Rail Transit

[Seeking Penance]

Re: Rail Transit

I don't have a dog in this fight, as I don't expect to be using rail at all and havn't been reading this thread, so my post my be old news, but:

Everybody want's a solution to the traffic problem, so it was easy to get a 'yes' vote win in the election, simply from the emotional aspect, no matter what the plans and costs are. Plus underhanded Mufi didn't lay it all out for us to know the fine print, keeping the reports away from us until after the election, another 'too' easy way to win at the ballot box.
Then after we voted, they pull this dirty fast one, by switching the route to the airport. If I was affected negatively and directly by this, I'd be even more outraged, and wouldn't blame those who are if they threw a huge fit at City Hall. It may be better to have it go thru the airport instead, but to pull this BS after people voted and have no more normal
input is pathetic. Then Mufi get's typically punkish (just after he's re-elected...) by saying Romy should go cry to his Mama, sloughing it all of on the Council. It's exactly this kind of crap by Mufi that I wouldn't vote for him if he was the last person on earth.

amen!!........................................peri od!!

[Seeking Penance]

Re: Rail Transit

Lynn Vasquez-Dela Cerna
P.S. You still can't change Aala Park to Hiram Fong Park.

agree!!!......................period!!

[Bobinator]

Re: Rail Transit

amen!!........................................peri od!!

Never in my life did I ever consider voting for Ann Kobayashi for anything. But I did, because of the rail B.S. from Mufi as was just described by Ron. Of course, she didn't win, but at least I have a license to complain because I voted.

[TuNnL]

Re: Rail Transit

underhanded Mufi didn't lay it all out for us to know the fine print, keeping the reports away from us until after the election, another 'too' easy way to win at the ballot box.

I don’t know what “reports” you are referring to, but I assume you mean the Draft EIS, which was in fact, released before the election.

Then after we voted, they pull this dirty fast one, by switching the route to the airport.

I’m assuming by “they” you are referring to City Council members Charles Djou and Todd Apo, who initiated the movement to switch the route back to the airport (which was the original plan in the first place). There is nothing “dirty” about this. City Council member Romy Cachola is the one who pulled a “dirty fast one” by forcing the City Council to adopt the Salt Lake route, which virtually none of the constituents in his district want. And since you are a rail opponent, Ron, you should realize that the harshest opponent of rail (Djou) on the city council is the one you are accusing of pulling a “dirty fast one,” so you really should educate yourself on the issues before you post this garbage.

[Ron Whitfield]

More garbage for ya!

The full report was doled out in pieces and only the first part was available to the council just before election day.

To say that changing the route after people voted and have no more say isn't dirty, is ludicris.

I don't oppose rail totally, just want a better proposal and $ accuracy.
As it is, it's going to be a boondoggle disaster. Mufi's folly.

Happy dumpster diving!

[helen]

Re: Rail Transit

The question on the ballot was never about the plan, the routes or the cost of the project. It was truely about if it was okay (or not) to include one kind of technology in the county's transit plan.

[Kaonohi]

Re: Rail Transit

I feel like the government insiders are scamming me again:
Allegations of huge payoffs to Mufi if he gets "steel on steel" rail.
(Hmmm, doesn't THAT sound familiar? re: Bishop Estate?)

Engineers voicing their opinions that "s on s" is NOT the best, nor most economical....

I just feel like it's just another Hawaii Snowjob, comin down the line.

As if: Nothing else (maglev, narrow gauge, etc) ha just never been considered. Maybe cause those folks didn't pay-off Mufi?

Kaonohi

[Composite 2992]

Re: Rail Transit

All of the other options were carefully studied for decades. Even maglev has been studied but it's unproven. The precision of the track required to allow the train to move smoothly is very tight. Clearance between the train and ground coils is about 10 millimeters. That's less than 1/2 inch.

While not impossible to achieve it's certainly not nearly as tolerant as a conventional steel wheel system.

With rubber tires you have a tremendous wear and maintenance problem. Steel wheels last much longer and have much less rolling resistance. Therefore lower cost and less energy needed to move the train. Rubber is also made from a petroleum product -- it contributes to our dependency on foreign oil.

The Council brought up the route change. Mufi had nothing to do with it. And the airport route makes much more sense.

The whole rail idea has been around for a very long time. More than a generation. To say that anything was last minute fails to take into account all the debate and delays that have taken place over the last several years.

As for allegations of corruption, if it can be proven, then it should be prosecuted. Otherwise, it's merely unsubstantiated rumors.

[Kaonohi]

Re: Rail Transit

All of the other options were carefully studied for decades. Even maglev has been studied but it's unproven. The precision of the track required to allow the train to move smoothly is very tight. Clearance between the train and ground coils is about 10 millimeters. That's less than 1/2 inch.

While not impossible to achieve it's certainly not nearly as tolerant as a conventional steel wheel system..

I lived next to a steel-on-steel system for a few years. It was over 100 feet away and recessed in a gulley to the degree the trains were not seen. The noise was extremely invasive. The gap after every length of rail makes a "clackety-clack" noise louder than the engine or even jet planes.

A steel-on-steel system has NO tolerance! The steel wheels on the lengths of steel track make extraordinary noise while going over the gaps in the rails.
The 10 millimeters of maglev (used worldwide now, and well proven) gives you silence. Blessed silense that we have come to love in these islands.

Steel wheels last much longer and have much less rolling resistance. Therefore lower cost and less energy needed to move the train.

But, at what cost?

Peace vs. Energy.

Mufi had nothing to do with it.

Mufi virtually said, "Do it my way or you get nothing!" He gave us no choice, the citizens had no input. I view Mufi as a bananna republic dictator.

The whole rail idea has been around for a very long time. More than a generation. To say that anything was last minute fails to take into account all the debate and delays that have taken place over the last several years.

So, nobody thought to include the citizens? Nobody thought to consult engineers?
Well, it's too late now. Mufi's sheep are being herded into the slaughterhouse. Here we vote for whomever has the most signs up and get not what we want, but what we deserve. Business as usual.

As for allegations of corruption, if it can be proven, then it should be prosecuted. Otherwise, it's merely unsubstantiated rumors.

Yeah, it's always just unsubstantiated rumors. Welcome to Hawaii.

You sound like a lawyer. Are you?
Do you work for the city?
I'll assume no answer is a 'yes.'

[joshuatree]

Re: Rail Transit

I lived next to a steel-on-steel system for a few years. It was over 100 feet away and recessed in a gulley to the degree the trains were not seen. The noise was extremely invasive. The gap after every length of rail makes a "clackety-clack" noise louder than the engine or even jet planes.

Which system is this may I ask? The issue of alluding to one steel system's experience as representative of all is oversimplifying. Different steel systems were built at different times. Steel on steel doesn't mean there isn't different designs or types involved. Would you say all cars are equal?

Low speed mag-lev is simply lacking a variety of manufacturers at this point. That would put us at the mercy of the manufacturer. With steel on steel, you can buy the control system from one manufacturer, rails by another, and cars from yet another. That helps build in cost control and flexibility.

[Composite 2992]

Re: Rail Transit

I saw a train operating in Kumamoto back in the 1960s and it was belching smoke and steam. It made a horrendous pounding noise as the drive pistons shuttled back and forth. As a kid, seeing that was way cool.

I'm going to guess that's not what we're going to have here.

Then I saw the bullet train running in Osaka a couple of years ago and it was nearly silent when it went through the station. Just a rush of air and a hum. That was it.

From my window overlooking the station across the street, the loudest noises were mopeds, trucks and buses going by. A conventional bus is a lot louder than any of the trains going through the station.

A Maglev system running at relatively low speeds can be very quiet. The noise generated by a vehicle cutting through the air becomes the greatest source of noise, and that's not a trivial thing if you listen to the cars rushing by on the freeway.

The Maglev option was examined and rejected because of its limited track record. Pun sort of intended. The cost is also a factor.

Having the track as part of the electric motor that drives the train can dramaticaly drive up the overall cost. In a steel-wheeled system, a track is a much more basic steel rail. With Maglev or any linear-induction system, the track is a complex assembly that must be built to very tight tolerances.

Everyone had years to let their opinions be heard and counted.

Citizens were allowed a great deal of input. The City Council, consisting of people chosen to represent the residents of each district, discussed the merits of all the systems at length. People should have called or written their council members to let them know their thoughts. Neighborhood boards discussed the matter, too, and forwarded their concerns to the City.

All media outlets covered it extensively, and there was a flood of comments fielded by newspapers, blogs and discussion forums. Special interest groups tried very hard and barely collected enough signatures from people who were against it. It was even put to popular vote last week.

After years of this it finally boiled down to a decision to go with it. Mufi might be a strong advocate but the City Council has the power to vote him down. It did with other mayors many times before but not this time. Apparently a growing number of people are beginning to see that something has to be done, and not just for today, but for the future of this city and beyond.

"You sound like a lawyer. Are you?"
Nope.

"Do you work for the city?"
Nope.

But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. :-)

I have nothing to personally gain from the construction of the system except that it gives us an option other than our cars to get us somewhere. My wife will probably use it a lot more than I will since I have to deal with a couple hundred pounds of equipment for work sometimes. But I used to commute with nothing more than a laptop and a lunchbox, and if it were running back then, I would have used it.

My own personal concern is energy efficiency, carbon footprint, renewable resources and how we're all going to help our kids and grandkids have a better world.

It would be ideal to have everyone work, shop and play at home. But jobs and commerce are where you find them. So mobility is essential to a healthy society and a strong economy. It always has been. This community has been searching for a way to move a lot of people quickly and reliably, independently of the mess on the streets and highways, and without having to add more vehicles onto our roads.

There comes a time when debate must end and action taken. Now is that time.

[sansei]

Re: Rail Transit

hi this is sansei and this morning i spoke with my sister who live's on the mainland and i asked her how's the steel on steel rail there and she said that it's great and it's electric and she also said that they had to vote for a magnetic levetation like the one's in japan similar to the bullet train and that passed and they also voted for the steel on steel on what other part of california that it could travel to only one place was passed by and so for now that their steel on steel rail will run the same place's it's been to so she said steel on steel would truly work here.

i thought to share this truth with everyone.


well thank's for your time

[tutusue]

Re: Rail Transit

[...]she said steel on steel would truly work here.[...]

Did your sister mention whether it's quiet or noisy?

[Seeking Penance]

Re: Rail Transit

Did your sister mention whether it's quiet or noisy?

and on what planet sansei?

[joshuatree]

Re: Rail Transit

Having the track as part of the electric motor that drives the train can dramaticaly drive up the overall cost. In a steel-wheeled system, a track is a much more basic steel rail. With Maglev or any linear-induction system, the track is a complex assembly that must be built to very tight tolerances.

Actually linear induction is on the table for the current steel on steel proposals. This is why I said there are so many designs and technology features within steel on steel though critics tend to just lump it under the stereotypical view on steam engine with the clackity clack noise.

One of the RFPs by Bombardier proposes steel on steel to support the weight of the train but a fourth rail (third is the power) uses linear induction to propel the train. There will be no electric motor noise since there is none to drive the train. So it's 1/2 maglev.