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  • Re: Rail Transit

    turtlegirl, our roads are NOT 'maxed out' - that's the whole point. At least 90% of the time, there is no delay moving between Ewa and downtown (unless you want to exceed the speed limits). Only rush hour and accidents cause delays. That's not 'maxed out', not even close. If rush hour drivers between downtown and Ewa want a solution (this one doesn't), they alone should pay for one because they are causing their own problem and are the only ones who will benefit from a solution. Your 'wouldn't it be nice' scenarios are notional luxuries, at best, that shouldn't be paid for by us poor slobs who can't afford to go out to eat in the first place, or who find the McD's dollar menu the HEIGHT of luxury. Do you get it now?
    May I always be found beneath your contempt.

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    • Re: Rail Transit

      Umm...so why does one pay taxes to fund public education when they don't have kids attending? Or why does one who live out west shoulder the tab for Waikiki's sewer line problem?

      Comment


      • Re: Rail Transit

        Unless you're a broke student, if you think that McDonalds is the height of luxury, then you need a better job AND a lesson on good nutrition.
        ~ This is the strangest life I've ever known ~

        Comment


        • Re: Rail Transit

          Originally posted by salmoned View Post
          turtlegirl, our roads are NOT 'maxed out' - that's the whole point. At least 90% of the time, there is no delay moving between Ewa and downtown (unless you want to exceed the speed limits). Only rush hour and accidents cause delays. That's not 'maxed out', not even close.
          Three hours of Ewa traffic being snarled along Ft. Weaver Road in the morning, and again in the afternoon, is not insignificant. Plus the same happens from Pearl Harbor to Waipahu on H1.

          As said dozens of times before, the rail system is intended to provide an option for those commuters who want to avoid that kind of delay, yet be able to get to their destinations in a reasonable time. It would also cost a lot less than a car. Average annual cost to drive a car: $7,800, or about 50 cents a mile. Annual pass for theBus is $440. A rail pass would probably be about the same. A savings of more than $7,300. That's a good chunk of change for people who live in the Leeward area and want to send their kids to private school. Or to middle class working types who would like to save some of their hard-earned money by not using their cars just to get to the office.

          As for who pays for it, that's how it works with taxes. You helped pay for the air strip in Kalaupapa but have you ever used it? There are fish aggregate devices all around the state, artificial reef systems, launch ramps, docks, and fresh water hatcheries to support the fishing industry that your taxes paid for, yet are you taking advantage of the available resources? When was the last time HFD extinguished your house fire, or re-started your heart?

          Just because you're not using a service or resource doesn't mean you can insist on opting out. I don't use the women's restroom in the parks but I still have to have some of my tax money go toward building and maintaining them.

          Comment


          • Re: Rail Transit

            Originally posted by Random View Post
            I question the meager part. Those who sympathize with you or share your interest without joining/registering your movement are not entirely selfless.

            This is a political game, and while your group is dealing out in the open and in public, there are always someone backdoor dealing as well.
            So, offer some speculation as to who might gain from preventing a rail project, other than the general public gaining a reduction in taxes. Your questioning of the 'meager' part is idle and without substance. I don't have or support a group, I'm commenting as the individual taxpayer I am.

            Sorry, Composite2992, a rail system will do nothing for unsnarling Ft. Weaver Road, since no rail line is planned to alleviate that route. You'll still have to drive or take a bus to get to the rail (as would I). The bus, however, helps alleviate traffic on that route now. If more people take the bus, less will fill that road. I don't know why you would assume a rail pass may be created or that it might cost the same as a bus pass, it's all the purest of idle whimsy. A good many parents drive their kids to school, in case you hadn't noticed, and that behavior will not be changed by a rail system.
            Last edited by salmoned; July 15, 2008, 10:50 AM.
            May I always be found beneath your contempt.

            Comment


            • Re: Rail Transit

              Originally posted by salmoned View Post
              So, offer some speculation as to who might gain from preventing a rail project, other than the general public gaining a reduction in taxes. Your questioning of the 'meager' part is idle and without substance. I don't have or support a group, I'm commenting as the individual taxpayer I am.
              Taxi companies, tour bus companies, auto dealerships, local oil based industries such as asphalt providers, bus manufacturers.

              Comment


              • Re: Rail Transit

                Originally posted by Composite 2992 View Post
                As said dozens of times before, the rail system is intended to provide an option for those commuters who want to avoid that kind of delay, yet be able to get to their destinations in a reasonable time. It would also cost a lot less than a car. Average annual cost to drive a car: $7,800, or about 50 cents a mile. Annual pass for theBus is $440. A rail pass would probably be about the same. A savings of more than $7,300. That's a good chunk of change for people who live in the Leeward area and want to send their kids to private school. Or to middle class working types who would like to save some of their hard-earned money by not using their cars just to get to the office.

                As for who pays for it, that's how it works with taxes. You helped pay for the air strip in Kalaupapa but have you ever used it? There are fish aggregate devices all around the state, artificial reef systems, launch ramps, docks, and fresh water hatcheries to support the fishing industry that your taxes paid for, yet are you taking advantage of the available resources? When was the last time HFD extinguished your house fire, or re-started your heart?

                Just because you're not using a service or resource doesn't mean you can insist on opting out. I don't use the women's restroom in the parks but I still have to have some of my tax money go toward building and maintaining them.

                Just try to reason out a typical rail commuter's routine. Drive to the station (some) or take the bus (most)? How many stations have parking lots (some)? Can the lots handle the capacity? Is parking free? How far/long to walk to the platform? Wait for the train? How many stops along the way? Any station delays due to boarding problems along the way? Was the train full, forcing commuters at later stations to take the next (or the next, next) train (remember those 20 bus lines no longer in service)? Exit train, still have your wallet? Walk to work (some), take a taxi (some), or take another bus (most)? Phone call from school, the kid is sick and must be picked up - what now?

                Taxi companies will get more service from a rail system than you could imagine - they are not against rail (I worked as a taxi driver here in the past, I know rail will generate taxi business). Tour bus companies will not lose, since the rail doesn't duplicate their service or go to any scenic places. Auto dealerships have nothing to lose because no one will give up a vehicle for rail (or they would already have given it up for the more versatile bus). Asphalt providers have a hard time keeping up with demand now. Bus manufacturers, ah, we have a potential beneficiary, IF the bus system is expanded! How many signatures did they manage to put on the petition, since we have no bus manufacturers locally? How could they have prevented rail for the last 35 years?

                I know how taxes work and I know how taxes can be wasted. A rail system will be a waste of tax money. Currently, that waste is avoidable.
                Last edited by salmoned; July 15, 2008, 12:23 PM.
                May I always be found beneath your contempt.

                Comment


                • Re: Rail Transit

                  Originally posted by salmoned View Post
                  Taxi companies will get more service from a rail system than you could imagine - they are not against rail (I worked as a taxi driver here in the past, I know rail will generate taxi business). Tour bus companies will not lose, since the rail doesn't duplicate their service or go to any scenic places. Auto dealerships have nothing to lose because no one will give up a vehicle for rail (or they would already have given it up for the more versatile bus). Asphalt providers have a hard time keeping up with demand now. Bus manufacturers, ah, we have a potential beneficiary, IF the bus system is expanded! How many signatures did they manage to put on the petition, since we have no bus manufacturers locally? How could they have prevented rail for the last 35 years?
                  Under who we are for honolulutraffic:

                  Andy's Pool Service Corp.

                  Charley's Taxi & Tours

                  E.N. Kemp & Associates, Inc.

                  Elite Limousine

                  Grassroot Institute

                  Hawaii Activities andTours
                  Association (HAATA)

                  Hawaii Transportation Association

                  HonCab

                  Kahala Kai Taxi

                  Maui Divers of Hawaii, Ltd.

                  Moana Taxi

                  Pacific Business Appraisers, LLC

                  Pacific Business Valuation, LLC

                  Paradise Cruise, Ltd.

                  Pegge Hopper Gallery

                  Polynesian Hospitality

                  RobertsHawaii

                  Robert's Taxi

                  Small BusinessHawaii (SBH)

                  Star Taxi

                  Superstar Hawaii Transit

                  Talk Story Magazine, Inc.

                  The Cab

                  Waikiki Residents Association

                  Waikiki Taxi


                  They all have lots to lose when tourists get smart and use rail to get from A to B instead of a tour bus or a taxi. Dealers will lose a sale when a family decides maybe they can get by with one car instead of two.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Rail Transit

                    Originally posted by turtlegirl View Post
                    Unless you're a broke student, if you think that McDonalds is the height of luxury, then you need a better job AND a lesson on good nutrition.
                    Hmm, couldn't I be a responsible, widowed father of four (one with special needs) who defines a luxurious splurge as NOT brown bagging it or going without lunch, but buying from the dollar menu only (would never splurge on the pricier items)? Do I have to be a student to be broke or to enjoy the luxury of not having to prepare food?

                    joshuatree, what do they have to lose? Many tourists already use The Bus to get between points A and B that will be along the rail route (as long as they have no baggage, which will be excluded from rail too, I would expect). People taking taxis or tour buses have a different need and mindset, just like the people who commute on The Bus vs. people who drive have different needs and mindsets. How is the Waikiki Residents Association or the Grassroot Institute going to lose with a rail system? If auto dealers will be hurt, why aren't they on your list? Most of those taxi companies are dispatch services, they service mostly locals who call for taxis (as did I). Do you really think anyone who would take a limo would choose to ride the train instead?
                    Last edited by salmoned; July 15, 2008, 01:05 PM.
                    May I always be found beneath your contempt.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Rail Transit

                      Originally posted by salmoned View Post
                      The billion dollar cost for a dedicated busway was predicated on new construction, I suggest we use an existing lane for dedicated bus service - cost would be minimal and increased traffic would encourage bus use.
                      Didn't the previous mayor attempted to do Rapid Bus Transit?

                      Comment


                      • Re: Rail Transit

                        Yes, but with an expensive build-out that wouldn't affect current vehicular capacity.

                        So many seem to think that if enough money is thrown at a problem, they won't have to change their behavior to help solve it. Unfortunately, it's not that easy when it's their behavior that IS the problem. This can said of education, as much as of this issue. Throwing money is the quick fix, but it doesn't always work - it can set you back as easily as move you forward. Either way, you end up poorer. Let's say a rail system saves a car commuter an average 10 minutes (the actual projections are less). A rail commuter, of course, will still take longer than a car commuter - no one is arguing that rail is faster than car - so they will suffer an average of at least 10 minutes. The current Bus commuters may win a little or lose a little, depending on how many transfers they require. So, not only do we all pay for this system, but the users (switching from cars) are the ones who will suffer from it the most! Of course, if we make it cheap enough, they may not mind so much, but then we all have to chip in even more. Also, on those days when there's an accident on the freeway, rail users may save time over car users, but averaged out they will still lose. Now, why are we creating a system that rewards those who won't change their 'bad' behavior, that is, those who will continue to drive to/from work during rush hour, at the expense of us all?

                        Another alternative solution - Every car on the freeway between 7am and 8:45am must have at least two riders.

                        joshuatree, I can tell you how those companies WILL lose money - by the disruption of the roadways caused by construction of a rail system. Many more non-transportation businesses will lose, too. We will all never recover the time lost in traffic jams caused by THAT.

                        [Darn, I'm losing a lot of input due to timing out on editing sessions]
                        Last edited by salmoned; July 15, 2008, 01:58 PM.
                        May I always be found beneath your contempt.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Rail Transit

                          Interesting. So, as a breeder father of four, you should be more interested in the future of this island, (alternative energy and alternative transportation,) because of your kids.

                          Can we rename this thread? How about "Salmoned vs. Everybody", or "Post Somethin, I Dare You to Disagree with Salmoned", or "Salmoned Swimming Upstream", or "Salmoned's Rant", or how about a disclaimer - "this thread monopolized by Salmoned"

                          If you would put as much energy into putting out some resumes and finding a better sustainabe income, to help you and your supposed family of 5, as you do bickering with people on this thread....

                          I'm done with this thread.
                          ~ This is the strangest life I've ever known ~

                          Comment


                          • Re: Rail Transit

                            Hey, I never said I was a widowed father of four, I just asked if I couldn't be one in response to your narrow categorization of who could find a McD's dollar menu selection to be a luxury. I AM interested in the future of this island and this planet and all the people on it - THAT'S why I'm against this rail project. If I weren't interested in our mutual welfare, I wouldn't have bothered to reply. I'm holding true to my moniker and swimming upstream to my culminating act and subsequent death, as you may have suspected. I'm not poor or broke, but I'm not rich enough to squander what I have, either - but enough of me, it's not about me, it's not about you, it's about a misconceived and misguided rail project.
                            May I always be found beneath your contempt.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Rail Transit

                              Well, looks like despite Stop Rail Now's best efforts, their attempt to make people vote this issue down might be pointless:

                              http://starbulletin.com/breaking/breaking.php?id=7393

                              "Honolulu city officials say an initiative being pushed by forces opposed to the planned $3.7 billion transit system can't appear on the November ballot."

                              Comment


                              • Re: Rail Transit

                                Originally posted by Composite 2992 View Post
                                Well, looks like despite Stop Rail Now's best efforts, their attempt to make people vote this issue down might be pointless:

                                http://starbulletin.com/breaking/breaking.php?id=7393

                                "Honolulu city officials say an initiative being pushed by forces opposed to the planned $3.7 billion transit system can't appear on the November ballot."
                                Is Stop Rail Now's attorney, John Carroll, smoking the good stuff?

                                "If you read this language, just plain language, really it says exactly what we're doing. It should be going on the general election ballot," Carroll said.

                                But if you download their petition and read the first few lines, the petition states The following question is being submitted to the People of the City and County of Honolulu to be voted upon at a special election:

                                SPECIAL ELECTION, not general election.

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