Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Casino in Waikiki: Is it time for one?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: Casino in Waikiki: Is it time for one?

    I'm shocked! Shocked to find that gambling is going on in Ala Moana!

    And in breaking news to the anti-gambling contigent: The sky has not fallen in Hawaii.
    This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Casino in Waikiki: Is it time for one?

      Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
      I'm shocked! Shocked to find that gambling is going on in Ala Moana!

      And in breaking news to the anti-gambling contigent: The sky has not fallen in Hawaii.
      Yes, gambling is going on in Hawaii, but is not benign. For example, think of the Pali Golf Course murder. That was just the tip of the iceberg, as law enforcement knows.
      Now run along and play, but don’t get into trouble.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Casino in Waikiki: Is it time for one?

        Originally posted by Amati View Post
        They mentioned that Indian casinos have had problems with organized crime. .
        Yes, there have been unsubstantiated allegations to that affect. However, these allegations have been floated and financed by the gaming industry in Nevada. Their lobbyists in the CA State government got caught with their pants down last year.
        Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

        People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Casino in Waikiki: Is it time for one?

          Originally posted by Amati View Post
          Yes, gambling is going on in Hawaii, but is not benign. For example, think of the Pali Golf Course murder. That was just the tip of the iceberg, as law enforcement knows.
          Exactly! And you would have less gambling-related strong armings and murders between rival criminal syndicates if there was a legalized casino that would take away business from the illegal gambling parlors. Whenever a money-making endeavor is legitimized and simultaneously dries up the market for illicit/unlicensed establishments, organized crime lords always convert their attention and efforts towards other avenues of making money.

          A little history lesson: What was the single biggest thing that put a cap on all the crime and violence related to bootleg liquor in the 1920s-30s?

          Answer: The end of prohibition.
          This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Casino in Waikiki: Is it time for one?

            Interesting... would this be a smoke-free casino? One perhaps with a tad more aloha than Vegas, and where I can practice blackjack basic strategy without feeling like I'm asphyxiating or poisoning myself with secondhand smoke?

            Would revenues profits benefit Hawaiians, open up the backlog on Hawaiian homelands, help the state & OHA settle the ceded lands revenue issues, and be devoted to fully funding the schools?

            Would there be gambling on professional sports, horse racing via satellite, and surfing via local reporting?

            I'm trying to imagine a legal gambling facility in Kapolei, Nanakuli, Waimanalo, or Waianae...
            Youth may be wasted on the young, but retirement is wasted on the old.
            Live like you're dying, invest like you're immortal.
            We grow old if we stop playing, but it's never too late to have a happy childhood.
            Forget about who you were-- discover who you are.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Casino in Waikiki: Is it time for one?

              This thread makes me laugh.

              FYI Illegal gambling is not manini hea.

              People lose Big Money every day.

              Nuff said.
              Be AKAMAI ~ KOKUA Hawai`i!
              Philippians 4:13 --- I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Casino in Waikiki: Is it time for one?

                In the perspective of a tourist, I don't really want to see them. We have enough Indian casinos here in Washington State, and I don't have to travel more than 15 minutes to go to one. I would be unlikely to visit one while travelling through Waikiki or anywhere in Hawaii. To me, casinos belong in Vegas and to a lesser extent Nevada, not on ever street corner, Indian Res., and vacation hotspot.

                However, if the ethnic Hawaiians want them, great! Go for it. But it should be the ethnic Hawaiians to ask for them, not a whitey. It was their islands originally. Maybe when they totally own the white man, they can win the vote for separation from the USA.

                Voting to allow gambling establishments is a half assed solution to a bigger problem, the state's debt problem. Most states in the USA are dealing with this issue, and I am sure most are deflecting the bigger problem by fighting over cr*p like this. Most legislators don't have the balls to make the right decisions to fix the budget crisis. What are the right decisions? Cut expenses? Simplify the tax code? Pray that the mainland's economy improves so that tourism improves (I know.....not a great policy)? Adding taxes is the lazy legislators way.....In Washington State, our legislators have been trying for the past few years to require sales tax to be charged on all service industries (that will kill off many service orientated businesses quickly).

                [EDIT] I knew a guy 10 years ago, who was an amazing salesman, he could sell anyone anything. About a year before 9/11, business was slowing down (he was a skilled land planner & developer here in Seattle), he decided to go to a local non-indian casino. Before long, he was winning big, and he started to pay me huge sums of money for quick little changes on his project. Then paydays because hit and miss. I was hearing rumors that projects were falling behind and permits not paid. Soon he was forging signatures to permits, deeds and, well, anything to get him a check so he could go gamble. 18 months after starting to gamble, he skipped town because he had stolen over $4 million from local developers and home owners, all through his gambling addiction. A few years later he popped up again, supposedly a new man, and tried to repay people, but instead, screwed over his kids (they gave him loans), began gambling again and had to leave town again (besides, the cops caught up with him). Most of us (who lost $), think he committed suicide.
                Last edited by Manofmayo; February 3, 2010, 06:57 PM. Reason: Added a story....
                Expect me when you see me.....

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Casino in Waikiki: Is it time for one?

                  Originally posted by Amati View Post
                  Yes, gambling is going on in Hawaii, but is not benign. For example, think of the Pali Golf Course murder. That was just the tip of the iceberg, as law enforcement knows.
                  Yeah, well. If organized crime is the big reason for keeping it out, why didn't we ban the carpenters' union?
                  But I'm disturbed! I'm depressed! I'm inadequate! I GOT IT ALL! (George Costanza)
                  GrouchyTeacher.com

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Casino in Waikiki: Is it time for one?

                    Well, sticking your head in the sand about the connection between "legalized" gambling and organized crime is one way to avoid having to think about the reality of it.

                    Carry on HTers, it is entertaining to read the naivete of some of those who just don't know.
                    Now run along and play, but don’t get into trouble.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Casino in Waikiki: Is it time for one?

                      Originally posted by Amati View Post
                      Well, sticking your head in the sand about the connection between "legalized" gambling and organized crime is one way to avoid having to think about the reality of it.

                      Carry on HTers, it is entertaining to read the naivete of some of those who just don't know.
                      Well why don't you unstick our heads, then? Do you know something we don't, or are you just repeating the arguments we've all heard for decades, something that politicians have been citing without backing up their claims? I've seen Bugsy and Casino, but those are movies. If you're convinced about this connection, how about sharing what you know and maybe you'll convince someone. I'm not picking a fight; I'm just saying that another way to avoid having to think about the reality of it is just to repeat what's always been said without providing any kind of meaningful evidence. You refer to the Pali Golf Course murder, but what did that have to do with legalized gambling?

                      EDIT: I just re-read this thread and did read the article you linked, but so much of what's in it seems inconclusive to me. I guess that since it's inconclusive one way or the other, and your original assertion was that the (potential) risk seems to outweigh the (potential) reward, you'd need to see a much stronger benefit in order for the reward to outweigh the risk. I think this is a fair argument. On the other hand, the strongest threats mentioned in the linked article seem more to do with individual crime and not organized crime, except for the skimming and laundering. If I understand money-laundering correctly, it wouldn't be the existence of a casino that created the crime; the casino would merely be a good place (because of the large amounts of money changing hands) for the laundering to happen, rather than through phony storefronts or whatever.

                      As for skimming, I'll bet you see a heck of a lot more of that in legitimate business than you do in casinos. And kickbacks? I think they are the reality any kind of business. We need to dismantle the liquor commission first if we're serious about that kind of crime.
                      Last edited by scrivener; February 4, 2010, 01:48 AM.
                      But I'm disturbed! I'm depressed! I'm inadequate! I GOT IT ALL! (George Costanza)
                      GrouchyTeacher.com

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Casino in Waikiki: Is it time for one?

                        Originally posted by Amati View Post
                        Yes, gambling is going on in Hawaii, but is not benign. For example, think of the Pali Golf Course murder. That was just the tip of the iceberg, as law enforcement knows.
                        Originally posted by scrivener View Post
                        You refer to the Pali Golf Course murder, but what did that have to do with legalized gambling?
                        Scriv, I think Amati’s point is that illegal gambling is already quite “organized,” and legalizing it will just legitimize the crooks who are currently “jockeying for position.” I’m not saying I agree with that theory, but this article should answer all your questions:

                        Defense denies gambling ring drove Pali Golf Course shootings

                        By Nelson Daranciang
                        POSTED: 01:30 a.m. HST, Mar 12, 2009


                        Accused Pali Golf Course killers Rodney Joseph Jr. and Ethan Motta are not guilty of racketeering because they were not involved in a criminal enterprise, their lawyers told jurors in closing arguments yesterday in the two men's federal trial.

                        But the government says Joseph and Motta gunned down Romelius Corpuz Jr. and Lepo Taliese and critically injured Tinoimalu Sao on Jan. 7, 2004, to take back control of illegal gambling on Oahu.

                        "This case is about greed, control and violence," said federal prosecutor Thomas Brady. "Joseph and Motta were in it to win."

                        The charges against Joseph and Motta include racketeering involving illegal gambling, extortion conspiracy and robbery, operating an illegal gambling business and murder and attempted murder in aid of racketeering.

                        Brady said several witnesses testified during the five-week trial that Joseph and Motta provided protection for illegal game rooms, fended off other factions vying for control and shut down rival game rooms.

                        Motta's lawyer, Charles Carnesi, said the witnesses lied to minimize their own involvement in the violent struggle for control of the game rooms or to get breaks from the government for committing other crimes...
                        Incidentally, Charles Carnesi is a New York attorney who made a name for himself defending big-time mafia clients, including none other than John Gotti, Jr. Connect the dots...la-la-la.

                        We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

                        — U.S. President Bill Clinton
                        USA TODAY, page 2A
                        11 March 1993

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Casino in Waikiki: Is it time for one?

                          Originally posted by scrivener View Post
                          EDIT: I just re-read this thread and did read the article you linked, but so much of what's in it seems inconclusive to me. I guess that since it's inconclusive one way or the other, and your original assertion was that the (potential) risk seems to outweigh the (potential) reward, you'd need to see a much stronger benefit in order for the reward to outweigh the risk. I think this is a fair argument. On the other hand, the strongest threats mentioned in the linked article seem more to do with individual crime and not organized crime, except for the skimming and laundering.
                          Fine, here's my benefits/risk analysis. It's rather simple.

                          With legalized gambling, the benefits are that govt. revenue can be generated via licensing fees and taxes. The risk is that there is the possibility that corruption could seep into govt.

                          My analysis: Benefit outweighs the risk, as aforementioned risk is already a problem. Every so often, we hear about investigations and arrests of crooked cops, liquor commissioners, and even city and state lawmakers. We currently rely on a system of checks-and-balances to detect, weed out, and prosecute those public servants who would use their positions to benefit themselves and commit crimes.

                          With the status-quo, the benefits are....well, there are no benefits! All the illegal gambling that currently takes place will generate ZERO in tax dollars to fund our public schools and social services. The risks? Without legalized gaming, the state will have to balance the budget on the backs of our school children with Furlough Fridays and reduced school bus service.

                          My analyis: Status-quo is totally unacceptable.

                          Yeah, that's my analysis. Excuse me if it sounds crude and isn't a thousand pages long and commissioned by a half dozen consultants who will study this thing to death for several years, if you let them. In the meantime, our kids' future are being hurt RIGHT NOW with all these drastic cutbacks. But no, some people have no sense of urgency over the situation and are willing to sit on their hands while the kids suffer. Sad!!!
                          This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Casino in Waikiki: Is it time for one?

                            Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
                            Nevada provides a good example of a state where a gaming control board and law enforcement worked together during the 1980s to banish the Midwest mobsters who were using the Vegas casinos to skim and launder untold sums of money.
                            The incident I reported that looked like an illegal payoff in a Carson City casino happened in the mid 1970's. FWIW
                            Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
                            ~ ~
                            Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
                            Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
                            Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Casino in Waikiki: Is it time for one?

                              Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
                              Exactly! And you would have less gambling-related strong armings and murders between rival criminal syndicates if there was a legalized casino that would take away business from the illegal gambling parlors. Whenever a money-making endeavor is legitimized and simultaneously dries up the market for illicit/unlicensed establishments, organized crime lords always convert their attention and efforts towards other avenues of making money.

                              A little history lesson: What was the single biggest thing that put a cap on all the crime and violence related to bootleg liquor in the 1920s-30s?

                              Answer: The end of prohibition.
                              Good point, Frankie. The best logical argument on the subject I have heard yet.

                              OK!
                              Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
                              ~ ~
                              Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
                              Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
                              Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Casino in Waikiki: Is it time for one?

                                Well it seems that whenever the government gets involved in the private sector, they f*ck it up by taxing and surcharging it to death. So legalize gambling, prostitution, drugs whatever is the thorn in our moral codes of conduct.

                                Eventually like small business, our tax system will kill that industry and we will be left without.
                                Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X