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  #101  
Old October 16th, 2006, 02:21 PM
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Default Re: Shake and Quake!

Those photos of the landslide in Kealakekua Bay were awesome. That's a lot of debris that is going to cover the reef ecosystem there. I'm swimming there tomorrow, so I will give a report and maybe take some underwater photos.

Funny how rainwater runoff from Hokulia was but a trickle of mud compared to the massive rock slide and dust cloud from an earthquake. I wonder who the LibNuts will sue for this one. It is also noteworthy that after the Hokulia muddy runoff episode, you would find that the reef ecosystem around KeikiWaha and The Grotto, all the way south to Keawekaheka Point, is more healthy than ever. A generous dusting of organics and minerals goes a long way toward boosting photosynthesis. It's these kinds of scientific facts, as verified through observation, that drive propagandists crazy.
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  #102  
Old October 16th, 2006, 02:34 PM
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Default Re: Shake and Quake!

Working in telecom for a healthcare organization for a number of years, I learned a few things about phones (landlines v. cellular): landlines will usually be operational where cellular phones might not work all the time. This is the main reason why I would never go exclusively with Vonage or any of the carriers that offer VOIP.

If you need to make calls and your phones aren't working, go try find a payphone . These would be an equivalent to power failure phones that hospitals and large businesses install even if they have backup generators.

Also, as part of your "disaster recovery kit", besides keeping a few dollar bills handy (for when the power goes out and you can't access your ATM or use credit cards), buy one of those prepaid phone cards (like from MCI/Worldcom that you can get at Costco). These will not expire and when you call their toll free number, it will be routed to the Mainland, so your chances of being able to call someone in the outside world are greatly enhanced, even if all Hawai'i circuits are busy. Same thing with TracFone. That 800# is on the Mainland. 800# calls get routed over different circuits than the direct dial calls.

Miulang
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  #103  
Old October 16th, 2006, 02:44 PM
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Default Re: Shake and Quake!

We just got power back this morning around 8am. Only thing I really missed was having fans on at night. Outside of that, I could have gone a few more days without power.

The quake woke my husband and I up and the Californian in me was like "whatever, it's an earthquake. I give it a 4." And then, as I layed my head back on the pillow, the thoughts of "tsunami" and "North Korea" bounced in and I bounced outta bed and turned the tv on. Course, it turned off a few minutes later. So, I went back to bed, too. I figured if I could feel the earthquake, it was near land somewhere, so I'd be ok. (plus I was tired hehe)

When we woke up, we got in the car and drove around a little while charging up our cell phones. We were entertained by KSSK all day. The Huli Huli chicken thing was funny. Good stuff tho.

Around 7:30pm, we went for a walk to the beach and it was interesting to see Waikiki totally dark except for some random signs.

I was rather surprised at how many people had no real preparations for things like this. Earthquakes may not be common, but c'mon - how do folks not have a flashlight?

We heard the Hawaii Telecom commercial a few days ago about how the power can go out and if you have a digital phone, it won't work. And my husband snapped back, "they also fail to tell you that you need an older phone in order for it to work when the power goes out."
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  #104  
Old October 16th, 2006, 02:56 PM
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Default Re: Shake and Quake!

i hope all is safe , i just heard ,is the power back on for you , i was shocked to hear
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  #105  
Old October 16th, 2006, 02:59 PM
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Default Re: Shake and Quake!

I'm amazed that it seems like most of the people on the Big Island had power and cable for most of the day... when they were so much closer to the epicenter of the Earthquake!
http://www.hawaiithreads.com/showpos...&postcount=265

I was getting updates from people on the Big Island who were watching what was going on in Honolulu.
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  #106  
Old October 16th, 2006, 03:06 PM
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The reason why Honolulu's power went down and stayed down as long as it did is because of Oahu's power grid. It has more customers and is more complex than the power grids on the Neighbor Islands.

Quote:
HECO said the earthquakes, one with a magnitude of 6.6, caused two generators on O'ahu to shut down. The two — one at Kahe Point and the other at Aloha Tower Downtown — accounted for about 12 percent of the generating capacity of the system at the time.

Once those generators stopped producing, HECO's automated system started shutting off power to customers, so demand would not overwhelm the 11 generators that were still working.
One bummer thing about Hawai'is power grids is you are kind of isolated in the middle of nowhere; if your grid goes down, the power company can't divert power from other neighboring grids like they do up here.

Miulang

P.S. There were a couple of positive things that came out of this, though. One is that HECO had better figure out why the entire grid went down instead of just producing a brownout to accommodate that 12% loss of generator power, and I am truly grateful that this happened on a Sunday and early enough in the morning that most people were still at home. If you thought yesterday was a mess, think of how much worse it could have been if the earthquakes had struck around 10:30 a.m. on a workday (like our Nisqually quake did) with everybody having to leave their offices and sitting on the freeway trying to get home.

Last edited by Miulang; October 16th, 2006 at 03:10 PM.
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  #107  
Old October 16th, 2006, 03:14 PM
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Luckily we were preparing to bbq sunday night so we were all good with food. Friends came over and hung out, we watched DVD's on various laptops. Our power didnt get turned on until 1am, woke me up. Considered getting online but had an early morning so went back to sleep. Got up and booted up the PC but it seems that RR in Nuuanu is down.
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  #108  
Old October 16th, 2006, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
The reason why Honolulu's power went down and stayed down as long as it did is because of Oahu's power grid. It has more customers and is more complex than the power grids on the Neighbor Islands.

One bummer thing about Hawai'is power grids is you are kind of isolated in the middle of nowhere; if your grid goes down, the power company can't divert power from other neighboring grids like they do up here.
I'm wondering if Oahu's longer outtage is not just due to a bigger and more complex grid, but also the lack of redundancy in transmission lines in certain areas, particularly East Oahu. HECO has been pushing to build a new corridor of tranmission lines for years but NIMBY has always fought it. Don't remember who won that fight.
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  #109  
Old October 16th, 2006, 04:15 PM
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Default Re: Shake and Quake!

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Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
I'm wondering if Oahu's longer outtage is not just due to a bigger and more complex grid, but also the lack of redundancy in transmission lines in certain areas, particularly East Oahu. HECO has been pushing to build a new corridor of tranmission lines for years but NIMBY has always fought it. Don't remember who won that fight.
I think that's the corridor they planned to run directly over the UH-Manoa campus. Good thing it got shut down. Hopefully they come up with another plan to backup East Oahu's power.
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  #110  
Old October 16th, 2006, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike_Lowery View Post
I think that's the corridor they planned to run directly over the UH-Manoa campus. Good thing it got shut down. Hopefully they come up with another plan to backup East Oahu's power.
My "No on 138kv" sticker's still on my dresser. I had em just about everywhere while that was going on.
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  #111  
Old October 16th, 2006, 04:46 PM
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Default Re: Shake and Quake!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_Lowery View Post
I think that's the corridor they planned to run directly over the UH-Manoa campus. Good thing it got shut down. Hopefully they come up with another plan to backup East Oahu's power.
That would also get shut down? You can't demand a properly redundant, wide-loop power grid but print stickers and stage protests when they try to do just that. "Put it underground," comes the cry... but how much you wanna bet that (1.) environmentalists will still find a way to declare excavation even more of a threat to endangered critters, and (2.) residents will howl in a chorus when they get their next rate hike notice.

I agree that Honolulu is overbuilt and the infrastructure is weak... but the inadequacy of the infrastructure, let alone the costs of such development, must at least in part be related to NIMBY tendencies. Everyone complains about the next new subdivision... 'til their teenagers hit their late 20s and still can't find a place to live.
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  #112  
Old October 16th, 2006, 04:56 PM
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Funny you should mention Oahu being overbuilt, PZ. According to the geophysicist quoted in these earthquake FAQs on MSNBC, the weight of the islands do have some bearing on this particular type of earthquake (tectonic rather than volcanic).

Quote:
Does that mean that the sheer weight of the islands is what caused the quake?
In a general sense, yes. There are technical details, but that’s basically the idea. The buildup of the island is causing additional stresses.
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  #113  
Old October 16th, 2006, 05:03 PM
damontucker damontucker is offline
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Default Re: Shake and Quake!

Caues of Quake:

Quote:
...like Sunday's magnitude-6.7 that caused blackouts and landslides — are rare and are caused not by eruptions, but by the buildup of stress deep in the crust as volcanoes grow and spread, experts say.
Quote:
The crust is flexed by the weight of the island
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061016/...NlYwMlJVRPUCUl
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  #114  
Old October 16th, 2006, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Kelly0040 View Post
I was rather surprised at how many people had no real preparations for things like this. Earthquakes may not be common, but c'mon - how do folks not have a flashlight?
If I remember right I got at least 5 flashlights of different types in the house, I just can't remember where there all are and my place is a mess anyway (way before the earthquake hit). After the 3rd tremor shaked the building, I was kind of wondering if a 4th will come. I was trying to pack some things in a backpack in the event we had to leave the building (a 10+ story highrise) in case of a collapse. And I was debating what to take, my first impression was to take the laptop but after a few minutes later I decided it would weigh me down so I nixed that, pack a day worth of clothes, a roll of toilet paper, my medications, some cash I had in a box, a umbrella, a jacket (since it was raining) and spending about 5 to 10 minutes looking for a flashlight.

What I did during that time finding a flashlight was to pack some spare AA and AAA batteries since they were easy to find in my place and to use them for just in case I ran into someone who had a radio or flashlight with no batteries. What I was truely looking for was for a 4 AA cell flashlight from Coleman. This one had two modes, standard flashlight or as a lantern. Would be great in a shelter.

I couldn't find the Coleman but I did manage to find a 2 AA cell Maglight in one of my model rocketry range boxes and the light from it look strong.

I didn't take the radio with me since it was a unit with a CD player and used 6 C cells. I left that behind in the apartment. I did pack my cell phone and a FRS radio and then left the apartment to go downstairs.

For the next time I think what I need to get is a smaller AM/FM radio, one that runs on AA batteries. For that matter any battery operated device should be of one type. AA batteries seem about the best for cost and size.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
I'm wondering if Oahu's longer outtage is not just due to a bigger and more complex grid, but also the lack of redundancy in transmission lines in certain areas, particularly East Oahu. HECO has been pushing to build a new corridor of tranmission lines for years but NIMBY has always fought it. Don't remember who won that fight.
In yesterday's case I don't think redundant tranmission lines would have helped. The problem was with the generators going off-line not tranmissions going down due to high winds (or poles going down due to earthquakes).
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  #115  
Old October 16th, 2006, 05:26 PM
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NIMBY ..... another good word describing one aspect of the Politics of NO.

It is likely that Josh & PZ see the problem, while Lei & Mike scream "Who me?".

There's so many laws we can't hardly build a cheap enough dwelling anymore for the poorest folk, let alone get them some reliable electricity or sewer systems. Everybody complains (all the while pumping out more kids), but nobody thinks they are to blame.

It's been a good run for planners, feasibility study writers, companies that do EIS work, or anybody else involved in the dwelling industry who does NOT actually drive a tractor or swing a hammer. Here on Big Island, consultation is practically a cottage industry to a County Government overwhelmed to the point of intransigence by the people at every Public Hearing.

As Boomers age, the next 2 generations (Gen X & Y) will lead the way in undoing some of the ridiculous & costly obstacles that 35 years of protest & emotion-based ignorance have yielded. The crumbling infrastructure left behind will be the historical legacy of American Baby Boomers. I bet a dollar that history books in 200 years villify their short-sightedness. That's why they call it the ME generation. No need to build for the future if you don't care about your children's grandchildren. Better to Save the Planet than the humans.
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  #116  
Old October 16th, 2006, 06:07 PM
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Default Re: Shake and Quake!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
Funny you should mention Oahu being overbuilt, PZ. According to the geophysicist quoted in these earthquake FAQs on MSNBC, the weight of the islands do have some bearing on this particular type of earthquake (tectonic rather than volcanic).
Dear lord. For all the construction and human activity across the island chain, I'm pretty sure, in the geologic sense, that all that concrete and steel is barely like a leg hair on a fly on an elephant on a supertanker in the Caspian sea. A construction project might sink into a poorly set foundation, but weight wise, you could probably add a dozen Waikiki to Oahu and the Earth's crust wouldn't notice.

The "settling" in this quake is the same cause attributed to a rumble a month and a half ago... and the shifts in geologic mass are related to volcanic activity, not a new condo.
Quote:
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Better to Save the Planet than the humans.
When it comes to saving the Earth, the fact of the matter is, the worst we're going to do is make it uninhabitable for us and a few other critters. In the long view, we'd be forgotten in the blink of an eye... as we've only been here for a tenth of said blink. One of my favorite geology professors at UHH, Carl Johnson, used to have a quote that I printed and put on my dorm door about the planet not needing saving. It was doing just fine without us, and will have a good long run after we're gone.

Anyway. Earthquakes and power outages. Interesting stuff, yeah?
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  #117  
Old October 16th, 2006, 06:11 PM
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In the long view, we'd be forgotten in the blink of an eye... as we've only been here for a tenth of said blink.
Great chart. Here's an article that provides an extended discussion of the same thing.
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  #118  
Old October 16th, 2006, 06:15 PM
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Tim, while I find a lot of what you have to say interesting, you have this disconcerting tendency to throw out everything you have a problem with, and wave your hands around and say "ya know?!" as if it's all related Something I see a lot of in politics these days.

Another version of "ME!" is someone not giving a rat's 'okole what problems their own desires cause people -- such as build-up at the expense of not having any nature left to enjoy, or polluting rivers because economic build-up is more important than anything else. Sometimes people really do need to push back against a selfish interest to keep it from steamrolling the public's interests, but even good things can definitely be taken too far.

I think the basic problem is as you said, people having lots and lots of children and then not wanting to deal with the consequences of it. (Yes, children are wonderful, but they also multiply and produce population pressure. ) I'm not sure there's a really good voluntary solution to that.
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  #119  
Old October 16th, 2006, 06:33 PM
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Default Re: Shake and Quake!

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
I'm wondering if Oahu's longer outtage is not just due to a bigger and more complex grid, but also the lack of redundancy in transmission lines in certain areas, particularly East Oahu. HECO has been pushing to build a new corridor of tranmission lines for years but NIMBY has always fought it. Don't remember who won that fight.
BINGO!!! Oahu's reaction to the earthquake was more out of what happened when the power went out. And that's the more pressing concern for Oahu. It didn't have to be an earthquake hundreds of miles away to generate the chaos that Honolulu observed yesterday.

Meanwhile here on the Big Island where the damage was substantial and the reality right in the backyard in West Hawaii, news is all about how Oahu coped with the power outtage. That apparently is/was the more important news of the day.

I wanted to see coverage of West Hawaii in this morning's KHON 2 Morning news but it was all about Oahu. It was as if the quake's epicenter was right over Honolulu with all the coverage there instead of here on the Big Island where the most damage occured...DUH the epicenter was right off shore.

In Hilo we experienced the net effect of trying to stand on the bed of a moving pick up truck while travelling down a bumpy road. The shaking lasted for about a minute but definately over 30-seconds. I guess the two massive volcanoes of Mauna Kea and Mauna Loa shielded East Hawaii from any significant damage. As a matter of fact, only a couple of traffic lights were blinking in Hilo. We did have several black outs however not enough to keep me from building my cottage out back the rest of yesterday.

I hear Kona Home Depot had product all over the floors. Not a good place to be when an earthquake rattles the store. Those 12 and 16-foot steel racks are top loaded with the heavy stuff (table saws and stuff) to keep them off the floor so there's room for the more faster moving products. I think we may need to reaccess that policy.

Anyway I hope West Hawaii can recover from the devastation. On Oahu, well I think the State of Hawaii has to look closely at that island's power grid and keep it up and running because that was pretty much the problem there, not so much the quake itself. Anything else could have caused that kind of massive power outtage and the resulting chaos would be the same.

This kind of dependence on power illustrates how fragile a society can become when things like electricity stops flowing. Heaven forbid a stoppage of water or a dock strike

Me I whipped out my propane Coleman dual burner stove I use for camping and cooked breakfast for the kids and remarked how much we're saving in electricity by doing so. Turn lemons into lemonade as they say and roll with it.
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  #120  
Old October 16th, 2006, 07:11 PM
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To change the subject a bit:
Linda Lingle is golden. Talk about being in the right place at the right time. Getting the emergency declared so quickly. Putting in some face time with Kona PD, getting in a helicopter for a bird's eye view, flying to Oahu with the ANG. Her stock is up. No one can plan these events and it's a good thing Mufi isn't running for office. So where's Mufi? On his way back from Korea? We all Tingled With Lingle. Maybe we should ask Mufi what a nuclear test feels like? Pretty much the same thing?
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  #121  
Old October 16th, 2006, 07:14 PM
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Lingle did well. And lucky for her, she was as close as anyone could be to the epicenter of the quake. Imagine being in her shoes, in a hotel room on the Kona Gold Coast and deal with what she did? If anyone earned their bit of PR, she did.
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  #122  
Old October 16th, 2006, 07:15 PM
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So where's Mufi? On his way back from Korea? We all Tingled With Lingle.
I wonder... would you be praising Mufi if the circumstances were different, and Lingle was out of state in an official capacity while he was on the Big Island?

Maybe you tingle for Lingle, but she sure don't tickle my pickle.

Right place at the right time. And she did exactly what she was supposed to do when she declared an emergency and rallied the federal troops.

Glad to see at least one elected official not mess things up in an emergency. Pua'i is right: She earned that bit of PR yesterday.
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  #123  
Old October 16th, 2006, 07:33 PM
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Default Re: Shake and Quake!

One place Lingle forgot it seems was Honolulu International Airport where many people were stranded and no support system in place leaving many without food, water or clean toilets after hours at the terminals.

I understand those people could have simply walked out and gone somewhere else, but where? Not very many places open around the airport area on a Sunday morning. When Starbucks opened either that day or sometime this morning at the terminal, a tourist complained that Starbucks started price gouging customers for muffins raising the prices up a dollar with each passing moment it seems.

The airports need to be better equipped to deal with power outtages as indicated in this morning's coverage there.

I think Lingle had better add that to her to do list before re-election.
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  #124  
Old October 16th, 2006, 07:44 PM
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Default Re: Shake and Quake!

Hey, there was a tsunami after all!

Not that anyone'd notice. But considering we were at 6.6, and 7.2 was what smashed into Hilo in 1975 (IIRC), it's always good to know.

Civil defense is confident in stating they saw no tsunami threat within a few dozen minutes of the quake. Of course, quakes in the island chain move pretty quickly. And sometimes I wonder if the fancy siren system and the emergency broadcast system (which "takes over" local stations' signals) really would've worked yesterday if it had to.

If it was working, why not use that system to broadcast an all-clear? People were looking for tsunami information for over an hour after the quake, and had there been one by that point, many of them would be all wet.
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  #125  
Old October 16th, 2006, 07:49 PM
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Default Re: Shake and Quake!

The sirens don't broadcast an all-clear signal, that would normally come from the radio.

And one of the things that is said in the phone book, if you do feel a quake and are in the tsunami zone, just leave the area, don't wait for the sirens to go on.
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