Women in a man's world - What are your views?

[Miulang]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

And show me a woman that still complains about how bad it is, while driving her own car to work after dropping her kid off at school/daycare, then gets home in the evening where her man takes her out to dinner and pays for a babysitter and I'll show you...
oh never mind!

"We may never be equal but deserve the opportunity that equality provides."
I borrowed this from an earlier post.

I'm done with this thread. I wish us all the very best.

MM...there are enlightened men (like yourself and many others I know and associate with and like) and then there are the ones who mistreat women and children and think only of themselves. There are enlightened women and then there are those who want more than their fair share of things (we call them gold diggers or worse).

Maybe the ones who set bad examples are on this earth to show us how not to be in our relationships with other people?

Miulang

[joshuatree]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

MM...there are enlightened men (like yourself and many others I know and associate with and like) and then there are the ones who mistreat women and children and think only of themselves. There are enlightened women and then there are those who want more than their fair share of things (we call them gold diggers or worse).

Maybe the ones who set bad examples are on this earth to show us how not to be in our relationships with other people?

Miulang

Yes, there are enlightened women and men across the board but I certainly hope more would step up and say something about the disparity in any laws that screw innocent women and men over. I'm not gonna get on the soapbox like MM about my problems, it's still too sensitive and present for me, but I'm getting screwed over by the courts and by a psycho ex-gf as we speak. I'm frustrated and angry because no matter what evidence I have, and they are pretty rock solid evidence, the judges turn a blind eye and give me the shaft. Some on this board know about my problems personally and I thank them for listening.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

I'm getting screwed over by the courts and by a psycho ex-gf as we speak.

Sorry to hear that, jt. Unfairness knows no gender.

There have been many statements in this thread with which I agree, and many attitudes that I'm surprised to see in 21st-century America. As men and women, we all still have much work to do to improve our relationships with each other.

[anapuni808]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

Cranberee, it is sad that you can't see what I recognize, and I have posted some of it quite clearly, but you are right, your mind is set and so is mine.

Anapuni, were there a couple that actually suffered the fields, the jungles and the front lines? I suppose, if true, that there's an exception to every rule, right? Yep...however, I know the relatives, hubby, friends and his friends that were in 'Nam don't need your nor my agreement with the history that they lived, and that it was our country's policy to not have women on the front lines. In fact, the few that possibly were could have been there against policy. the many men I have heard reports from had no reason to lie, and I certainly know my hubby and his command did not serve with women in 'Nam. It was all male marines. anyone can "disagree" all they want, he was there, he lived it, as did others I am close to.

Thanks for continuing dialogue. We prove, unlike other websites that debate can happen without lowering ourselves to obnoxious levels.

Karen, I would suggest you go to this website & do a little reading. You might be surprised.

http://www.vietnamwomensmemorial.org/intro.html

[anapuni808]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

Now I am also taking myself out of this thread. There is too much heartbreaking ignorance of issues and actions done among many of the participants.

However, it was a joy to meet all the true feminsts here - both male & female!

[newroots]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

That guy is a very bad man.. I think he should be locked away in a cell for a long time.



About the women in a mans world thing. In my ancient culture. the maga'haga (women chief) was a bit more powerful then the maga'lahi.(male chief) ... becuase her word taken into much consideration by the maga'lahi and it was highly respected and valued.



When i asked my grandmother the question ''Why can't women be preists?''

she told me somthing like ... women are more easy to tempt or something like that.


My ultimate view on a women's status in a ''mans world'' .. is that .. it shouldn't matter what sex a person is. They should be respected by u know... their character and morals and stuff.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

There is no dodge, but truth and wisdom in what I said. You just don't like it, apparently.

no I just want a straight answer from you.

Sorry, to continue....no, I would speak the same. Christianity has a good and a bad side. If you ask one person if it is good and they've been hammered by hypocrites, then "christianity" is bad, to them. If you ask someone that has been neighbors with a true christian, yada yada, then it is a good thing, to them, but what about the leaders of the movement? what about their lobbying efforts? Is christianity, today.......good or bad? tell ya what, if and when you can find the REAL thing, then it's good. I see a ton of fake christianity, and know a few that seem to be real, the individuals.

Are the rights worth it? I've spoken up, lobbied and fought all of my life for only what was "worth it." We have good feminists on HT here, did I not say? that doesn't give you a hint how I feel about feminism? or you just wanted me to say more, in hoping I'd say something you could find fault with?

I am trying my best to hear you: I ask about the big picture for that is where my focus is, what I think about, what the point™ is. You see it differently-- your focus is the people. Not the movement, not the point™. The people. It isn't about advancements or struggles, but what individuals do with their individual advancements/struggles.

Am I getting you, Karen?

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

I tried hard to stay out of this conversation. Feminism, like unions, started as a good thing but I think factions or certain groups under the label have abused the progress made and have used the advantages to exact "revenge" on men in general. Why do I say that? Because I fail to see why when a men's rights group filing a class action lawsuit to simply reword funding for domestic violence shelters to the words "gender neutral" to include any victims of DV instead of current "women and children" only, feminist groups need to agressively oppose this. Why deny male victims of DV? Yes, it does happen because just like all races or all males, there are also good women and evil women. Men suffering from DV don't suffer as much from physical violence but more from false accusations in court or having children used against him. Why are biological dads constantly denied of their parental rights in adoption cases? Why are feminist lobbying groups opposed to giving the guy a fair shake in court for his child?

Waitaminit...things have come a looong way in this area.

Case in point: if two gainfully employed people are divorcing, the law stipulates that all discussions start from the mean and then slide out:

child support:
* x = determined monthly child maintenance costs. Both parents start at x/2, then adjusts and slides according to income, life insurance, health insurance coverage, etc.

alimony:
*doesn't happen anymore. Went out with acid-washed jeans, because that sucker is tax-deductible to the cat who pays it.

custody: similar to above. Depending on the age of the child, joint legal custody is pretty much the norm, with physical custody being tailored to each family, based on circumstances.

these are also elements of the feminist movement. Parity. Equality. Don't confuse politics and agendas with actual advancement in this area.

[joshuatree]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

Waitaminit...things have come a looong way in this area.

Case in point: if two gainfully employed people are divorcing, the law stipulates that all discussions start from the mean and then slide out:

child support:
* x = determined monthly child maintenance costs. Both parents start at x/2, then adjusts and slides according to income, life insurance, health insurance coverage, etc.

alimony:
*doesn't happen anymore. Went out with acid-washed jeans, because that sucker is tax-deductible to the cat who pays it.

custody: similar to above. Depending on the age of the child, joint legal custody is pretty much the norm, with physical custody being tailored to each family, based on circumstances.

these are also elements of the feminist movement. Parity. Equality. Don't confuse politics and agendas with actual advancement in this area.

How have I confused politics and agendas with actual advancement? I acknowledged feminism as a good thing in the beginning but these days, the cause is often hijacked by certain groups or factions. You state a lot of what is supposedly fair but many men's experience speak otherwise. Heck, even pets have more protection than men in DV situations.

http://www.glennsacks.com/ca_legislators_vote.htm

And check out how the system screws men over.

http://lacochildsupport.org/index.html

Keep in mind, I am not saying there aren't women who get screwed over. I strongly believe in advancement for women. What I don't get is the need for certain "feminist" lobbying groups to promote torturing innocent men as some sort of payback. We may have come a long way but there is still a much longer way to go.

[Keanu]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

So who wants to ride the hot tamale train?

[Karen]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

no I just want a straight answer from you.



I am trying my best to hear you: I ask about the big picture for that is where my focus is, what I think about, what the point™ is. You see it differently-- your focus is the people. Not the movement, not the point™. The people. It isn't about advancements or struggles, but what individuals do with their individual advancements/struggles.

Am I getting you, Karen?

You got straight answers from me, but you didn't SEE them. I have made myself quite clear about there being GOOD feminists, and bad ones. Is the movement good as a whole? That's like asking me if the catholic church is good. It's HUGE, and there's been a lot of priests indicted for horrible things done to kids, then there's this secret vatican that no telling how it is really won, and then there's the millions of WONDERFUL members. You want me to sum up the whole feminist movement? Sorry, you ask too much.

There's a lot of radical bullsh@t from "leaders" of this movement while there's millions of wonderful gals "in the trenches."

If my answer isn't good enough for you then perhaps you should examine yourself and your reasons for asking for whatever you want, and then claim it's a straight answer. better yet, reread every one of my posts and I think you'll get where I'm coming from.

Yes, I focus on the individuals because as a movement it's like congress...we have two extremes and then the sane ones in the middle. I have read sanity in the middle, pretty balanced for the most part, on this thread except for the BS I found and posted of quotes of some of the radical nutsoid feminist rant. Problem is, there's more of them that could be posted.

I have fought injustice all of my life, but not with some celebrity or anything that you'd recognize. I know it when I see it, injustice and it stinks to hell and back. I have never thought of myself as a feminist because I am not. I fight the good fight and when it's a woman suffering injustice BECAUSE she's a woman, then my fight serves the feminist movement very well.

I will never fight just for women, nor align myself with a lot of the celebs that call themselves feminists, and yes, I do mean the lunatic fringe. However, there's some wonderful, balanced and sane gals that call themselves feminists, so yes, it must be about the individual. I will not ever give money to the NOW organization while I will be in the trenches, when needed or faced with some clear injustice because a woman is one.

I hope this helps you understand where I am coming from on this.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

You got straight answers from me, but you didn't SEE them. I have made myself quite clear about there being GOOD feminists, and bad ones. Is the movement good as a whole? That's like asking me if the catholic church is good. It's HUGE, and there's been a lot of priests indicted for horrible things done to kids, then there's this secret vatican that no telling how it is really won, and then there's the millions of WONDERFUL members. You want me to sum up the whole feminist movement? Sorry, you ask too much.

There's a lot of radical bullsh@t from "leaders" of this movement while there's millions of wonderful gals "in the trenches."

If my answer isn't good enough for you then perhaps you should examine yourself and your reasons for asking for whatever you want, and then claim it's a straight answer. better yet, reread every one of my posts and I think you'll get where I'm coming from.

Yes, I focus on the individuals because as a movement it's like congress...we have two extremes and then the sane ones in the middle. I have read sanity in the middle, pretty balanced for the most part, on this thread except for the BS I found and posted of quotes of some of the radical nutsoid feminist rant. Problem is, there's more of them that could be posted.

I have fought injustice all of my life, but not with some celebrity or anything that you'd recognize. I know it when I see it, injustice and it stinks to hell and back. I have never thought of myself as a feminist because I am not. I fight the good fight and when it's a woman suffering injustice BECAUSE she's a woman, then my fight serves the feminist movement very well.

I will never fight just for women, nor align myself with a lot of the celebs that call themselves feminists, and yes, I do mean the lunatic fringe. However, there's some wonderful, balanced and sane gals that call themselves feminists, so yes, it must be about the individual. I will not ever give money to the NOW organization while I will be in the trenches, when needed or faced with some clear injustice because a woman is one.

I hope this helps you understand where I am coming from on this.

Not true. I have read this whole thread and your responses. I pay attention to what you say.

When it comes to making societal change, you cite people instead of the change. Feminism and the point of equality and parity earns no example from your keyboard, instead you focus on citing the weird and out-there to discredit the movement. Even drawing on comparitives wrt Christianity, you stick to the weird and out-there (pedophilia/sex predators are weird and out-there) instead of the change that JC, his life and sacrifices brought about mankind. Those answers are dodges. Swallowing camels and spitting out flies. If they weren’t, you would have been consistent: where you clearly admit no experience, you wouldn’t have made sweeping generalizations (female bosses, female presidents, neither of which you have had, but still you prefer that you not). Answers of convenience, what you say and what you do not, are stuff that I pay attention to. So yeah, I do hear you. And I am calling you on it.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

How have I confused politics and agendas with actual advancement? I acknowledged feminism as a good thing in the beginning but these days, the cause is often hijacked by certain groups or factions. You state a lot of what is supposedly fair but many men's experience speak otherwise. Heck, even pets have more protection than men in DV situations.

http://www.glennsacks.com/ca_legislators_vote.htm

And check out how the system screws men over.

http://lacochildsupport.org/index.html

Keep in mind, I am not saying there aren't women who get screwed over. I strongly believe in advancement for women. What I don't get is the need for certain "feminist" lobbying groups to promote torturing innocent men as some sort of payback. We may have come a long way but there is still a much longer way to go.

I completely agree with you, JT. I have seen many women believe that when it comes to support and custody issues, that many still think they have the upper hand, when in fact they do not. It pisses me off when some think they should have the upper hand. Why? Because I once was one.

Several years ago when my husband and I put ourselves in a really bad patch, I sought out the advice of a divorce atty. The advice I provided earlier was the same given to me. It was the most humbling I had ever had. I needed to hear it. And it did much to open my mind, not only to see my own faults better, but what the state of divorce™ really would offer each of us adults as well as our children. Seven years later, I am glad that we stuck it out and worked through it.

Fathers and mothers love their children. Children deserve both parents. I know many fathers who are better parents than the mothers and many children who find their fathers safer, stronger, and more stable.

I am sorry for your experience and hope for the best for all concerned, JT.

[Karen]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

You've called me on nothing but proven you don't discern people well, don't read between the lines as good as you think you do, and heck, you don't even remember all that you read.

You don't need "examples" of what good feminism has already accomplished.

You have called me on nothing.....because I have never had a female boss and say I don't want one. I will not have one, and that is why I haven't, and you insinuate I can't refuse what I don't want? Point not well taken. it is absurd you even brought this up.

My example of using the catholic church, because of its vastness, comparing that to your wanting me to say if the feminist movement as a whole...is good or bad, was perfectly fitting in its context. Again, you're grasping at straws and wrong about this. JC did wonderful things that still aid us today, but "the movement" in His name.......that is another story, and you fail to SEE this? Nah! You grasp....and you are failing.

When I suggested you reread me I wasn't being a smart-aleck about it, I meant it. I suggest you do, still.

I have clearly said on this thread that there are good, even wonderful feminists, and that there are also nutsoid ones. You can't see it, sorry for you, but I said it and it remains so. Since it is so, there is no way you will force me to sum up the whole movement and label it good, or bad.

Does your pride need the last word? If so....go for it. I've been thorough and I've been clear. Grasp if you need to, hell, diagram my sentences like one thumper did when the heart of my messages to her couldn't be gainsayed.

I may or may not even read your reply. It's been fun.

[cynsaligia]

Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

commenting here quickly bcs my prince charming will soon get astride his chariot and sweep me away from work (yes, i know that's an ironic statement to make due to this thread's subject matter).

re my "show me a man who.." statement, my apologies to MM & JT--it was late, i was tired, and i had intended to put in an introductory phrase along the lines of, "since you're (KK) going to make sweeping statements like that, let me make this one...."

hope that helps...and i hope that MM reads this even tho he's decided to bow out of this thread.

as for karen--let me take the liberty of restating PM and my own questions/comments as clearly as possible:

how can you say you are for feminist causes, goals when you make sweeping statements like "I have never had a female boss and say I don't want one. I will not have one..." and make similar declarations about how you would not want a female POTUS? that's total BS. i mean, let's look at it this way:

"i'm for equality between the races but i will never accept a black president or a black boss."

"i'm for accepting all sexual orientations but i will never accept a transgendered boss or transgendered boss."

i'm hoping you see now why PM and i look at you and laugh out loud, literally.

JT & MM--your ambivalences or difficulties with the feminist movement, i understand and can accept. i agree there are radical feminists whose opinions i don't agree with in practice, but i guess i'm kinda like blacks in the civil rights era who didn't agree with malcolm x's radical ideas but accepted them. this is because, as i said, the great social movements need radicals to get things going--it's the moderates whose policies/practices generally become the accepted path toward healing wrongs. this is why i can be angry--livid, in fact--that some of my male friends were denied fair treatment during a child support/custody but yet accept that radical feminists are necessary to keep pushing the movement forward. ultimately, i would like to see a world where the differences between men and women are accepted by both men and women but not used as a sweeping reason to exclude or discredit or mistreat one or the other.

i would also like to reinforce something others have said here (miulang? i forget who, sorry, but kudos to you): had women been allowed to serve in previous wars like vietname, i'm sure they would have done our country just as proud as the men already have. see, when it comes to service to our country, i don't think women are asking that certain standards be lowered to accommodate them. nope--i think they're asking for the opportunity to prove they're just as capable. and if a 125 lb woman can do on the battlefront what a 185 lb or heavier man can do, then god bless her and god bless america! it's stupid, stupid, STUPID (yep, i said it three times) to make blanket statements that one is glad "no woman" ever served next to him. i bet you pick out five women real quick (maybe from waianae or kahuku side--wotchutink?), give them the necessary and similar training that karen's hubby got, and have them do just as well as he did, if not better, bcs they have that fire of having to prove themselves to be just as good if not better than mr. karen did.

i'm going to quote badly something someone else said, ---

ginger rogers did everything fred astaire did....but in heels, and backwards.