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Why are there no magnet schools in Hawaii?

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  • #16
    Re: Why are there no magnet schools in Hawaii?

    Originally posted by Pua'i Mana'o View Post
    "Crap public education" is worse than a blanket statement. It's a myth.

    Rock. And. Roll. What she said.

    We all know that every school system every where has its struggles. There is a school on the Windward side, where our complex supervisor used to teach, that is ALWAYS on the bottom of the annual Honolulu Magazine's schools ranking to the question "Would you ever send your kid to the school you teach at? (not verbatim, no one ever ends sentence with AT!!!, LOL!) Anyway, every one of the teachers at this particular school says "NO!" because it is a school that has in its student body children from the nearby youth correctional facility. Of course it is right to teach these children as well, but the atmosphere must be quite challenging, and intimidating to many of the students. Might hinder learning.
    Aloha from Lavagal

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    • #17
      Re: Why are there no magnet schools in Hawaii?

      okay - I got carried away and I apologize for being a rear-end Thanks everyone

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      • #18
        Re: Why are there no magnet schools in Hawaii?

        Originally posted by rosiev View Post
        okay - I got carried away and I apologize for being a rear-end Thanks everyone
        Surprise! You can always count on a push back here at HT! No offense taken. Just want you, RosieV, to appreciate the bigger picture. And believe me, an annual magazine survey, which I know you did not refer to, but I did, is really no authority on how our schools rate.

        From our discussion at the recent SCC meeting, the questions are considered quite naive--and we are in a highly rated complex. If you were to ask parents, teachers and administrators at any particular school what its assets and deficits were, you'd get a better idea. The imposed competition among schools in a magazine survey is bit mean spirited, IMHO. Honestly, when a publication comes out with its BEST OF... "contests," am I the only person who thinks that it's more of an advertising vehicle, with the winner being the one who has paid the most to the publication, and less of a public opinion poll?

        I was going to say that although an annual survey of schools doesn't generate much revenue, I am assuming that would be wrong. I would imagine that this is a highly circulated edition, consequently attracting advertising dollars.

        We debated the idea of talking with an editor about the survey. But I am sure an invitation to our complex SCC meeting would be met with cynicism and scepticism. And that's too bad because we are really at the grassroots of helping our schools become so much better. Even we have a healthy reservation when it comes to the behemoth DOE, but we are optimistic that parents of students, teachers and administrators at the schools can approach the dragon and affect change. I happen to think the International Baccaulaureate Program is a step in that direction. And please note, we aren't doing it just for the kids in our complex. Any child on Oahu can apply for a geographic exception (GE). I don't know what the considerations would be, but it's out there. I understand we have a child from Kaaawa and some from Waianae attending Niu now.

        I feel it is only right to add that I am a former employee of The Honolulu Advertiser, PBN, and have recently closed my column in the East Oahu Sun. I am now a senior writer for HMSA (NOT Island Scene). I am married to a newsman, and our children go to the same school that he and his four sisters attended. I am on fire about public education, something I feel I caught from my father-in-law, who is also a strong public schools advocate. I do not have the teaching chops that Scrivener has, just the boiling parental drive to want to make it possible for Hawaii's public school children to succeed. Yours, mine, everyone's!
        Last edited by lavagal; June 15, 2008, 01:50 PM. Reason: whose to who has (shame!)
        Aloha from Lavagal

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        • #19
          Re: Why are there no magnet schools in Hawaii?

          Originally posted by rosiev View Post
          okay - I got carried away and I apologize for being a rear-end Thanks everyone
          not at all! This is an excellent topic and I am glad you brought it up.

          pax

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          • #20
            Re: Why are there no magnet schools in Hawaii?

            This was definitely a great topic. I had vague thoughts about public schools with specialties (drama in particular... my alma mater had a program in partnership with two others), but otherwise couldn't articulate things nearly as well as everyone else here. And I definitely learned a lot about how the school-by-school "GT" program works.

            I'm a proud public school grad and have generally been happy with my own kids' public school education. I haven't come across any failing for which adjusting my own parenting hasn't been the most appropriate solution. Frankly, I'm actually finding first-hand that it's what happens outside the classroom that factors most heavily in how kids turn out.

            And one of my kids has been in "special education" his whole school-age life so far, and the program (however strapped for cash and populated largely by low-income students) has been fantastic.

            Official test scores and subjective magazine rankings don't really tell you much, and may even misdirect you. I know there are serious, serious issues throughout the DOE, but there's no reason a kid can't come out of it with what he or she needs to be a successful person.

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            • #21
              Re: Why are there no magnet schools in Hawaii?

              Here Here for Puai. I think the education system in Hawaii is just fine also. My happy, soon to be 2nd grader, is doing just fine, socially, academically, etc. There is one HUGE problem in the school though. It's the students and their families. School is the ultimate place where "one bad apple can spoil the whole barrel". I have already had a couple "face to face" communications with the parents of future convicts who are "disruptive."

              It is ironic that so much money is spent on the mentally "challenged", and so little on the "gifted." For it is the gifted children who are most likely to become the leaders of industry, science, and commerce. And the rising tide lifts all the boats, even the ones with slower passengers. This is most certainly a "liberal philosophy" problem, where success and achievement is villified, and mediocrity is desirable. Remember, life is NOT fair.

              I would love to start a magnet school in Hawaii centered on Football. It would have to include Cheerleaders and a rocking marching Band. Lots of big, fast, smart, tough, agile, strong children coming out of Hawaii.
              FutureNewsNetwork.com
              Energy answers are already here.

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              • #22
                Re: Why are there no magnet schools in Hawaii?

                Originally posted by timkona View Post
                It is ironic that so much money is spent on the mentally "challenged", and so little on the "gifted." For it is the gifted children who are most likely to become the leaders of industry, science, and commerce. And the rising tide lifts all the boats, even the ones with slower passengers. This is most certainly a "liberal philosophy" problem, where success and achievement is villified, and mediocrity is desirable. Remember, life is NOT fair.
                That's one way to look at what's been a major problem in gifted education for quite a long time. I don't know if the underfunding of gifted education is so much a celebration of mediocrity as of this idea most people have that the smart kids will find a way, which they usually do. This, of course, is unfair to them. But it's true that GT education doesn't get as much attention as it should; I think it's a larger version of what happens in any large classroom (I know, because I've had to struggle with this): Every student could use a little more attention from the teacher, but it's the ones who struggle (or who act out) who get it the most. When I have a hundred essays to grade, and each essay takes twelve minutes, that's only five essays per hour. The students who do well are more likely to have only seven minutes spent on their essays (yes, I know this is unfair; believe me, I tried my best) while the students who do poorly will have twenty minutes spent on theirs.

                Smaller classes, I tell you.
                But I'm disturbed! I'm depressed! I'm inadequate! I GOT IT ALL! (George Costanza)
                GrouchyTeacher.com

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                • #23
                  Re: Why are there no magnet schools in Hawaii?

                  Perhaps, somewhere, around the 3rd or 4th grade, kids should be split into smaller classroom sizes, where the criteria is based on achievement. In this way, the GT kids are together, and the "also-ran's" are together.

                  PS - What does GT stand for exactly?
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                  Energy answers are already here.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Why are there no magnet schools in Hawaii?

                    Originally posted by timkona View Post
                    Perhaps, somewhere, around the 3rd or 4th grade, kids should be split into smaller classroom sizes, where the criteria is based on achievement. In this way, the GT kids are together, and the "also-ran's" are together.

                    PS - What does GT stand for exactly?
                    I know Scrivener is explaining this all very well, but, my girl is GT, Gifted and Talented. From what I understand the GT and the special needs kids are funded from the same account. I must also say that I think it's actually a better idea to integrate the kids, so the brighter ones inspire the others. One of the nice things about my girls' school is that special needs kids are fully integrated. No one is set apart like a freak. Therefore, the kids are actually growing up together, enjoying each other, getting on each others' nerves, learning together, etc. More than anything, I was an also ran, and I know that I think I would have felt better about myself, or maybe even did better at school, had I the chance to absorb some of the glow from the smart ones.
                    Aloha from Lavagal

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                    • #25
                      Re: Why are there no magnet schools in Hawaii?

                      Originally posted by lavagal View Post
                      I must also say that I think it's actually a better idea to integrate the kids, so the brighter ones inspire the others.
                      When I was in school the brighter kids in my class sure inspired the heck outta me, although perhaps not in the manner you envision...
                      Youth may be wasted on the young, but retirement is wasted on the old.
                      Live like you're dying, invest like you're immortal.
                      We grow old if we stop playing, but it's never too late to have a happy childhood.
                      Forget about who you were-- discover who you are.

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                      • #26
                        A word about G/T

                        Originally posted by lavagal View Post
                        GT and the special needs kids are funded from the same account. I must also say that I think it's actually a better idea to integrate the kids, so the brighter ones inspire the others. One of the nice things about my girls' school is that special needs kids are fully integrated. No one is set apart like a freak. ... I think I would have felt better about myself, or maybe even did better at school, had I the chance to absorb some of the glow from the smart ones.
                        That’s very generous of you to offer the talents of your kids to the more “average” ones as a means of inspiration. I’d like to share my own perspective.

                        I was one of those G/T kids back in elementary school. My kindergarten teacher first noticed I was different when it took me about 5 minutes to complete an SRA (Science Research Associates) assignment that normally took a student an hour to complete. There were several levels of about 100 exercises denoted by color, and I had reached the last color by mid-semester.

                        When I was subsequently shipped off to G/T, I was sad to leave my friends. But I enjoyed the program immensely, and it was the ultimate outlet for me to develop my creative talents. I still look back at it as the most important influence of my education. By the time I reached the 3rd grade, I was neglecting my regular schoolwork because compared to G/T, it was nightmarishly boring.

                        Because of this, administrators made the decision to remove me from G/T. The result was disastrous. A delinquent student in my third grade class would constantly harass me, and both of us would end up getting into trouble. By fourth grade, I had gotten into my first fistfight, and the rest was history. For many years, I would frequently receive notes to my parents that read “your child is one of the brightest kids in the class, but receives poor grades because he doesn’t apply himself.” As a result, I failed to get into a certain “elite” private school here in Hawai‘i, which had been one of my goals.

                        I hope G/T and its implementation has improved in our public schools since my experience. For awhile, I thought they had discontinued it, to make room for Special Ed. That early foundation did end up helping me in the long term, but the negative effects of the shocking disconnect also had a lasting effect on me.

                        We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

                        — U.S. President Bill Clinton
                        USA TODAY, page 2A
                        11 March 1993

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                        • #27
                          Re: Why are there no magnet schools in Hawaii?

                          I'm not saying my daughter's life as a GT student is all plumeria lei and haupia pie. She is tormented daily by some kids, both boys and girls, and it breaks my heart. Some of them pick on her because she's 8 and not 9 and 10 like they are. Some of them pick on her because she's driven, inquisitive, and asks questions of the teacher. I am always wanting to protect her, because she wears her heart on her sleeve and she is often preyed upon. Sometimes the only kids she has fun with are the special needs kids, because they
                          don't criticize her, they just like her because she's another kid, and a kid who smiles and has fun with them.

                          Sometimes Kid 1 picks on Kid 2 and I have to remind Kid 1 that she's making her sister feel the way some of the kids at school or summer fun make her feel. As a mom, I just hope both of my girls can come away from these experiences with a healthy sense of empathy and with an understanding that they can't change others and that they can't control everything in their lives. Live, learn and let go.
                          Aloha from Lavagal

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                          • #28
                            Re: Why are there no magnet schools in Hawaii?

                            Makes you wonder who are the parents of these little trolls who would pick on kids just cuz they are smart? Or different? Or dumb? Or whatever?

                            Perhaps it is that kids are just naturally mean? Perhaps it is that there is no such thing as bad children, only bad parents?
                            FutureNewsNetwork.com
                            Energy answers are already here.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Why are there no magnet schools in Hawaii?

                              Originally posted by lavagal View Post
                              From what I understand the GT and the special needs kids are funded from the same account. I must also say that I think it's actually a better idea to integrate the kids, so the brighter ones inspire the others.
                              That's what I already said about the funding.

                              You should visit the schools who have a high percentage of ESL students, town and country, many of whom come from really bad family situations as well. The....mmmm...smarter students inspire nothing in these kids. Teachers get frustrated because these kids can't understand what the lessons are and many tend to be disruptive. Wife told me one teacher just quit at the end of this last semester. Reason. Too many disruptive students and it's getting worse because the Principle has to divide these kids up equally. This was a male teacher too. No can handle.

                              If anything, the average and smarter students suffer for it. Many of these schools failed the Felix Decree because the ESL students don't have enough of a grasp on English to understand what it is they need to do. Many of their parents, locals as well, also have no interest whatsoever in their education. The school is just a free babysitter for them.

                              Sorry to say that. Just my observation and hearing what the wife says about some of the area schools since she's worked in them. She's also talked to the schools' admin about these very topics and hears their frustration at not being able to accomodate all the students equally. Same complaints about lack of funding and their hands being tied behind their backs by DOE "rules".

                              Now, if we heard an explaination of these shortcomings from a DOE official, he/she would just blow smoke up our collective butts and paint a rosy picture of a statewide education system succeeding in all districts under all the same rules and funding. Not. Like Scriv said, districts with a higher tax base have an edge. Out here, it's us parents who have to come up with more money out of our pockets to help our kids' teachers afford new books and class supplies. One can argue that all schools are this way, but you'd have to admit that families in the more affluent areas tend to have a bit more discretionary income than most of us do. For us, it's food off the table or that next tankful of gas so we can get to work.

                              BTW, to separate the "smart" kids from the slower ones is "not politically correct" as quoted from what the wife heard as an explaination to segregating kids of different academic levels.

                              Now, when I was your age and went to school.........
                              Actually, we did have segregation. There were classes that had only slower kids, then average, then the smarter ones. You know what? A lot of the "slower" kids have successful lives today. Many of the smart kids.........well, what can I say. Lets just say a lot of them can't afford to retire, which is coming up real quick.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Why are there no magnet schools in Hawaii?

                                Originally posted by TuNnL View Post
                                SRA (Science Research Associates) assignment that normally took a student an hour to complete. There were several levels of about 100 exercises denoted by color, and I had reached the last color by mid-semester.
                                Haha I remember those SRA things. If I recall correctly, they came in boxes and the edge of each sheet had a colored square. I liked the pastel colors. I also enjoyed touching the satin lamination.



                                Because of this, administrators made the decision to remove me from G/T. The result was disastrous.
                                How cruel To show a child a better life and then say, "Nah, you no can have."



                                Originally posted by lavagal View Post
                                She is tormented daily by some kids, both boys and girls, and it breaks my heart.
                                I'm sorry to hear Being sensitive (i.e. wearing your heart on your sleeve) is both a blessing and a curse. They say if your child has at least one good friend who values them for who they are, that it'll innoculate them against the long term effects of being picked on. *smile hopefully*



                                Originally posted by timkona View Post
                                Makes you wonder who are the parents of these little trolls who would pick on kids just cuz they are smart? Or different? Or dumb? Or whatever?

                                Perhaps it is that kids are just naturally mean? Perhaps it is that there is no such thing as bad children, only bad parents?
                                Children are naturally competitive; they compete for attention. Children are also very observant; they quickly spot differences and weaknesses in others. Left to their own devices, children are ruthless. It's society (mainly parents) who civilizes them.

                                It's depressingly easy to become a parent. Bad parents lack discipline and tend to have more babies. Of course out-breeding your opponents is a viable survival strategy.

                                "Been around the world and found
                                that only stupid people are breeding
                                the cretins cloning and feeding
                                and i don't even own a tv"

                                But, I think most parents are decent parents. Unfortunately they're struggling against increasingly difficult economic times. They're barely making ends meet, and there's little left over time and energy for the kids. Our population is growing and our country is getting poorer. America hit the jackpot by placing a last minute bet on WW2, but now the payday check is starting to run out.



                                Originally posted by Da Rolling Eye View Post
                                The....mmmm...smarter students inspire nothing in these kids.
                                "Slower" kids will only be inspired by the "smarter" kids if they believe they too can achieve the same success. If they don't think they can, they won't be motived to compete in a game that they'd end up losing. Better just to beat up the smart kids and change the game into something they can win. It's smart, in a way.



                                You know what? A lot of the "slower" kids have successful lives today. Many of the smart kids.........well, what can I say. Lets just say a lot of them can't afford to retire, which is coming up real quick.
                                There are many different kinds of intellegence. The "book smart" kind can be quite a liability. Success in life depends on slogging through boring grunt work, and "smart" people tend to get bored very easily. They also tend to over analyze things and sabotage themselves.

                                "Slow" or "smart", if you live beyond your means, you ain't gonna retire.
                                "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
                                "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
                                "
                                Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

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