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  #76  
Old March 19th, 2009, 03:03 PM
Jewlipino Jewlipino is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

I don't think Sierra Club has an agenda beyond the EIS... but they might.

As for conspiracies, since I've been having fun with adages and know the ineptness of govt and business through personal and professional experience I submit to you Hanlon's Razor:

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

When it comes to HSF it really looks like the people running the show were used to getting their way by any means necessary, and miscalculated how much support the enviros and native hawaiian groups could muster in the face of that. Once they had committed to that course of action, instead of apologizing and agreeing to do the EIS they took the advice of their lawyers who prolly said something along the lines of "the issue is murky enough, we think we have a case and the backing of the governor, so push forward." So bad strategy, probably bad advice, bad handling of the situation after the Kaua'i incident. Simply put, stupid.
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  #77  
Old March 19th, 2009, 04:34 PM
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Frankie's Market Frankie's Market is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewlipino View Post
I don't think Sierra Club has an agenda beyond the EIS... but they might.
If not the Sierra Club, there are surely others who will carry on their battle to stop the HSF. But as you point out, you can't paint the various parties involved on this particular EIS debate with a broad brush. When you do, it's hard (if not downright impossible) to have a thoughtful and constructive dialogue on the matter when someone goes in with the attitude of you "either support the Superferry 100% or not at all. There is no gray area." Operating on this kind of "take it or leave it" proposition leaves no room for negotiation and compromise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewlipino View Post
When it comes to HSF it really looks like the people running the show were used to getting their way by any means necessary, and miscalculated how much support the enviros and native hawaiian groups could muster in the face of that..
Oh, it wouldn't be the first time that's happened. Remember that the combined efforts of the latter held up completion of the H-3 for more than 30 years. But in that case, it was the activists directly taking on the state. The state, unfortunately, wasn't going anywhere. Eventually, all of the legal challenges and appeals ran out and the freeway was built.

The Superferry is obviously another matter. In this case, time is the enemy of the state administration in its effort to keep the HSF afloat.
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  #78  
Old March 19th, 2009, 06:06 PM
Leo Lakio Leo Lakio is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by mel View Post
People either support the Superferry 100% or not at all. There is no gray area.
Not even the least bit true. Some of us have a mix of feelings about the issue, something that I guess was not evident from my posts here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mel View Post
I'm done with this thread. Go on and continue your Superferry bashing discussion.
These threads might be worth staying with if people could stay away from the bashing of each other; there's a hell of a lot of it on HT, which diminishes (imo) the value of the information and opinion being presented by all sides. I thank those here who have not sunk to that level.
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  #79  
Old March 19th, 2009, 08:05 PM
speedtek speedtek is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

According to Perry and Price it is the Maui Tomorrow and Kahalui Harbor Coalition that is doing all the damage. Who the hell are they? Supposedly they are backed by mainland and transplanted people (from the mainland) funds.
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  #80  
Old March 19th, 2009, 08:29 PM
Leo Lakio Leo Lakio is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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Originally Posted by speedtek View Post
According to Perry and Price it is the Maui Tomorrow and Kahalui Harbor Coalition that is doing all the damage. Who the hell are they? Supposedly they are backed by mainland and transplanted people (from the mainland) funds.
Those two groups were teamed with the Sierra Club in lawsuits to try to stop the SuperFerry several years ago. They both have websites that don't appear to have been updated for some time. I wonder where P+P get the Mainland connection that they are implying? Or if that's just sensationalist b.s.-ing? Anybody got any links or data to back up those claims?
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  #81  
Old March 19th, 2009, 09:04 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by mel View Post
People either support the Superferry 100% or not at all. There is no gray area. I'm done with this thread. Go on and continue your Superferry bashing discussion.
I agree with ya, Mel!!
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Last edited by helen; March 19th, 2009 at 09:24 PM. Reason: fixing the quote tag
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  #82  
Old March 19th, 2009, 11:48 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by speedtek View Post
According to Perry and Price it is the Maui Tomorrow and Kahalui Harbor Coalition that is doing all the damage. Who the hell are they? Supposedly they are backed by mainland and transplanted people (from the mainland) funds.
"I only funny you", but true. Somehow (EIS) for the Superferry only. Never mind NCL, Carnival, QEII, or other companies sailing between our Islands.
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  #83  
Old March 20th, 2009, 02:26 AM
Walkoff Balk Walkoff Balk is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Neighbor island residents appreciate the higher prices for imported goods. You can see the difference in prices from the advertisement by comparing the Oahu paper against a neighbor island paper with stores such as Longs, Foodland, and Star Market.
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  #84  
Old March 20th, 2009, 03:17 AM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by helen View Post
According to the Star Bulletin, the shutdown of the SuperFerry is for the short term, which might mean between now and June, which I think is when the EIS should be finished.
I haven't paid close attention, but I'm hearing some talk that the existing EIS may not be sufficient and they'll have to start all over again. I'm not sure what the deal is with that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by helen View Post
I suspect that once the EIS is done, the Sierra Club should not be factor in this, unless they find some other administrative stuff relating to the enivornment that got overlooked.
Maybe. Maybe not. I'm sure some envro-mental group will still protest. And I wouldn't be too surprised if someone came up with something they thought not right. If nothing else challenge the conclusions of the EIS.
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  #85  
Old March 20th, 2009, 03:33 AM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
I wonder where P+P get the Mainland connection that they are implying? Or if that's just sensationalist b.s.-ing? Anybody got any links or data to back up those claims?
Links no. Best I can remember is some things they've said in the past. At one time they had a list of people for one of the groups. They read the names. The ethnicity of the last names was quite different then what we're used to for a "local" group.

Then there was some "warrior" guy who had emailed them about this "pilau business". Some follow up showed that it was most likely a underaged kid whose family either recently came from the mainland or routinely traveled there.
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  #86  
Old March 20th, 2009, 11:21 AM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by mel View Post
People either support the Superferry 100% or not at all. There is no gray area. I'm done with this thread. Go on and continue your Superferry bashing discussion. More than likely by tomorrow it will all be over completely except for the blame, which will continue forever.
What an arbitrary and juvenile comment; we don't live in a black and white only world.
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  #87  
Old March 20th, 2009, 11:32 AM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Composite 2992 View Post
Executive Order 9066 was a law, too. Didn't make it right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by surlygirly View Post
Again, it's easy to have all the answers when you're sitting comfy. And who's talking about turning all of Hawaii into a concrete jungle? This is ONE case, ONE particular instance. Stay with this instance.
How is that more preposterous than comparing the adhering to the EIS requirement to legitimizing executive order 9066?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keanu View Post
What an arbitrary and juvenile comment; we don't live in a black and white only world.
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

Disclaimer: I don't believe anyone on these forums is a Sith Lord!
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  #88  
Old March 20th, 2009, 12:03 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkoff Balk View Post
Neighbor island residents appreciate the higher prices for imported goods. You can see the difference in prices from the advertisement by comparing the Oahu paper against a neighbor island paper with stores such as Longs, Foodland, and Star Market.
"oh no we DON`T", we have no choice but to pay higher prices...
SHIPPING COST,remember.
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  #89  
Old March 20th, 2009, 04:52 PM
Leo Lakio Leo Lakio is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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Originally Posted by GeckoGeek View Post
At one time they had a list of people for one of the groups. They read the names. The ethnicity of the last names was quite different then what we're used to for a "local" group.
That's a pretty flaky way to determine "local"-ness. Examples from my own circle of friends include people with the last names of Fern, Hayes, Miles and McMillan. Those don't sound particularly local, do they? But all of them are Kamehameha grads, with Hawaiian bloodlines.
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  #90  
Old March 20th, 2009, 04:59 PM
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leashlaws leashlaws is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
That's a pretty flaky way to determine "local"-ness. Examples from my own circle of friends include people with the last names of Fern, Hayes, Miles and McMillan. Those don't sound particularly local, do they? But all of them are Kamehameha grads, with Hawaiian bloodlines.
Your point is completely sound and accurate. Here's one from my world of long ago. My last name was "Williams" but we are full blooded Native American.
When the Episcopalian missionaries came to the reservations long long ago
they changed everyone's names to theirs. Our real name was Konadalow
which means bread (to sustain life).
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  #91  
Old March 20th, 2009, 11:02 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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Originally Posted by Keanu View Post
What an arbitrary and juvenile comment; we don't live in a black and white only world.
Oh, wait...I think you missed Mel's point. We do live in shades of gray. Problem is - this thread is dominated by people who's opinions are staunchly opposite. Hence the comment, and the reason that this thread is a verbal arm-wrestle!
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  #92  
Old March 20th, 2009, 11:22 PM
Leo Lakio Leo Lakio is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
That's a pretty flaky way to determine "local"-ness. Examples from my own circle of friends include people with the last names of Fern, Hayes, Miles and McMillan. Those don't sound particularly local, do they? But all of them are Kamehameha grads, with Hawaiian bloodlines.
Shame on me; I forgot HT's very own "Fergerstrom." Cannot get more local than him!
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  #93  
Old March 21st, 2009, 12:12 AM
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Frankie's Market Frankie's Market is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
That's a pretty flaky way to determine "local"-ness. Examples from my own circle of friends include people with the last names of Fern, Hayes, Miles and McMillan. Those don't sound particularly local, do they? But all of them are Kamehameha grads, with Hawaiian bloodlines.
Right off the top of my head, I can think of Holt, Ellis, Agard, Martin, Daines.

But what the heck? I thought the majority of KS grads have non-Hawaiian surnames, nowadays.
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  #94  
Old March 21st, 2009, 12:38 AM
Leo Lakio Leo Lakio is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

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Originally Posted by turtlegirl View Post
this thread is dominated by people who's opinions are staunchly opposite.
Indeed. Mel has often pointed out (accurately) that his conservative viewpoints are in the minority on HT. Heck, TG, he might even consider you to be a socialist, because you are in a union.

So, since the Mainland connections suggested by Perry & Price (good local names, those) appear to be without substantiation, back to HSF. I'm confused, based on the links and discussions here. First I read that HSF has decided to cease operations, then there has been suggestion that they would possibly resume after completion of a full EIS. Can anyone clarify further?
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  #95  
Old March 21st, 2009, 02:43 AM
Walkoff Balk Walkoff Balk is offline
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
These threads might be worth staying with if people could stay away from the bashing of each other; there's a hell of a lot of it on HT, which diminishes (imo) the value of the information and opinion being presented by all sides. I thank those here who have not sunk to that level.
You might feel like a referee at a professional wrestling match. Who was the local Japanese referee at 50th State Wrestling matches who used to gently tap the bad guy on the shoulder to stop doing that, when the guilty wrestler was obviously doing a cheating move in front of the crowd? The bad guy wasn't cheating because he shrug his shoulders and shook his head "no."

Last edited by Walkoff Balk; March 21st, 2009 at 02:44 AM. Reason: spelling
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  #96  
Old March 21st, 2009, 02:31 PM
Jewlipino Jewlipino is offline
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Default The latest lame justification

HSF supporters have been running around recently saying that since we don't make Young Brothers, Matson, or all the other and sundry ships that ply our waters do EIS's that HSF shouldn't have to do one either. This argument rubs me wrong in all sorts of ways. I think we should make everyone else do the EIS too, but a lot of them predate HEPA, and the HSF by dint of the dock modifications and other aspects of the service they provide make them particularly subject to HEPA.

Once again HSF die-hards are pushing the argument that just because someone else got away with not having to do an EIS that means NO ONE should have to do an EIS. They may not see it that way, but this is the same at-all-costs approach that got HSF's exemption ruled unconstitutional.

Do the EIS. Do it according to the law. Until then HSF should not operate in Hawaiian waters.

FB Group that likes to put words like unconstitutional in quotation marks (thus demonstrating their appalling disregard for our laws): http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...3959844&ref=nf

Keep it up so-called supporters, make it worse for HSF and Hawaii. The enviros and native haw'n groups are keeping an eye on this, and advocating for punching exemptions through HEPA makes for a great way to make them angry again. Nice strategy.
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  #97  
Old March 22nd, 2009, 03:53 PM
joshuatree joshuatree is offline
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Default Re: The latest lame justification

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewlipino View Post
HSF supporters have been running around recently saying that since we don't make Young Brothers, Matson, or all the other and sundry ships that ply our waters do EIS's that HSF shouldn't have to do one either. This argument rubs me wrong in all sorts of ways. I think we should make everyone else do the EIS too, but a lot of them predate HEPA, and the HSF by dint of the dock modifications and other aspects of the service they provide make them particularly subject to HEPA.
YB plans to add eight new barges, six tugboats, containers, cargo handling equipment, and information systems over the next 10 years to the tune of $186 million. How does this predate HEPA? GM, Ford, and Chrysler all predate the EPA so by your logic, why do they need to adhere to EPA guidelines?

The HSF actually did not make dock modifications, that's the main reason behind using barges to load/unload vehicles. I find it equally a rub in the wrong way when arguments against the HSF are made with gross generalizations as well. Perhaps there would be less confrontation over the issue if the anti-ferry stance tone down the military conspiracies and distorting of facts such as dock modifications?

343-5 Applicability and requirements. (a) Except as otherwise provided, an environmental assessment shall be required for actions that:

(3) Propose any use within a shoreline area as defined in section 205A-41;

205A-41 Definitions. As used in this part, unless the context otherwise requires:

"Board approval" means approval by the board of land and natural resources pursuant to chapter 183C.

"Shoreline area" shall include all of the land area between the shoreline and the shoreline setback line and may include the area between mean sea level and the shoreline; provided that if the highest annual wash of the waves is fixed or significantly affected by a structure that has not received all permits and approvals required by law or if any part of any structure in violation of this part extends seaward of the shoreline, then the term "shoreline area" shall include the entire structure.

"Shoreline setback line" means that line established in this part or by the county running inland from the shoreline at a horizontal plane.

"Structure" includes, but is not limited to, any portion of any building, pavement, road, pipe, flume, utility line, fence, groin, wall, or revetment. [L 1986, c 258, pt of 1; am L 1989, c 356, 2, 10; am L 1993, c 258, 5; am L 1995, c 11, 12 and c 69, 12]


Any new Matson or YB vessel is a proposal of use within a shoreline area.
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  #98  
Old March 22nd, 2009, 04:21 PM
Palolo lolo Palolo lolo is offline
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Default Hawaii Superferry -New York Times 3/22/09

Read this article for today's New York Times about the Superferry. It ties together many of the military connections.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/22/us...=Hawaii&st=cse
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  #99  
Old March 22nd, 2009, 06:08 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry -New York Times 3/22/09

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palolo lolo View Post
Read this article for today's New York Times about the Superferry. It ties together many of the military connections.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/22/us...=Hawaii&st=cse
It's bad enough when a NY Times article seems to be more inquisitive on the HSF/military contract tie-in than any story written by our local media. But for the Advertiser and SB to also get trumped by bloggers?

http://savekahuluiharbor.blogspot.co...s-leaving.html

Here is my take: They already knew that they were going to leave. Our informal calculations showed that they were possibly only grossing about $15,000 per one-way transit. This barely covered the fuel, much less the $191,000 in monthly harbor fees, or the debt service on loans totaling almost $200 million, or the expensive marine insurance, liability insurance, or the employees salaries and benefits, or the advertising, or the numerous new trucks and vans and equipment and the auto insurance for those vehicles, etc. It is the economy that is killing them more than anything. Also, they had a flawed business plan from day one; Alan Lerchbacher, the recently retired CEO of Austal (the shipbuilder), told the story of how he begged them to build a much smaller boat, telling them that because of Hawaii's rough seas, the Superferry would have to travel at full speed in order to rise up above the swells - and that this would burn unbelievable amounts of fuel. But, according to Lerchbacher, they "wouldn't hear of it". We don't know for sure if Lehman himself was involved behind-the-scenes in the initial order of the ship. But in any case, a smaller boat wouldn't have worked for him because he needed the boat to measure between 300 ft and 350 ft long in order to have the boat qualify as a demonstration model for the 55-ship military Joint High Speed Vessel project. The Dept. of Defense awarded a 10-ship contract to Austal just last month (after "deciding" on the "Superferry Hull Design")
So, I believe that Lehman and his Board had already realized that the ferry project was not viable economically and were just waiting for the Supreme Court ruling to come out so they could save face, blame the environmentalists, and have an excuse to stop the bleeding by laying off all the employees.


These are some hard numbers, not wild conspiracy theories. There's a lot of unanswered questions about how the HSF was: 1) supposed to economically sustain itself over the long haul, and 2) why the Alaka'i was oversized for the Hawaii market.
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  #100  
Old March 22nd, 2009, 06:46 PM
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Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
How is that more preposterous than comparing the adhering to the EIS requirement to legitimizing executive order 9066?
I wasn't. All I said was "Wow, it sucks for the people who don't have jobs anymore" and then all kinds of stuff starting appearing on my screen. So to sum up- "Wow, it sucks for the people who don't have jobs anymore." I don't know anything about any kind of executive orders or EIS's or conspiracies.

I'm obviously in the wrong thread.

So, hope they find jobs soon. Hope you get to Maui soon, TG. Sorry for pissing anyone off.
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