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  • Re: Rail Transit

    Rail is expensive, but compared to what?

    If spending taxes on government projects are a waste of taxpayer dollars, then why are my tax dollars being spent on schools on the neighbor islands? Why is it going toward paying for an airport on Upolu Point? Why should I help fund welfare cases living on the beach? I don't benefit from these projects so why should I care?

    It's a social cost. As Americans we all agreed to stand by one another. If that weren't true, why are people enlisting in the military to risk getting torn to shreds? It's because they're willing to stand up for the rest of us. And in return, we support them with our tax dollars to get them the equipment and munitions they need to do their job.

    So if you're going to declare rail a waste, then please stand and declare the entire military a waste, too. After all, the Marines aren't there in the kitchen helping to do the dishes, are they? So why would they deserve to get our money?

    Oahu is getting very crowded. There was a time not long ago when places like Kaena Point, Makapuu Point and Hanauma Bay were deserted. Pearl City was the boonies. Today Pearlridge is almost considered "town".

    The growing population requires an energy-efficient and space-efficient transportation solution. It won't be cheap. But the options aren't cheap, either. Cars can do it, but at what cost?

    There's the obvious cost to the environment. Then there's the cost of accidents, the resulting injuries and loss of productivity. Reduce the injury and death rate from ordinary commuting, and you're already saving a significant amount of money each year.

    Not everyone is able to afford to drive. And it'll only get worse. Last year the IRA increased the writeoff from 50.5 cents to 58.5 cents per mile. Almost a 16% increase. A 30-mile round-trip commute costs the average driver more than $17 a day. That's not a theory, that's real life. Right now. For someone making minimum wage, that could be 30% of that day's pay spent just to get to work! How does that make any sense at all? People talk about car pooling but that's often not practical and generally not practiced.

    In 10 years expect the price of gas to be astronomical by today's standards. As this island gets even more crowded in the near future, efficient mass transit will not be optional. And you can't build it then. These need to be built starting right now. Today. Because tomorrow is too late.

    Comment


    • Re: Rail Transit

      Originally posted by Composite 2992 View Post
      It's going toward a project that increases the size of the workforce. It's hundreds of thousands of people giving up a tiny amount of their income to help get several hundred or a few thousand others a living wage.
      The question is, where would that money have gone if it wasn't taxed? How can you say that wouldn't have translated into several hundred jobs anyway? Just because it's hard to quantify the impact of the small amounts doesn't mean there wasn't an impact. It seems to me that the jobs benefit is being conjured out of nothing.

      Comment


      • Re: Rail Transit

        Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
        The question is, where would that money have gone if it wasn't taxed? How can you say that wouldn't have translated into several hundred jobs anyway? Just because it's hard to quantify the impact of the small amounts doesn't mean there wasn't an impact. It seems to me that the jobs benefit is being conjured out of nothing.
        It's a good question but here's some food for thought. How much benefit did Bush's $300 tax rebate stimulus do? Did it spark an economic rebound?

        The rail tax is 0.5%. I'll double it to 1% for my sample. So someone living on Oahu will need to spend $30,000 in goods and/or services in a year to equate to that $300 which seemed to have done so little under Bush's rebate plan. How many spend $30k net pay a year? If we went back to 0.5%, it means one needs to spend $60k a year. How many of us do that? Yes, I know there are some but I really doubt the majority of us spend $60k net pay a year.

        By pooling our individual 0.5% little impacts into one massive project, we are also eligible to attract up to $1.4 billion from the feds per the DEIS and now that we have chosen the airport route. Granted, this is not a done deal yet but the rail project won't fly without this fed contribution. So where else can individual, separate 0.5% impacts be able to attract up to $1.4 billion?

        What is your thought on massive public works like the Hoover Dam during the Great Depression? I'm sure taxpayers in New York never got to benefit from it directly. But it did generate thousands of jobs and provided an infrastructure that benefits the American Southwest to this very day.

        Comment


        • Re: Rail Transit

          Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
          What is your thought on massive public works like the Hoover Dam during the Great Depression? I'm sure taxpayers in New York never got to benefit from it directly. But it did generate thousands of jobs and provided an infrastructure that benefits the American Southwest to this very day.
          Based on the power and water it creates and how it feeds the country, I'd say it's a great success.

          As for the jobs it created in building it? Well, that benefit has long disappeared. I'm sure it was good to those who worked on it. That was a very nasty time.

          I couldn't find in a quick Google how the dam was financed. It's possible the government just extended a loan and it re-payed itself from the power and the water. If our rail system could do the same, it would have very little opposition.

          Comment


          • Re: Rail Transit

            Originally posted by helen View Post
            Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
            But the fact remains, a vote was taken for this project and it passed.
            Actually no, there was never a vote taken for this project. What was voted on by the citizens are: ...A Honolulu county wide vote on allowing the use of rail as means of mass transit for this county.
            Sorry to call you on this one, helen, but I did vote in the last election and I distinctly remember that Honolulu citizens DID vote on this specific project. From the Star-Bulletin:

            In a unanimous vote yesterday, the City Council approved a ballot question that would ask voters, “Shall the powers, duties, and functions of the city, through its director of transportation services, include establishment of a steel wheel on steel rail transit system?”

            So it was this train voters were casting their ballots for or against. Because regardless of the route, there is only one steel-on-steel rail project on the table.

            We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

            — U.S. President Bill Clinton
            USA TODAY, page 2A
            11 March 1993

            Comment


            • Re: Rail Transit

              Seven months later, you want call her out? The wheels seem to grind slowly, but exceedingly fine.

              The measure said "a steel wheel on steel rail transit system", not THIS steel wheel on steel rail system. It could apply to support for the expansion of the Ewa Train with equal validity. We didn't vote on any other system specifics, so there's no reason to pretend a specific transit system has been chosen or approved by voters.
              May I always be found beneath your contempt.

              Comment


              • Re: Rail Transit

                Originally posted by salmoned View Post
                The measure said "a steel wheel on steel rail transit system", not THIS steel wheel on steel rail system. It could apply to support for the expansion of the Ewa Train with equal validity. We didn't vote on any other system specifics, so there's no reason to pretend a specific transit system has been chosen or approved by voters.
                Yep, that's the choice we were given: steel on steel railway or NOTHING!

                "Shall the powers, duties, and functions of the city, through its director of transportation services, include establishment of a steel wheel on steel rail transit system?"

                That's a choice? A choice would include Mag-Lev, Rubber on Concrete and/or other types of rail, if developed, or would not specify Mufi's private dictatorial pork. So how did we respond?

                146,764 Votes for rail transit - almost 53%
                132,268 Votes against rail transit - about 47%

                From the Advertiser's report:
                "Hannemann last night attempted to reach out to the nearly half of the voters who opposed the project.
                "All I ask (is) for those who still may disagree with it is let's find ways in which you can support this effort," he said. "The feeling has been that the people decide and the people have spoken."
                Vocal rail critic Cliff Slater of Stop Rail Now said the 47 percent who voted against rail indicates there is still strong opposition to the plan.
                "When you've got that many against you, that's hardly an indication of community consensus for rail," Slater said."

                How about a choice on the ballot that says:
                "Shall the powers, duties, and functions of the city, through its dictator of choice, include establishment of a means to protect the populace against death by unspecified means by establishing a system of universal incarceration?"

                Rail via 'my way or the highway' vs. no traffic solution.

                Life via imposed incarceration or death.

                Perhaps it's an extreme comparison. No, it is an extreme comparison.
                Sometimes extremes are necessary to wake people.

                Let's face it, Honolulu: We've been RAILROADED!

                AKA: Government of the special interests, by the special interests and for the special interests.

                I'd bet that if we were given latitude in the type of rail, support would have been over 90%.
                Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
                ~ ~
                Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
                Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
                Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

                Comment


                • Re: Rail Transit

                  Gotta love how the Mufster's propaganda machine operates. The mayor is Midweek's latest coverboy. Reason? To trumpet his 2009 Distinguished Citizen award from the local Boy Scouts council. A pure P.R. puff piece, if you ask me.

                  http://www.midweek.com/content/story...ufi_hannemann/

                  Hmmm, no mention of wife Gail being the CEO of the Hawaii Girl Scouts Council, is there? You don't think that had anything to do with this award? No, perish the thought!!!!

                  The Mufster will need all the positive publicity he can get, in the midst of a reported $500 million shortfall in tax collection for the rail project.

                  http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/ar...ll++500M+short

                  http://www.kitv.com/mostpopular/20484006/detail.html

                  And if the mayor can't get the feds or the state to cover the gap, he's going to be forced to raise taxes on Oahu,... again. If that happens, he can forget about the governorship in 2010. No amount of P.R. flattery from his "friends" in the media and/or political muckraking against his rivals will ever get Honolulu voters to forgive him in time for the next election.
                  This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Rail Transit

                    Did anyone see Mufi's informercial? Was it spooktacular?

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                    • Re: Rail Transit

                      I guess we can put this issue as ainokea.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Rail Transit

                        It's a done deal. Mufi will ram it down our throats and run off to the Gov's race, while pointing finger at everyone else as it turns into the big pile it's doomed for.
                        https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

                        Comment


                        • Re: Rail Transit

                          I made a prediction over a year ago that this project won't get off the ground. So far, current circumstances seem to be leading up to this. Everyone is looking at the economy the way they've been their whole lives, not realizing that the dollar will collapse from right under them. This will end up being a ghost project, just like the Natatorium, except the repercussions will be worse, because we couldn't afford the rail project to begin with, and soon, we'll have a dollar with less than half its purchasing power. People are going to be more concerned about getting a bite to eat than catching a ride to a job they've been laid off from.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Rail Transit

                            hi,imoht.i disagree is since mostly everyone voted for rail,i have the most faith that the rail project will become reality and most of who voted for rail,will be delighted.

                            i for one even though rail wont be in my area,it'll be nice for folk's who live on the other sid of the island will be delighted.

                            well thank's for your time=O)

                            Comment


                            • Re: Rail Transit

                              Originally posted by Bobinator View Post
                              People are going to be more concerned about getting a bite to eat than catching a ride to a job they've been laid off from.
                              Maybe they can offer free onboard meals and a sleeper car...
                              https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

                              Comment


                              • Re: Rail Transit

                                * bump *

                                So check out this story on CNN.com :

                                Obama announces $8 billion investment in high-speed train system
                                January 28, 2010 8:58 p.m. EST

                                Washington (CNN) -- President Obama announced Thursday that the federal government will spend $8 billion developing a nationwide high-speed train system -- an investment the White House says is needed to help spur long-term economic growth.
                                The investment, to be made through a series of state grants, will be funded through the government's $862 billion economic stimulus package.
                                Overall, projects and planning involving the rail corridors will take place in 31 states, according to a White House statement.
                                (...)
                                More than 30 rail manufacturers have agreed to establish or expand U.S. operations if they are hired to work on the high-speed rail network, the administration said.
                                The president first mentioned the program in his State of the Union speech Wednesday night. The administration initially released an outline for a national high-speed rail network last April.
                                Each of the corridors identified by the administration last year are between 100 and 600 miles long.
                                (...)
                                Train corridors in the program include:

                                -- San Diego-Los Angeles-San Luis Obispo in California

                                -- Oakland-Sacramento in California

                                -- Portland-Eugene in Oregon

                                -- Seattle-Portland in Washington and Oregon

                                -- Chicago-St. Louis in Illinois and Missouri

                                -- St. Louis-Kansas City in Missouri

                                -- Minneapolis/St. Paul-Madison in Minnesota and Wisconsin

                                -- Madison-Milwaukee in Wisconsin

                                -- Milwaukee-Chicago in Wisconsin and Illinois

                                -- Cleveland-Columbus-Cincinnati in Ohio

                                -- Detroit/Pontiac-Chicago in Michigan, Indiana and Illinois

                                -- Tampa-Orlando in Florida

                                -- Raleigh-Charlotte in North Carolina

                                -- Washington-Richmond in the District of Columbia and Virginia

                                -- Raleigh-Richmond in North Carolina and Virginia

                                -- New York City-Albany-Buffalo in New York

                                -- New York City-Montreal in New York and Quebec, Canada.

                                -- Boston-New York-Washington in Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, and the District of Columbia

                                -- Brunswick-Portland in Maine

                                -- Philadelphia-Harrisburg-Pittsburgh in Pennsylvania

                                -- Springfield-East Northfield in Massachusetts

                                -- New Haven-Springfield in Connecticut and Massachusetts




                                Among other things, notice that none of those federal $8 billion dollars are planned for Hawaii.
                                .
                                .

                                That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

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