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  • Re: Rail Transit

    Dang my son got a lot of toys cars for Christmas. He should have gotten a city bus or a rail replica.
    just started: mililaniblog.com

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    • Re: Rail Transit

      Originally posted by mapen View Post
      At a cost of 6 billion, the rail will cost you, your wife/husband/SO, and all your children over $6000 EACH.
      That's assuming we get billied in a single year. Amortized over 20 years it's $300/year, assuming that the State of Hawaii is footing the entire bill. However, the federal government will carry a significant portion of that burden, anywhere from half to 80 percent of it. If the feds cover 70 percent of that cost, over 20 years each of the 1 million individuals in Hawaii pay about $90/year for the construction of the system.

      Again, compare rail transit to other costs. From the Advertiser, Nov 27, 1998: "A 1996 national study showed rush-hour delays cost each Oahu driver $540 a year in fuel and lost time. Honolulu was ranked 12th worst among the 50 U.S. cities studied." You can bet that figure has gone up in the past 10 years. And as it is, that's almost twice what each person would pay for a transit system over the next two decades.

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      • Re: Rail Transit

        Originally posted by Palolo Joe View Post
        If anyone is making a personal attack in this thread, it's you. Go ahead and take the low road Mel. You know I couldn't care less if you get your panties in a bunch.
        And once again you take off your pants and slosh your wet stained panties into the fray when you have nothing else to say.


        Only 5 days before taxes go up. Buy your big ticket items today.
        I'm still here. Are you?

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        • Re: Rail Transit

          A few questions stick in my mind about this transit project assuming it's rail.

          1) Will it be just one train or made of several trains
          2) How often will it run?
          3) Will it be a 24 hour operation?
          4) Would TheBus still operate routes that run parallel to the rail?

          Comment


          • Re: Rail Transit

            Originally posted by pzarquon View Post
            You so relentlessly take the "woe is me, I'm a minority" tack, it's hard to imagine that you, too, choose to remain in Hawaii, for all the injustices heaped upon you. But obviously you do. (Otherwise, PJ has amply demonstrated there's an alternative.)
            I was born and raised here as you well know, and I don't want to move. But I also don't want to pay more for everything either. 2004 the bottle tax. 2007 the rail tax. Higher property taxes. Return of GET on the mandated ethenol in gasoline. What's next? It's a never ending spiral... you know it. More money out of your wallet.

            But then again, you all won. I am the minority on this board. I am just stating the obvious fact just by the number of mean responses I am getting and the personal attacks you are allowing by people such as PJ who always throws his wet panties around everytime he is frustrated.

            HawaiiThreads mean? It continues to be so.
            Especially if you are conservative and in the minority and express that viewpoint.

            Originally posted by pzarquon View Post
            My only hope, as others have said, that with most oars finally in the water paddling toward the same horizon, lesser people don't find a new mission in trying to sabotage and sink the boat. (I'm looking at you, Djou.) There are lots of reasons to oppose rail, I concede... but the vote is taken, the course is clear, and the mission now should be to help steer things responsibly (the countdown begins now for the first of many campaign finance and other investigations related to this big build!), not claim the title of martyr and take everyone else down with you.
            Yes. The vote is taken. YOU WON. Why waste time continually lecturing me and the few other opponents on this board.

            Perhaps it is time to close this subject thread. Open a new one up where only cheerleaders for rail and more taxes are allowed. Maybe I might even permanently go away from this major portion of the board as the panty man so wishes.

            Only 5 days to more taxes.
            Last edited by mel; December 26, 2006, 08:41 AM.
            I'm still here. Are you?

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            • Re: Rail Transit

              Originally posted by Composite 2992 View Post
              The issue of neighbor islanders paying for a rail transit system they'll never use is not unlike people on Oahu paying taxes that pay for roads and bridges on the neighbor islands that they'll never use. It comes with being part of a state.
              The major difference between the regular portion of the GET and the surcharge portion of the GET is the fact that the surcharge is a dedicated tax applied only to the transit plan specifically for Honolulu-Oahu. The rest of the GET is allocated to the State's general fund where through the legislative process tax money is appropriated to various uses throughout the state. As things stand now, the increased portion of GET only goes to fund transit on Oahu which truly is unfair to all neighbor islanders.
              Last edited by mel; December 26, 2006, 08:39 AM.
              I'm still here. Are you?

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              • Re: Rail Transit

                Originally posted by mapen View Post
                At a cost of 6 billion, the rail will cost you, your wife/husband/SO, and all your children over $6000 EACH.
                Typical overstatement by nay-sayers. The full route with the Waikiki spur estimated by the AA is $5.5 billion with a 33% cost overrun factored into it. The other $500 million is for The Bus so that happens regardless, not unless you want to shut down The Bus too. So instead of spending all your efforts on trying to sabotage an officially voted project, if you spend your effort on making sure this project is on time and on budget, the actual build cost is $3.685 billion. Or if divided roughly by Oahu's ~900k population, $4094 a person. Over 15 years (I believe the GET surcharge is for 15 years), that's about $273 a person annually. And as composite said, there is nothing to say the city cannot find other sources of revenue to supplement this project. Maybe now that the vote is taken, we should focus on getting the city to also find additional sources of revenue instead of sabotage?

                I still think it's a great idea if they built retail space into the stations. Not a lot, but enough for things like Starbucks, Post Office, ATMs, 7-11, Florists, McDs, drycleaner? Things that add more convenience for commuters since nay-sayers whine about having chores to do. The rents collected can be used to offset rail costs.

                Originally posted by mapen View Post
                Just imagine a family of four in Hilo, Hawaii. Their fair share of the cost of rail is over $24,000. And they would have to get on a plane and fly to Oahu just to use it.
                I would rather focus on seeing how the GET surcharge can be applied fairly and not drag the neighbor islands into our project instead of throwing out Chicken Little stats to stir up animosity and sabotage. But then again, that's typical of some of the people of Hawaii.

                Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
                However, I think the property prices (and rents) are likely to rise in the areas serviced by rail because it's not easier to get to work. Then what?
                Your thought intrigues me because it sounds like you don't believe rail will be a success? Yet you think the real estate around the rail will go up. How is that possible?

                If you do think rail will be successful, this is why I strongly believe the city itself should dabble in real estate around the rail. Build "affordable" housing units. One, you keep the real estate in check. Two, another source of revenue to fund the rail.

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                • Re: Rail Transit

                  Originally posted by helen View Post
                  A few questions stick in my mind about this transit project assuming it's rail.

                  1) Will it be just one train or made of several trains
                  2) How often will it run?
                  3) Will it be a 24 hour operation?
                  4) Would TheBus still operate routes that run parallel to the rail?
                  1 & 2 -- it would be several trains running simultaneously. Intervals, reportedly, can be as frequent as five minutes. Each train can consist of a different number of cars to adjust for ridership.

                  In a fully automated system it's certainly possible to maintain a high-level of train frequency with excellent safeguards against accidents. GPS position systems are accurate to less than 30 feet with speed measurements in fractions of a mile-per-hour. Computer control may sound scary until you realize that many critical aircraft flight systems in many types of aircraft (Airbus A300, F-15, F-16) are computer controlled, including the flight surfaces themselves (ailerons, flaps, elevator, etc). It's possible to run the system unmanned, the way that elevators in buildings are unmanned. Labor costs are reduced and reliability increased.

                  3 -- Hours of operation? Good question. Even theBus shuts down around 11 p.m.

                  4 -- theBus would be an essential feeder system to the main line. Whether it'll also run parallel to the main line is a good point. Each can provide a backup to the other as no system if absolutely failure proof.
                  Last edited by Composite 2992; December 26, 2006, 08:51 AM.

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                  • Re: Rail Transit

                    Originally posted by Pua'i Mana'o View Post
                    I wish we would be proactive and look at mass transit solutions for the neighbor isles NOW. Maui could sure use it, as could the Big Isle.
                    I definitely agree with you about the situation on Maui, Pua'i. Even though there is now sort of a public bus system available, those buses are also caught in the middle of the traffic jams on the Piilani and Honoapiilani Hwys especially, so while they do offer an alternative, it's not a very efficient one.

                    It would be so cool if Maui could have either a fixed rail or monorail system going between Wailea and Lahaina and either Kahului or Wailuku, and maybe a feeder line from Upcountry (terminal with a large park and ride in Pukalani, maybe?). I know if something like that existed, it would not only help out the locals to get to their jobs, but the tourists would also find it useful. Driving on Maui is no fun at all; sometimes it gets as bad as the worst traffic jams I encounter up here. And that reverse-lane situation coming down from Pukalani gives me the creeps...it's a wonder that there haven't been more head on traffic accidents from people driving the wrong direction in the mornings and afternoons when that one inside lane reverses.

                    Miulang
                    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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                    • Re: Rail Transit

                      Originally posted by helen View Post
                      A few questions stick in my mind about this transit project assuming it's rail.

                      1) Will it be just one train or made of several
                      That has yet to be decided. One of the next steps is for the council/city to decide what technology, monorail, rail on steel wheels, rail on rubber wheels, rail on magnets (personally I think that one is too unproven to seriously consider). Then whatever tech is decided, it will be several trains to provide frequency.

                      Originally posted by helen View Post
                      2) How often will it run?
                      IIRC, AA stated during peak hours, a train every 3 min at a station and usually every 6 min.

                      Originally posted by helen View Post
                      3) Will it be a 24 hour operation?
                      Again, IIRC, AA stated hours of op from 4AM to 12AM, 4 hours downtime for cleanup and maintenance.

                      Originally posted by helen View Post
                      4) Would TheBus still operate routes that run parallel to the rail?
                      Most of the parallel routes will be removed. Buses will be rerouted to do more North-South routes to run deeper into neighborhoods and also to provide new service to unserved areas. The AA estimates with rail, the 2030 bus fleet will be ~240. Right now, it's over 500. So the rail will definitely remove a few buses off the road.

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                      • Re: Rail Transit

                        Originally posted by Miulang View Post
                        It would be so cool if Maui could have either a fixed rail or monorail system going between Wailea and Lahaina
                        Maui already has rail transit: The Sugar Cane Train! :-)

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                        • Re: Rail Transit

                          Originally posted by Composite 2992 View Post
                          Maui already has rail transit: The Sugar Cane Train! :-)
                          That doesn't count. Until around 1950 or so, though, Maui did have a commuter rail line (Kahului RR...I even have some tokens from that line!) that ran from H'poko to Kahului, and I think there was an extension from Kahului to Wailuku, too (I think the Wailuku Station was at the corner of Market and Main St. next to the old National Dollar Store). And Honolulu used to have cable cars, too.

                          Miulang
                          "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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                          • Re: Rail Transit

                            Originally posted by mel View Post
                            Yes. The vote is taken. YOU WON. Why waste time continually lecturing me and the few other opponents on this board.
                            You ever had a kid who was angry at you when out in public, and just sits down on the concrete and refuses to move? Puts all their weight into keeping you from moving them? There's still a good reason to want even the grudging support of rail opponents. It's quite possible for it to turn into even more of a drag than it might have been because of people trying to downgrade it and sabotage it. Still end up paying the taxes, and get a much crappier light rail for it.

                            You guys still have a very worthy and noble task ahead of you even if the gov't is hell-bent on putting in the rail: watching like hawks to make sure that it is no more expensive or burdensome than promised.

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                            • Re: Rail Transit

                              Originally posted by Bard View Post
                              You guys still have a very worthy and noble task ahead of you even if the gov't is hell-bent on putting in the rail: watching like hawks to make sure that it is no more expensive or burdensome than promised.
                              That is part of the oppostion process. Divide and conquer which is what rail is also successfully doing.


                              General Excise Tax Surcharge Will Hurt Hawaii's Economy
                              I'm still here. Are you?

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                              • Re: Rail Transit

                                Originally posted by mel View Post
                                You will get your train. You will get more taxes. I have to pay. You too. You won.

                                Of course, you already won. The only thing opponents can do is continually nit pick on this every step of the way in hope the entire thing will be (unlikely) scrapped. It will be expensive no matter what.

                                I say it again. You won. Opponents lost. More money taken away from us. We pay more. You pay more. We all pay more. The beginning of a bottomless pit.
                                Up to now I can understand your view against raising taxes for rail transit since in eariler posts you do not want to ride the rail or other mass transit, you would rather drive. However we do have a traffic congestion problem that needs to be addressed. Since none of us wants to move away and this problem is going to get worse as more people stay something needs to be done.

                                Instead of rail would more roads being built be the answer to this problem? Even doing that it is going to cost money to do and one needs to raise taxes to get that done. Would you rather see those monies going to build more roads? It might be something that the Neighbor Islands might do with their share of the transit GET if they decided mass transit is not what they want.

                                As far as Oahu is concerned, right now in this moment in time no one has won and it won't be until an operational system is in place. Right now everything is in the planning stages.

                                And by the way an successful mass transit system does benfit you too. The more people who take it, the less people they are on the road.

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