Go Back   HawaiiThreads.com > Ka Nohona > Hawaii Hall
FAQ Members List Social Groups Calendar Search Search Latest Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old March 17th, 2009, 04:58 PM
turtlegirl's Avatar
turtlegirl turtlegirl is offline
Ali`i
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kailua
Posts: 1,285
Default Re: Superferry Loses in Court - Hawaii Loses Overall

The boat has been running for a year. What harm to the environment has it caused? None that I am aware of. But it has done tons of good by creating jobs, economic activity, increased tourism, allowed people an option to get themselves, their families, or their goods between the islands. And I don't see whale carcasses all over due to getting hit or spooked by the Superferry.

The military connotations? Whatever. Just one more thing that protesters can latch onto and complain about. A scare tactic, if you will. Wake up! Half our island is the playground of the US military, yet I don't see anyone out protesting Hickam or MCB Kaneohe.

So what if the origins of the approvals are questionable and shady and political. Hawaii has the shadiest politics of any state I've ever lived in. There was no environmental affectation. And that was the whole point behind having the Superferry do the EIS in the first place. Couldn't we just fine them, avoiding more unemployment in the process, and let them run their business, and help families, small businesses, and the economy.
__________________
~ This is the strangest life I've ever known ~
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old March 17th, 2009, 06:11 PM
Composite 2992 Composite 2992 is offline
Kumu
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 754
Default Re: Superferry Loses in Court - Hawaii Loses Overall

The EIS shouldn't have been skirted if it were fairly applied to all circumstances.

However, as Joshuatree said, 11 months of real-life experience has given everyone a very accurate picture of what the Superferry does and doesn't do. It's a much more accurate measurement of impact than any theoretical EIS could ever achieve.

If laws were broken, then fine the people and entities involved. But don't kill off an otherwise valuable service.

From the start I simply don't see how adding another shipping service should have required an EIS in the first place. How is adding another ship to our waters any worse than adding another airline to our skies, another barge to YB's fleet or another bus to OTS?

The Superferry doesn't go any faster than some of the Navy ships and subs that have gone into and out of Pearl Harbor for the past 60 years. It's the same speed as TheBoat on a good day. It's smaller than any of the cruise ships that come into and out of Honolulu Harbor. It is more fuel efficient for net passenger/cargo weight than any airline. And it moves just a mere fraction of vehicles and freight that might harbor invasive species than YB barges.

So why is the Superferry being singled out as the bad guy?

The point isn't that the EIS was skirted. The point is that an EIS was even required. And the DLNR even placed restrictions on coolers aboard the Superferry carrying certain harvested marine species that don't apply to coolers carried by the airlines. That's even more suspicious than the Superferry and Lingle sidestepping the EIS issue.

It certainly reeks of a conspiracy to keep the Superferry out of the islands. Has nothing to do with the environmental impact. But it has a lot to do with preventing a good business from engaging in fair competition.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old March 17th, 2009, 06:43 PM
Konaguy's Avatar
Konaguy Konaguy is offline
Ali`i
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Kailua-Kona
Posts: 2,640
Default Re: Superferry Loses in Court - Hawaii Loses Overall

link :

"Act 2 required the DOT to perform an EIS but allowed short cuts from the kind of review set forth under Chapter 343, the state's environmental review law. Yesterday's court ruling likely means the DOT will have to perform a full-blown EIS."
__________________
Check out my blog on Kona issues :
The Kona Blog
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old March 17th, 2009, 07:17 PM
Frankie's Market's Avatar
Frankie's Market Frankie's Market is offline
Ali`i
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,664
Default Re: Superferry Loses in Court - Hawaii Loses Overall

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewlipino View Post
We are a people of laws and our laws draw their strength from our National and State Constitutions. It is not ok to simply ignore those laws whenever it seems convenient.
You said it best. It's a very slippery slope our society is treading upon when the attitude of "the ends justifies the means" is allowed to prevail.
__________________
This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old March 17th, 2009, 08:58 PM
TuNnL's Avatar
TuNnL TuNnL is offline
Ali`i
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Mō‘ili‘ili
Posts: 2,455
Send a message via AIM to TuNnL Send a message via Yahoo to TuNnL
Lightbulb Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by TuNnL View Post
Superferry “fans” seem to forget that if the company had followed environmental regulations in the first place, they wouldn’t be in this mess now. It’s only because they pressured the state to make a special exception for their ‘special’ company. For what? So they could test their JHSV (Joint High Speed Vessel) on unsuspecting Hawai‘i residents? Let’s dispense with the shibai here. The Superferry is a military prototype vessel designed to transport Striker Brigade vehicles. The Nation calls the people running Superferry a “mini-Pentagon.” The “inter-island” ferry service is just a sham designed to build up enough hours of use on the Superferry to prove that it is seaworthy enough for the feds to buy into it. Anyone who believes otherwise is ignorant and naïve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by helen View Post
So what? It's not the first time transportation systems have a civilian and miltary version.
No kidding! The point wasn’t precedence, it was the fact that Superferry officials to this day have refused to make this fact public! Duh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by helen View Post
Granted someone, somewhere down the road screwed up in not initially doing the EIS, yes they should have, since they had time to do it from the moment they wanted to do the project to the time when the vessel actually arrived in Hawaii.
You say that like it was an accident or oversight. Clearly, if you have been keeping up with the news, you would know this was a deliberate action born of concession by the Lingle Administration.
__________________

We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

— U.S. President Bill Clinton
USA TODAY, page 2A
11 March 1993
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old March 17th, 2009, 09:23 PM
Konaguy's Avatar
Konaguy Konaguy is offline
Ali`i
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Kailua-Kona
Posts: 2,640
Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

The fallout from this ruling continues. It appears that the Hawaii Superferry has decided to permanently cease operations. On top of that, according to Nancy Cook- Lauer "Hawaii Superferry: Layoffs begin Friday. Total employment is 161 full and part time employees and 75 contracted employees."
__________________
Check out my blog on Kona issues :
The Kona Blog
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old March 17th, 2009, 09:37 PM
Leo Lakio Leo Lakio is offline
Ali`i
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 9,558
Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtlegirl View Post
What harm to the environment has it caused? None that I am aware of.
You've made an important point here, without necessarily meaning to - what we are "aware of" often fails to reflect real damage to the environment, which can be on a small, yet cascading, scale. Not saying that is or is not the case with HSF, just that "environmental damage" is not limited to the obvious "we hit a whale"-type scenarios.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konaguy View Post
It appears that the Hawaii Superferry has decided to permanently cease operations.
That's harsh. I wonder if they had some inside knowledge suggesting that the results of the EIS would not reflect well on them, hence the decision to "not fight" any longer. Time may yet tell.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old March 17th, 2009, 09:57 PM
Composite 2992 Composite 2992 is offline
Kumu
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 754
Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konaguy View Post
The fallout from this ruling continues. It appears that the Hawaii Superferry has decided to permanently cease operations.
Well that's just great.

A bunch of overzealous idiots with messed up priorities kill off something that had tremendous benefits to all. The only downside to the Superferry: passengers sometimes barfed. Toss a bucket of THAT into your EIS!
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old March 17th, 2009, 11:23 PM
Frankie's Market's Avatar
Frankie's Market Frankie's Market is offline
Ali`i
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,664
Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
I wonder if they had some inside knowledge suggesting that the results of the EIS would not reflect well on them, hence the decision to "not fight" any longer. Time may yet tell.
I don't think so. The problem for the Superferry is the time their business will have to remain idle while the EIS is being conducted. As the Advertiser stated, it could take anywhere from several months to a year for the study to be done, if it has to start from scratch. Maintaining an idle operation costs $$$$, with no revenue coming in.

Much depends on whether the state supreme court allows for any part of the current EIS (which reportedly is near completion) to be salvaged and used in the new EIS. If the Superferry has to start at square one again, it's gonna be a tough road for them to haul.
__________________
This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old March 17th, 2009, 11:26 PM
joshuatree joshuatree is offline
Ali`i
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,824
Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
That's harsh. I wonder if they had some inside knowledge suggesting that the results of the EIS would not reflect well on them, hence the decision to "not fight" any longer. Time may yet tell.
Doubt it, there just isn't the patience and financial flexibility anymore. In light of Madoff ponzi schemes, AIG's fleecing of US taxpayers, lack of credit, etc; investors won't wait for an EIS which will take months. The ultimate irony would be to see the vessel painted grey and become a military transport plying the same waters.

People of Hawaii should not complain about the high cost of living, lack of jobs, and limited transport options. It's all self inflicted.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old March 17th, 2009, 11:30 PM
helen's Avatar
helen helen is offline
Ali`i
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Posts: 9,877
Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by TuNnL View Post
No kidding! The point wasn’t precedence, it was the fact that Superferry officials to this day have refused to make this fact public!
Was the vessel any way, shape or form dangerous or hazardous to ride or use? How does transporting 4 wheeled 1/2 ton automobiles between the islands equate to transporting 8 wheeled 19 ton armored personel carriers between a home base and a trouble spot someplace else in the world?

I don't understand why this is an issue. What difference would it make if they made the information public?
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old March 18th, 2009, 12:52 AM
surlygirly's Avatar
surlygirly surlygirly is offline
Ali`i
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Former resident of Ewa Beach
Posts: 937
Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

I'm sure the 236 people who just got laid off really care about the politics of it all. They just want jobs again. It's great to preach about ethics and all when you're sitting comfy, but when it affects your well-being on a personal level...
__________________

Can't think of anything creative this time

Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old March 18th, 2009, 06:03 AM
mapen's Avatar
mapen mapen is offline
Luna
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 158
Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

The vessel is a military prototype? So what? It makes a good inter-island ferry.

And what's with this dogmatic clinging and upholding of the EIS that "the law is the law"?

I often hear people quote the law as if it was the Bible. They cite law as if it is always perfect and it can never be wrong. But that's simply not true.

I propose that, with regard to the SuperFerry, the law was too restrictive.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old March 18th, 2009, 11:00 AM
mel's Avatar
mel mel is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii USA
Posts: 5,235
Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by mapen View Post
I propose that, with regard to the SuperFerry, the law was too restrictive.
Hits the nail right on the head.

Fact is too many of our state's laws are restrictive and very bad for business. That is why Hawaii has a reputation of being a lousy place to do business. Too many mandates, restrictive laws, and high taxes are some of the contributing factors that create a bad business climate in the islands.
__________________
I'm still here. Are you?
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old March 18th, 2009, 11:18 AM
Nords's Avatar
Nords Nords is offline
Kumu
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Central Oahu
Posts: 774
Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by mapen View Post
The vessel is a military prototype? So what? It makes a good inter-island ferry.
There are military conspiracies everywhere.

The SuperFerry's SWATH hull is relatively new (and expensive) compared to more traditional hulls. The military's HSV is a late-model version being tested for its load & speed, and the Army probably prefers it to the Navy's hovercraft since it can handle the waves & chop better with a bigger load. Hawaii is one of the few places with the open-ocean weather to make it worth testing. SWATHs look pretty cool anywhere but the Mainland's big continental shelf makes more traditional hulls much more cost-effective.

SWATH hulls are pretty darn expensive to build, maintain, & operate, but they're worth the capital expense for their handling and stability. However for you military-conspiracy fans, what are those pods under the NAVATEK really used for-- are they fuel tanks, water ballast, or... torpedo launchers?!?

As for Lehman & Fargo, I personally think that Lehman has all the morals & ethics of a rabid weasel but Fargo's a good guy. Submariners don't get to put on four stars and be PACOM without developing a few skills, and Fargo was probably given SuperFerry job because he's accustomed to being handed an overstuffed bag of crap and salvaging something from it. He retired from the Navy at the top of his game and still doesn't want to turn it off. Look at other local retired flag officers like Ron Hays, Zap Zlatoper, & Bob Kihune-- still working & contributing well past the point where it's financially necessary. If they haven't engineered a coup yet then I don't think they're going to need SuperFerry or Fargo to put their secret plans over the top...

I'd be far more concerned about the evil schemes of Aquadelica's owners!
__________________
Youth may be wasted on the young, but retirement is wasted on the old.
Live like you're dying, invest like you're immortal.
We grow old if we stop playing, but it's never too late to have a happy childhood.
Forget about who you were-- discover who you are.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old March 18th, 2009, 12:05 PM
Jewlipino Jewlipino is offline
Luna
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: the Default World
Posts: 152
Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by mel View Post
Hits the nail right on the head.

Fact is too many of our state's laws are restrictive and very bad for business. That is why Hawaii has a reputation of being a lousy place to do business. Too many mandates, restrictive laws, and high taxes are some of the contributing factors that create a bad business climate in the islands.

Yeesh. Then change the law. Until then the law stands and that's how we operate.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old March 18th, 2009, 12:07 PM
Jewlipino Jewlipino is offline
Luna
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: the Default World
Posts: 152
Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords View Post
I'd be far more concerned about the evil schemes of Aquadelica's owners!
Tell me about it. You know those guys too? Better yet, ever hear of the Shagadelica?
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old March 18th, 2009, 12:45 PM
mel's Avatar
mel mel is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii USA
Posts: 5,235
Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewlipino View Post
Yeesh. Then change the law. Until then the law stands and that's how we operate.
Every year Republicans have led the charge to change some of our restrictive laws and ease the tax burden.

And every year Democrats ignore those bills that do so and in fact introduce more bills and pass more laws that further restrict business and impose higher taxes! This is why Hawaii is such a frakken basket case when it come time to do some serious business.

BTW, there is nothing wrong with military applications applied to civilian ships as long as the military pays the firm supplying the ship. And now for you myopic Superferry opponents, the possibility is there that Hawaii Superferry could sell both ships to the military for 100% use all of the time by the military.

I love our Military. God Bless America. Land of the free. Home of the Brave.
__________________
I'm still here. Are you?
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old March 18th, 2009, 12:45 PM
Leo Lakio Leo Lakio is offline
Ali`i
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 9,558
Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewlipino View Post
Until then the law stands and that's how we operate.
I have to agree with that statement. We are a nation built on a system of laws; we don't necessarily like or agree with all of them, and we have the means to try and change them. But until then, for the greater good, we follow them - we don't get to pick and choose which laws suit our personal desires.

In such a unique environment as that of the Hawaiian Islands, it is even more critical that legal protection of local flora and fauna be observed. It is an understatement to call the SuperFerry situation "unfortunate." It could have provided an excellent ongoing service to Hawai`i and its people.

Be it due to the efforts of HSF or of the Lingle Administration, if you're looking at who to blame for this debacle, blame those who made such an extensive effort to circumvent regulation in the first place, not those who insisted that the laws already in place be followed.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old March 18th, 2009, 01:05 PM
Kelly0040's Avatar
Kelly0040 Kelly0040 is offline
Kia`aina
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 265
Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

While I have nothing factual to add to the conversation, I'm totally bummed about this. We're going to Maui in 3 weeks for my son's first birthday and I had SF tickets for all of us and the car. I was sooooooooooo excited to finally be able to ride the SF and it would've made our vacation so much smoother because packing the car is much easier than packing to fly (if that makes sense).

I dunno if I should go ahead and get my refund now and reserve our plane tickets and rental car or if I should wait if by some miracle they win their appeal before April. I have a feeling that waiting won't do any good.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old March 18th, 2009, 02:05 PM
TuNnL's Avatar
TuNnL TuNnL is offline
Ali`i
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Mō‘ili‘ili
Posts: 2,455
Send a message via AIM to TuNnL Send a message via Yahoo to TuNnL
Lightbulb Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by helen View Post
I don't understand why this is an issue. What difference would it make if they made the information public?
It would force government to justify whether the ends justified the means. Namely, $40 million in harbor improvements that state taxpayers may now end up paying for because the Superferry may no longer be bound by their contract. Of course, the admission would have made the greatest impact when the Superferry first made plans to enter the Hawai‘i market. Now, it’s almost a moot point. Let me ask you this: if the majority of Hawai‘i residents knew back then, that this was the real agenda of Superferry backers:
Quote:
Hawai‘i Superferry (HSF)–chaired by former Navy Secretary and 9/11 Commission member John F. Lehman–may also be using Hawaiian waters to demonstrate the performance of its Austal USA catamaran, the Alakai, and prove its efficacy for military purposes.

At stake are U.S. defense contracts potentially worth billions, and possible sales to foreign navies, according to a defense industry consultant in San Diego who asked not to be named. The Superferry is being tested in Hawai‘i to qualify the design for military contracts and also for sale to the navies of India and Indonesia, the consultant said.
...do you think this sentiment would have been limited only to Kaua‘i and Maui? I think not.
__________________

We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

— U.S. President Bill Clinton
USA TODAY, page 2A
11 March 1993
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old March 18th, 2009, 02:49 PM
joshuatree joshuatree is offline
Ali`i
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,824
Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by TuNnL View Post
It would force government to justify whether the ends justified the means. Namely, $40 million in harbor improvements that state taxpayers may now end up paying for because the Superferry may no longer be bound by their contract. Of course, the admission would have made the greatest impact when the Superferry first made plans to enter the Hawai‘i market. Now, it’s almost a moot point. Let me ask you this: if the majority of Hawai‘i residents knew back then, that this was the real agenda of Superferry backers:
That's heavy on speculation though. Using the SF as a commercial vessel to mask the "true" intention of serving as a military transport is really heavy on conspiracy. The military already has demo'ed twin hulls in Japan and other parts of the world. Maybe the SF wanted to do side business as a military transport but what's really wrong with that? Hawaiian Air flew soldiers on charter flights for the first Gulf War. No one raised stink about that. Possible contamination from depleted uranium rounds? Check out how many nuclear subs are homeported at Pearl. Being on the far tip of the Big Island ain't gonna do that much better if one of those subs blew up. No one making a fuss.

There might be a potential loophole in the court ruling though. The ruling was based on the interpretation that Act 2 is unconstitutional because it only benefited a sole entity. The court said 21 months won't give enough time for any other entity. So what if Act 2 was revised as Act 2.5 with a 100 months in place? Then other entities can use Act 2.5 if they wanted, thereby making it constitutional?
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old March 18th, 2009, 02:58 PM
helen's Avatar
helen helen is offline
Ali`i
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Posts: 9,877
Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Somehow to me this whole Superferry mess reeks of a get rich quick and leave scheme as opposed to some military testing conspiracy.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old March 18th, 2009, 03:08 PM
Leo Lakio Leo Lakio is offline
Ali`i
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 9,558
Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
Maybe the SF wanted to do side business as a military transport
I think it's unlikely that they would consider military contracts as a "side" business, when said contracts would make them much more kala than any public-transport venture.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old March 18th, 2009, 03:27 PM
joshuatree joshuatree is offline
Ali`i
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,824
Default Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
I think it's unlikely that they would consider military contracts as a "side" business, when said contracts would make them much more kala than any public-transport venture.
Again, this would fall under the realm of speculation, your opinion vs mine. But we do have precedence such as HA transporting military. Clearly, it's a side business. Also, the military already has it's own transport and logistics. Contracting such as when the guard sent equipment over to Maui works out very well.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
maui, oahu, superferry, transportation

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.

  Partner Sites: Hawaii Blog Hawaii News Hawaii Grinds Hawaii Social Media  
    Blogging the Aloha State. The Hawaii Star. Hawaii Food Blog. The story of Aloha 2.0.