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  • #16
    Re: Koko Crater Trail closed today

    Point taken re Kahoolawe. I think some would have a better argument by saying that about Makua Valley, actually.
    It is a hornets' nest. But every thing was OK with the hikers and the gun enthusiasts until someone with a limited thought capacity decided on the sign verbage. I wonder if we will ever learn how it got approved. Police officers at our gathering yesterday said there was no legal way to enforce it. Lesson to all: Unilateral decisions don't fly.

    I would like to add that ultimatums from bureaucrats should always be questioned.
    Last edited by lavagal; February 16, 2008, 03:33 PM.
    Aloha from Lavagal

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    • #17
      Re: Koko Crater Trail closed today

      Originally posted by lavagal View Post
      I would like to add that ultimatums from bureaucrats should always be questioned.
      A hearty "AMEN!" to that! Especially ones that aren't even elected. I hope there can be a positive resolution - maybe it's a case where it will all just kind of quietly fade away and things will go back to as they had been. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

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      • #18
        Re: Koko Crater Trail closed today

        Originally posted by lavagal View Post
        Police officers at our gathering yesterday said there was no legal way to enforce it.
        Hmmm, now that is interesting.

        Why can't we (State of Hawaii) take another tack towards what is, or appears to be dangerous? How about "Enter at own risk" -"No one but yourself responsible past this point". Or somesuch wording. To alleviate liability?

        During the mid-nineties, the Hanauma Bay 'Toilet Bowl' was closed to everyone along with other areas around the islands. There's gotta be a better way.

        Just some thoughts.
        Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

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        • #19
          Re: Koko Crater Trail closed today

          I found this online. I wonder what came of it? (From August, 2005)
          http://kumu.icsd.hawaii.gov/dlnr/cha...lNR/05-N82.htm

          Here's a small portion of the text. Please read at the link above.

          "This is an opportunity for the public to be a part of the process to establish the design and placement standards for signs that warn of dangerous natural conditions in our state parks, along Na Ala Hele trails and in our county parks," said Peter Young, DLNR Chairperson.

          "There has always been, and always will be, a risk involved in being out in nature. Once these standards are finalized and signs put in place, we hope we will achieve a balance between the government's duty to warn and the recreational user making an informed choice. We invite the public to attend the hearing and comment on the new administrative rules we are proposing," concluded Young.

          "Act 82, Session Laws Hawaii, 2003, (relating to public land liability) establishes a process for the development of warning signs for improved public lands, and provides the State and counties with protection from liability for damages caused by the dangerous natural conditions that are identified through the warning signage..."

          Well... I know a bullet to the head isn't a 'natural' hazard, but something worded on signage may accomplish the same protection from liability. And how about 'other' natural areas? IE: Sacred Falls, Toilet Bowl, etc...
          Last edited by Menehune Man; February 16, 2008, 10:34 PM.
          Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

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          • #20
            Re: Koko Crater Trail closed today

            Thanks for that Menehune Man.

            There will be a rally regarding this issue at Hahaione School at 6:30 p.m. on Tuesday, March 6, 2008, prior to the start of the 7 p.m. Hawaii Kai Neighborhood Board meeting. We hope that we get a good turnout regarding this issue. Ka Iwi cabins was a lightning rod for East Oahu, and I think this should be, too.
            Aloha from Lavagal

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            • #21
              Re: Koko Crater Trail closed today

              Koko Crater trail to remain open. (For now, bet we'll hear again about this issue)
              Over 300 people made it to the neighborhood meeting last night.

              http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/ap...00/1001/NEWS01
              Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

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              • #22
                Re: Koko Crater Trail closed today

                According to the S-B,

                Chang [that would be Lester Chang, the City Parks Director -GM] said the issue of public safety remains a concern that didn't exist before the closure in the 1990s of a Job Corps facility that acted as a physical buffer between the trail and the gun range. (link)
                Oooookay. So back when Job Corps was still operational, it served as a buffer? How did that work -- did the Job Corps guys protect the hikers by placing themselves in the line of fire?

                If Chang meant that the presence of an active Job Corps facility kept hikers from approaching the firing range too closely because they'd have to cross through an active facility and the Job Corps folks there would ask them not to do so, that almost makes sense... except, where exactly is this area where the hikers would be approaching too closely, anyway? I have been on that trail and I can't picture it. This argument doesn't hold water.

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                • #23
                  Re: Koko Crater Trail closed today

                  the newly installed baseball field is closer to the range than the hiking trail. go figure?!
                  "chaos reigns within.
                  reflect, repent and reboot.
                  order shall return."

                  microsoft error message with haiku poetry

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                  • #24
                    Re: Koko Crater Trail closed today

                    Originally posted by kani-lehua View Post
                    the newly installed baseball field is closer to the range than the hiking trail. go figure?!
                    Exactly! Along with the nearby parking area also.

                    Granted, if hikers leave the trail and go east along the mountainside, they would be in front and above the firing ranges facing that direction. I don't see any good reason to do that though. Nothing special to see and there's loose footing too.
                    I've also never heard of anyone doing that.
                    Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

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                    • #25
                      Re: Koko Crater Trail closed today

                      Originally posted by Menehune Man View Post
                      Granted, if hikers leave the trail and go east along the mountainside, they would be in front and above the firing ranges facing that direction. I don't see any good reason to do that though. Nothing special to see and there's loose footing too.
                      I've also never heard of anyone doing that.
                      What's more, the brush along the sides is so thick that I can't imagine anyone doing that by accident either. Even the most confused hiker wouldn't make a mistake like that because the trail is extremely well defined. After all, it's an old railroad track -- you really can't get much more obvious than that.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Koko Crater Trail closed today

                        There were a lot of ideas suggested at the meeting last night. We hope that Lester Chang is won over. It seemed he's convinced he's right. Anyway, I was on KGMB during the supper newscasts, if you want to watch. I have a face for print, but I tried to make a good suggestion.
                        Aloha from Lavagal

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                        • #27
                          Re: Koko Crater Trail closed today

                          Originally posted by lavagal View Post
                          I have a face for print, but I tried to make a good suggestion.
                          You're lovely lavagal and made a good suggestion too.
                          Can you remember any ideas of others from the meeting?
                          Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

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                          • #28
                            Re: Koko Crater Trail closed today

                            Originally posted by Menehune Man View Post
                            You're lovely lavagal and made a good suggestion too.
                            Can you remember any ideas of others from the meeting?
                            Mahalo, you are very kind, Menehune Man.

                            What we had learned last night was that during those "visioning" processes and other planning steps taking in recent years, several million dollars were set aside for improvements to the range. They have yet to be used, implemented, perhaps are gone. Let's face it, the range is 70 years old. Why wouldn't it need improvements? And at the same time, more safety measures could be installed as well.

                            It was suggested that interest groups such as trail and mountain clubs, scouting, youth, and conservation groups could organize and rotate trail maintenance duties.

                            Board member Gary Weller (one of my favorite guys as he asks tons of questions and doesn't let bureaucrats get away with anything) suggested that signs similar to those in Volcanoes National Park be put up warning people not to go beyond a certain point, etc.

                            Lester Chang says the suggestions will be considered but "It's just not that easy."

                            I'd like to suggest that it doesn't have to be that hard.
                            Last edited by lavagal; February 27, 2008, 06:03 PM.
                            Aloha from Lavagal

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                            • #29
                              Re: Koko Crater Trail closed today

                              Originally posted by glossyp View Post
                              A hearty "AMEN!" to that! Especially ones that aren't even elected.
                              Lester Chang was not elected to his post. But he was appointed by someone who is. Maybe you're familiar with him. Some big guy named Mufi.

                              And why shouldn't the mayor ultimately be held accountable by the community for the decisions made by one of his appointees?
                              This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Koko Crater Trail closed today

                                Have you heard any news about the trail and or gun range improvements?

                                There was a concern voiced for trail maintenance.
                                Other than a rare bush growing into the trail itself, what maintenance has been performed previously?
                                The trail looks the way it has appeared for many years. Does the tressel part now need work, or something?

                                Just wondering...
                                Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

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