how I helped my company qualify for commuter tax credits. Yes, it's pretty tough doing business in Washington, too.

                Miulang
                "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: New public transportation will raise taxes

                  Originally posted by Miulang
                  Here's one onerous solution guaranteed to make people wish they had public transportation: Make your gas tax double what it is today and then see how many people start thinking about taking public transportation. Once gas prices hit $4.00 or so a gallon, then people will stop and think about it.

                  I still voted for the taxes and I'm not complaining about it either.

                  Miulang
                  It's easy for you to advocate more taxes for Hawaii because 1. you don't live here and 2. you won't have to pay Hawaii taxes as long as you don't come here.

                  I am not surprised a bleeding heart liberal like you will advocate and actually vote for more taxes. I guess you have extremely deep pockets and can afford to absorb the increased cost of living government unleashes on you.

                  More new taxes are not good for Hawaii. Liberals don't get this. They can easily absorb the higher cost of living through more taxes.

                  ________________________________

                  Caution: This is a liberal inundation zone.

                  I'm still here. Are you?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: New public transportation will raise taxes

                    Originally posted by mel
                    It's easy for you to advocate more taxes for Hawaii because 1. you don't live here and 2. you won't have to pay Hawaii taxes as long as you don't come here.

                    I am not surprised a bleeding heart liberal like you will advocate and actually vote for more taxes. I guess you have extremely deep pockets and can afford to absorb the increased cost of living government unleashes on you.

                    More new taxes are not good for Hawaii. Liberals don't get this. They can easily absorb the higher cost of living through more taxes.
                    Yeah, and when I fly to Maui tomorrow and pick up my rental car, these are the taxes I will pay: $27.00 "Hawaii rental surcharge", "concessionaire/permitee fee", $13.77, and a "sales tax" of $7.65, or a total of $48.42 --a little more than 21% of the total bill. Good thing I'm staying with my parents, because if I had to stay at a hotel, the State and Maui County would tack another 25% or so to that hotel bill for various fees and taxes.

                    I pay a lot of taxes up here. Last year, I paid about $1,300 in property taxes. Our sales tax rate (your GES) for this county is 8.8%. We have about the highest gas taxes in the country. I don't have extremely deep pockets, but I make enough to be comfortable. The salary I make would also keep me comfortable in Hawai'i, if I didn't have to pay for housing. Mel, I'm not getting a free ride up here. I support public transportation because without it, lots of people who don't have cars wouldn't be able to get to work; those who are environmentally aware would hop into their cars and further pollute the environment. I supported a property tax increase so my local library could be rebuilt (it's gorgeous now, and widely used). I voted against a referendum calling for a rollback of property taxes because, frankly, I like my quality of life up here and I don't see how reducing taxes would enhance my life. I'm mad that this State's $2 billion biennial revenue gap is causing my local fire station to have to lay off a firefighter and make the firefighters who are left behind to be put into a more precarious situation when they are out on a call.

                    It's a social tax...the price of living in a civilized society. You free marketers are all about me-me-me-me, and "not in my back yard". Unfortunately, that ain't the way things work in the "real" world. Also, please don't go calling me a liberal. Back in my college days you could have called me that, maybe even called me a radical (after all, I did belong to the Students for a Democractic Society for about a month, in UTAH, of all places). I am now a pragmatic moderate realist, and I vote my conscience, rather than any political ideology because, frankly, there is no difference between the mainstream Dems and Republicans right now. And as for the neocons, they will have their comeuppance in 2006.

                    Miulang

                    P.S. Heehee! I just looked up the definition of a "liberal" and look what I found. Check out the second definition. Gee, Mel, that sure has hell sounds like you! So you're a liberal too (at the other end of the spectrum)
                    1. liberal, progressive -- (a person who favors a political philosophy of progress and reform and the protection of civil liberties)
                    2. liberal -- (a person who favors an economic theory of laissez-faire and self-regulating markets)
                    Last edited by Miulang; February 27, 2005, 07:17 AM.
                    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: New public transportation will raise taxes

                      I knew I was going to be slammed by you Miulang. What is wrong with looking out for ourselves first? Nothing. We know what to do with our personal funds more than what government does with the funds they consistently take away from us.

                      Call me a liberal or whatever (I consider myself a fiscal conservative) but then again it is all a term.

                      Moderate or whatever, your long string of posts here at HawaiiThreads are generally anti-American, anti-business, pro-tax (take more money away from individuals so people cannot afford to live comfortably but instead always have to sacrifice personal income for socialistic, expensive government programs such as fixed rail).

                      Hawaii has enough social taxes perpetuated by 40+ years of Democrat party rule in the legislature (still continuing) and the executive branch (up to 2002). We have enough taxes, and you know it. Hawaii citizens cannnot continually to afford to pay more.

                      But you Democrats, liberals and moderates leaning toward more taxes (you) just don't understand how painful it is to have to give up more of our personal income to involuntarily pay for more government, more programs and whatever you liberals love to perpetuate on us who are just trying to hold on to what we have.

                      Yeah, and when I fly to Maui tomorrow and pick up my rental car, these are the taxes I will pay: $27.00 "Hawaii rental surcharge", "concessionaire/permitee fee", $13.77, and a "sales tax" of $7.65, or a total of $48.42 --a little more than 21% of the total bill.....
                      There you go. Why do you bitch about these taxes when liberals and moderates that you probably support are the very ones who levied these taxes through legislation upon us? It was the Democrats who voted in the car rental surchage, the general excise tax and the transient accomodations tax upon us through the years. We did not have some of these taxes a while back.

                      When is enough enough???

                      Last year the Democrat legislature socked it to us with the damn bottle tax.

                      This year the following tax increases are being proposed:

                      * General Excise Tax Increase of 25% to pay for mass transit that we cannot afford.

                      * The Democrat Mayor of the City and County proposing to increase sewer fees because the previous Democrat mayor raped the sewer fund (used for maintenance and upgrades of the system) to build fancy smancy monuments and unneeded projects for his legacy throughout the city.

                      * The possibility of all residents of older condos having to be forced to install very expensive fire sprinkler upgrades while property taxes still increase and only a miniscule tax credit is given to offset the expense.

                      * The possibility of more taxes and more fees coming down the pipeline in future years.

                      Hawaii's taxpayer incomes are not increasing by 25% or even less to pay for these new taxes and fees.

                      When is enough enough? When do we say "STOP RAPING OUR WALLETS"?

                      I am sick of the cumulative effect tax increases that are constantly perpetuated by the Democrats, liberals and misguided moderates. It is time for us to stop the bleeding today. Save our funds, put it to our own personal use. There is nothing wrong with thinking "me first". Nothing.

                      ________________________________

                      Caution: This is a liberal inundation zone.

                      Last edited by mel; February 27, 2005, 08:27 AM.
                      I'm still here. Are you?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: New public transportation will raise taxes

                        Mel, after I read your latest posting if we had a school tax like they have
                        on parts of the mainland you'd probably be complaining why do I have to
                        pay this tax, I don't have kids.

                        I'm not trying to knock you, but there is things we have to pay for the society overall.No man is island, your not the only person who lives here. There is billions of different people who live on this earth. Your opinion is not better than other peoples. Nor is other peoples opinions better than yours.
                        But it does help to listen to other peoples view.It is simply not beneficial
                        to rip other peoples opinion just because they are a liberal, a communist etc.

                        It is frankly really sad to see your unwilling to listen or even justify your
                        views. You just simply bash the conflicting view as liberal. I know your
                        probably going to say I'm an idiot or I'm lecturing you again. But I have
                        noticed a very obvious pattern with your postings.
                        Check out my blog on Kona issues :
                        The Kona Blog

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: New public transportation will raise taxes

                          Originally posted by mel

                          There you go. Why do you bitch about these taxes when liberals and moderates that you probably support are the very ones who levied these taxes through legislation upon us? It was the Democrats who voted in the car rental surchage, the general excise tax and the transient accomodations tax upon us through the years. We did not have some of these taxes a while back.
                          Oh Mel, you rightest LIBERAL, you! I wasn't complaining about the taxes I'm paying on my rental car; I only used it as an example of how I, as a "tourist", am supporting the State of Hawai'i and Mau'i County by paying a 21% excise fee for the right to drive on your roads. If I had stayed in a hotel, I would be giving the State and Maui County 25% to use however they choose to use it; I have no say in how they use what they collect from me. The residents of the State of Hawai'i and the cities and counties are the ones who have the power to decide where that money goes, so rather than just bitching about it or resigning yourselves to your high taxes, you should continue to do what you're doing: trying to organize people to stop what you call the "madness" of taxation.

                          I'm telling you, whether you like it or want it or not, you WILL have more public transportation shoved down your throat, mainly because more people think about the public good for their community than you do. Your only battle will be how to fund it.

                          OK, you say that the liberals and moderates are taxing the hell out of people so they can't live a decent life. Well, what about the neocons taking away American citizens' basic freedoms (as in the Bill of Rights)? Ever since the current Administration was elected the first time (and especially after 9/11), there have been constant assaults on personal freedom so that everytime you turn around, you now have Big Brother watching you. Do you like that? I don't. I am not anti-American (no moreso than you are), but I am certainly the loyal opposition, which is what you need in a free society, because if everybody thought the way you did, we wouldn't have a democracy anymore, would we?

                          Miulang
                          Last edited by Miulang; February 27, 2005, 02:11 PM.
                          "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: New public transportation will raise taxes

                            BTW, Mel, two of the examples that you gave above are good examples of what happens when people aren't watching the wolf that's guarding the henhouse:

                            * The Democrat Mayor of the City and County proposing to increase sewer fees because the previous Democrat mayor raped the sewer fund (used for maintenance and upgrades of the system) to build fancy smancy monuments and unneeded projects for his legacy throughout the city.
                            Something has to be done about the aging infrastructure in Honolulu. I just read this morning that there was a 3rd sewer leak in Niu Valley (the 3rd this month) because the pipe is corroded. Why isn't there a hew and cry to indict Harris for thievery? Why are you blaming Mufi for trying to correct the problem? Would you rather continue having sewer breaks constantly that make people huhu because of the traffic diversions? do you think if a Republican was elected that your sewers wouldn't break?

                            * The possibility of all residents of older condos having to be forced to install very expensive fire sprinkler upgrades while property taxes still increase and only a miniscule tax credit is given to offset the expense.
                            I'm sorry that your State government (or maybe it's the City's problem and therefore only Mufi's administration's problem now) isn't giving building owners a bigger tax break to fix fire code violations. I don't know if you remember the MGM Grand Fire in Las Vegas about 10 years ago? How many people got killed in those high rise buildings? Do you live in one of those older condo buildings? It's a very important thing to keep people safe from fires. It's also not my fault that property taxes in Hawai'i are rising at an accelerated rate. Blame that on the desirability of your location and the greedy developers who want to make a fast killing in the market and then leave town with their profits. If this bothers you, then go lobby your legislature for greater tax relief for fire safety upgrades. Don't just kvetch about it. I'm on the board of a homeowners association, too, and I know we have to follow the fire codes. My fellow Board members and I are responsible for the lives of occupants of 44 units in our building. I certainly wouldn't want to be caught in a multistory building without active fire sensors, and in a high rise, a sprinkler system is probably required because your fire dept. probably doesn't have ladders that can go high up enough the side of a building to effectively fight a high rise fire or rescue anyone. If the tax breaks aren't available, most capital projects are amortized over a number of years, and that can be taken off the individual unit owners' income tax bill. If you truly mean a condo and not a hotel or apartment building, then all the owners are responsible for the safety of the building and its occupants. Owners get assessed for things like new roofs and elevators that are in common use, so everyone pays for a share.

                            Miulang
                            Last edited by Miulang; February 27, 2005, 07:01 PM.
                            "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: New public transportation will raise taxes

                              Just as I expected. Another slam from the liberal leaning moderate tax and spend Miulang. And another lecture from Aaron, even though I never addressed anything he posted here..... Geez. Liberals just hate conservatives and anyone who wants to keep their own money in their own wallet.

                              Repeat, there is nothing wrong with thinking about ourselves first, especially when it comes to our money that we all bust ass to work for.

                              Our wallets and bank accounts are forever doomed in Hawaii as long as the agenda perpetuated by liberals and Democrats continue to dominate Hawaii politics.

                              That train tax makes me absolutely sick.

                              Every fiscally conservative opinion is slammed by the maniacal tax and spend liberals and their moderate friends. That is why there are hardly any conservatives on this board. They are slammed by the liberal majority who pepper the politically charged topics with their ongoing speil. This is a liberal inundation zone for sure. All they want is government to take away more of your personal income.

                              Take away, take away, take away, take away. It's sickening.

                              We already pay enough taxes to support schools, roads, parks and other government services.

                              None of us can afford more taxes to pay for fixed rail that only 10% of Oahu's population will use and no one on the neighbor islands will benefit from. Hell, people in urban Honolulu, the Windward side and North Shore will not benefit one iota from the rail tax.

                              It is sickening. At least the taxes for schools get spread around to all of the public schools in every district throughout the state. The rail tax only benefits a sliver of the population within a set corridor. No one else.


                              ________________________________

                              Caution: This is a liberal inundation zone.
                              I'm still here. Are you?

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