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  • Is college a bust?

    Saddling kids with a lifetime of dept as schools price higher education out of reach for most is not the best way for society's future. For many, physically being in classes with 50+ students and little personal interaction with the teacher is a dead end, especially when it can often all be done online for cheap. Many say basically forcing kids into college for a sometimes worthless piece of paper is yet another scam. Where are the jobs? School's cost so much because many have too much bogus-need costs.
    https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

  • #2
    Re: Is college a bust?

    Originally posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    School's cost so much because many have too much bogus-need costs.
    Such as, examples of what you are referring to? The concept of college being a "bust" and "dead end" is an interesting topic for you to introduce .... more details please.
    Now run along and play, but don’t get into trouble.

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    • #3
      Re: Is college a bust?

      I'm funding a nursing student in the Philippines. It's less than half the cost of my B.S. back in the 70s. My buddy went to the Military Medical School - got paid to get his MD. There are viable options, even for professional degrees.

      Yet, I'd never advise higher education for unmotivated students, even were it free.
      Last edited by salmoned; May 30, 2011, 07:19 PM.
      May I always be found beneath your contempt.

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      • #4
        Re: Is college a bust?

        Originally posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
        For many, physically being in classes with 50+ students and little personal interaction with the teacher is a dead end, especially when it can often all be done online for cheap. Many say basically forcing kids into college for a sometimes worthless piece of paper is yet another scam. Where are the jobs? .
        I would like to respond to this statement in the context as a former university professor.

        Personal interaction with the professor is always available and encouraged for those students who need it and want it, from my experience. Unfortunately, most students do not avail themselves of this important and valuable service. My students were encouraged to be self-motivated, self-reliant, and self-responsible. I was not going to "force" students to see me during my office hours and spoon feed them information. If students didn't want one-on-one help, then that was their choice.

        AND

        I do not perceive the primary reason for a higher education is to get a
        "good job." In my view, the primary purpose of a higher education is to make one a more self-reliant and well rounded individual by learning analytical skills and research techniques, exposure to different ways of thinking, and introduction to endless possibilities for personal growth.

        FINALLY

        My higher education degrees are not "worthless pieces of paper." They are some of my most prized and proudest possessions.
        Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

        People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

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        • #5
          Re: Is college a bust?

          Originally posted by Amati View Post
          Such as, examples of what you are referring to?
          It's wide ranging, from waste, to hidden costs, to blatant costs like our own UH head not living in the mansion provided but tacking on extra expense for her home of choice, to state-of-the-art climbing walls http://www.whitman.edu/content/outdo.../rock-climbing

          It's a subject I've long entertained and it seems to be a country-wide topic now that the serious pinch is on. To get a better and broader idea of the controversy than I can express here, google - college waste of time money.

          Per mata:
          Personal interaction with the professor is always available for those who want it.
          ~I do not perceive the primary reason for a higher education is to get a
          "good job."
          ~My higher education degrees are not "worthless pieces of paper."

          Nowday's that's not always so true, classroom counts can now number in hundreds.

          The vast majority of kids thinking of higher ed., I'm hearing them say to that... HUH?!

          I submit - http://blogs.ajc.com/mike-luckovich/...ege-graduates/
          Another I saw this week had grads being handed unemployment applications instead of diplomas.

          Sure, there are still viable reasons for college and many needs for actually being there, but for many others a diploma can be had in the comfort of pajamas with a computer, for others it's not even needed. Broadcasting for example, a huge and diverse industry that can pay well and has upward mobility, CAN be had with 0 education. And in the case of our current hate media, way less, some aren't even human.
          https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

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          • #6
            Re: Is college a bust?

            Originally posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
            Sure, there are still viable reasons for college and many needs for actually being there, but for many others a diploma can be had in the comfort of pajamas with a computer, for others it's not even needed. Broadcasting for example, a huge and diverse industry that can pay well and has upward mobility, CAN be had with 0 education. And in the case of our current hate media, way less, some aren't even human.
            You continue to frame your argument in the context of the ONLY purpose for higher education is to get a "good" job. Unfortunately, there are many who agree with you. If that is your only purpose for a higher education, then my recommendation is not to do it, not even on-line correspondence school. My experience is that those who came to my institution for that purpose, generally did not do well in school, often blaming the instructor for their poor grades. They were easy to spot. I submit that there are much more viable reasons for higher education than job prospects.
            Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

            People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

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            • #7
              Re: Is college a bust?

              u sed...
              the primary purpose of a higher education is to make one a more self-reliant and well rounded individual by learning analytical skills and research techniques, exposure to different ways of thinking, and introduction to endless possibilities for personal growth.
              While those are certainly worthy aspects, what 18 yr. old is going to spend 50+K and x # of years in search of them, or convince daddy to allow it? Those should come with the overall college ed experience, no? But please expound, it's valuable perspective/commentary.
              https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

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              • #8
                Re: Is college a bust?

                Originally posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
                While those are certainly worthy aspects, what 18 yr. old is going to spend 50+K and x # of years in search of them, or convince daddy to allow it? Those should come with the overall college ed experience, no? But please expound, it's valuable perspective/commentary.
                Ahhhhh, pull up a chair Ron and let's explore the universe together. A MIND IS A CANDLE TO BE LIT, NOT A BUCKET TO BE FILLED.

                In my experience (which does not make it a universal truth but merely a perspective to be pondered) the most successful students are those who come to higher education with no idea of what they want to do with the rest of their lives. Yes, some do enter higher education with specific job goals and matriculate successfully, but those 18 y.o.'s who don't have that job goal are in the majority. The idea is that you spend a couple of years in a liberal arts program sampling various courses. Students come away with distinct opinions about various academic disciplines (I hate math, I love botany, history puts me to sleep, I never knew you could do that with a computer......for example). Then the student fills the last two years developing their major. I have seen students graduating with a degree in engineering and a minor in interior decoration or a degree in political science and a minor in architectural history. The possibilities are endless! Pursuit of their academic interests becomes a passion not simply a means to get a job. Often many of them become so consumed in their passion they will continue on to graduate school. If I may offer an example from my own background, consider this. In high school, I had a classmate whose name is Bob. He was an average student at best, screwing around and not paying attention. His goal was to get through high school the easiest way possible and if was possible to take 8 periods of "study hall", he would have done it. I lost track of him after high school graduation until 30 years later. I was shocked to learn that he lived about 30 miles from me and he was now Dr. Bob with a PHD in Physics and a rocket scientist, a real rocket scientist! During higher education, someone or something had lit his candle......a little late, but it now burns brightly! Physics is his passion! Ron, think about all the permutations that are possible.

                Students enter fields they would have never considered in high school. They not only graduate from college with a degree in a specific field but interests in other fields. This interest in other fields often acts as a safety valve when they learn that the job they got after graduation is not really what they wanted or liked and so they activate that "safety valve" and enter enter into their other passion(s). Matapule's uaifi is a perfect example of that scenario.

                As far as cost, I can't speak for Hawai'i, but higher education can be very affordable in California through the Community College and State University systems and you will get a darn good education if you have an open mind (Dr. Bob went that route before getting scholarships to graduate school). In fact, I know many people who work 40 hours a week in an interim job, carry a full academic load, and graduate on time with honors and no debt and no loans (ahem.......matapule kicks a can.......well darn it my candle was burning with a passionate, white hot heat; it was more like a bonfire! ).

                So, Ron, there is a brief introduction on my perspective on why college is not a bust. I have some kindling and a couple of matches here, care to give it a try?
                Last edited by matapule; May 31, 2011, 01:58 PM.
                Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

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                • #9
                  Re: Is college a bust?

                  Good stuff. I've agreed with your overall points the whole time, but need to explore the many sides of this issue that I've recently seen come into quasi-popularity even tho I've entertained it for decades. I hardly expect anyone entering college from HS to have their goals fully outlined and set in stone, altho many do. I sure couldn't have and still couldn't. I think parents are culpable in regimenting kids into focusing on one path as a means to quicker success without diversions and distractions because they usually are footing the bill. The colleges probably have $ and enrollment quota incentive to promote this. But 'they' say the average person goes thru 6 careers in the average lifetime, so there's plenty of room for changes once they're free from that parental control, and some become so entranced with school being a student becomes their career. Our likes/desires/perspectives constantly evolve so the broad stroke of learning does have much merit, but it often meets resistance early on, we're trained to pick a career and laser in on only that.
                  To ramble further would take me above my 6th grade education nut, and I'd never pretend to be deep into the particulars of high ed, but we know that colleges have monetary agendas that aren't always in students best interests and generating the big bux is big business for them. College sports is another part of the battle where schoolin' isn't the priority, there is lot's of $ tossed around and corruption is fairly rampant. I think we'll be seeing great changes in the whole scene quite soon, the bubble is about to burst and things will be evolving, hopefully in student's of all class levels favor. Some of the strongest minds come from middle and even poverty levels, and we've missed out on too much of that by not making cheap but fine ed available.
                  https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

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                  • #10
                    Re: Is college a bust?

                    Originally posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
                    The colleges probably have $ and enrollment quota incentive to promote this.
                    I'm not sure what you mean by this. Many private institutions have endowments they try to reach, but I'm not sure what you mean by "quotas."

                    But 'they' say the average person goes thru 6 careers in the average lifetime,
                    The statistics can be interpreted in a number of different ways.

                    we're trained to pick a career and laser in on only that.
                    Who trains that? We're only limited by the limitations we place on ourselves.

                    but we know that colleges have monetary agendas that aren't always in students best interests and generating the big bux is big business for them.
                    Perhaps that is true of a few private institutions, but on the whole, higher education is geared toward the best interests of the student and giving them the best education possible within the financial limitations of the institution.

                    Some of the strongest minds come from middle and even poverty levels, and we've missed out on too much of that by not making cheap but fine ed available.
                    From my experience, strong and weak minds know no socio-economic boundaries.

                    Inexpensive and fine education are not mutually exclusive and is still abundantly available.
                    Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                    People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Is college a bust?

                      Originally posted by matapule View Post
                      I'm not sure what you mean by "quotas."

                      The statistics can be interpreted in a number of different ways.

                      Who trains that? We're only limited by the limitations we place on ourselves.

                      Perhaps true of private institutions, but higher ed is geared toward the best interests of the student

                      strong and weak minds know no socio-economic boundaries.

                      Inexpensive/fine education are not mutually exclusive and still abundant.
                      They have to fill seats/'the bank'

                      On average, it's true

                      Parents/family/teachers/society

                      On the face of it, but it's become a people mill

                      See "some"
                      Status plays too a big role, just getting a great education is often down the list of priorities
                      https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

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                      • #12
                        Re: Is college a bust?

                        Spend Your College Tuition on Being Mentored and Starting a Company
                        After three years of sitting next to folks at $35K a year for $100K, you give your child $50K to start a company and you’re in for $150K. That’s probably $100K less than you would spend on a private school all in.

                        If someone wants me to mentor this kid for $25K for nine months, I would donate the money to charity and let their kid literally sit next to me and come to meetings.

                        It would be better than spending money on college, right?

                        Maybe someone could make a website called Mentormykid.com and auction off slots for charity to the highest bidder? This wouldn’t just be for startups or Internet companies. What if your aspiring journalist, artist or filmmaker could pay for a mentorship? What would it be worth to have your kid sit next to Steven Spielberg or J.J. Abrams for a year: $100K, $250K? Oh yes, it would be.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Is college a bust?

                          Originally posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
                          They have to fill seats/'the bank'
                          That may be what you think and perceive, but I don't know of any institution of higher education that operates on that business model.

                          Parents/family/teachers/society
                          I disagree. We are responsible for ourselves. It is time society stops blaming someone else for their own condition. We are only limited by the limitations we place on ourselves. Thank about that, Ron. Expand your horizons.

                          On the face of it, but it's become a people mill
                          "On the face of it" is not necessarily an accurate assessment.

                          Status plays too a big role, just getting a great education is often down the list of priorities
                          I agree. Expensive, private college education is not necessarily the best education

                          Originally posted by pzarquon View Post
                          It would be better than spending money on college, right?
                          I disagree. High cost "internships" are not a well rounded education. I find that I am repeating myself frequently in this thread. The primary purpose of higher education is not to land a high paying job. The purpose of higher education is to create a well rounded individual who is adaptable in a rapidly changing world, one who is capable of seeing the forest, not just the trees.

                          One of the reasons for the problems in American Society today is that too many people don't understand the purpose of higher education. They go to college to increase their future bankroll. It is all about materialism rather than education. We wind up with graduates who are one dimensional. I vehemently disagree with the hypothesis proposed in the link posted by Ryan.
                          Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                          People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

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                          • #14
                            Re: Is college a bust?

                            Originally posted by matapule View Post
                            I don't know of any institution of higher education that operates on that business model.

                            We are responsible for ourselves, only limited by the limitations we place on ourselves.
                            Ron, expand your horizons.

                            "On the face of it" is not necessarily an accurate assessment.
                            If they don't bring in enuf $ to operate, what happens? It's a business.

                            You can't pin that soley on a kid, many have been regimed towards fitting in the hole cut for them. Many havn't even heard of what you're saying.
                            My childhood horizons were the broadest and wildest possible, especially for a po'boy. I lived the dream life as a kid with my surrounding cast, the only negs of that were that it's already all been done, so now what do I do?

                            Big schools are simply too big and not focused enuf on the rudiments of education, too spread out.
                            https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

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                            • #15
                              Re: Is college a bust?

                              Originally posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
                              If they don't bring in enuf $ to operate, what happens? It's a business.
                              Ron, they work off of alumnae endowments. In most cases, students don't nearly pay for the true cost of their education. Colleges, especially private colleges work off of alumnae contributions. I'm a contributor and if you have a college education, I hope you are too.

                              You can't pin that soley on a kid, many have been regimed towards fitting in the hole cut for them. Many havn't even heard of what you're saying.
                              And therein lies the crux of the problem!

                              My childhood horizons were the broadest and wildest possible, especially for a po'boy. I lived the dream life as a kid with my surrounding cast, the only negs of that were that it's already all been done, so now what do I do?
                              Ron, is your glass half full or half empty? You have yet to begin! Light your fire!

                              Big schools are simply too big and not focused enuf on the rudiments of education, too spread out.
                              Some yes, but many no.
                              Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                              People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

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