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  • #91
    Re: Ban New Years fireworks?

    I am getting tired of this conversation - and, no, I don't see any problem with eating dogs either, or with Filipino style chicken fighting for that matter. What I am tired of though is the idea that just because some people happen to be tired of something we should make everyuone else stop doing it. There have been fireworks in Hawaii since long before statehood and I am willing to bet there will be fireworks in Hawaii for a long time to come - as I said, if some want to limit it in the commercial districts and in Waikiki - fine, but stop with the zero tolerance, banned everywhere crap - nobody is being assaulted and I see little or no danger - if you are concerned about danger why don't you ban surfing, rock climbing, and bungi jumping. I don't find the tradition either tired or hurtful.

    And, just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong or bad!

    I don't mean to be short - I just think there should be some way to find a middle ground - I do not now, nor will I ever see the point in these zero tolerance, demonzation of things some of us don't happen to agree with.

    And, that's all I have to say about that.

    Paul

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    • #92
      Re: Ban New Years fireworks?

      Originally posted by Paul Valenti View Post
      I am getting tired of this conversation -
      That's one of the great things about HT. You are not forced to be here. And, you are not forced to read a thread that you are tired of. (Guess that is actually two great things about HT.)
      Now run along and play, but don’t get into trouble.

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      • #93
        Re: Ban New Years fireworks?

        Hey - no worries - I liked the discussion, it's just that I think this partiuclar horse is dead - and anyway, all we can do is say what we think and then go with whatever develops. Thanks for the participation.

        Paul

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        • #94
          Re: Ban New Years fireworks?

          Originally posted by Paul Valenti View Post
          [...]I still have fond memories, strong lungs and a stubborn streak.[...]
          In none of your posts in this thread have I read any acknowledgement or compassion for the more than 154,000 people in Hawaii with lung disease. That number is cited in a PSA for the American Lung Assoc. of Hawaii's upcoming "Breathe Concert" and is more than the entire population of Maui.
          Originally posted by Paul Valenti View Post
          I am getting tired of this conversation - [...]
          Paul, with all due respect, you are here...by choice. You continue to read this thread...by choice. If you are truly tired of this conversation, well, the next step is pretty clear. Again, that's your choice.
          (ETA: I was composing this reply while Paul was posting his reply above.)
          [...]What I am tired of though is the idea that just because some people happen to be tired of something we should make everyuone else stop doing it.
          And, for some of us the issue is HEALTH. For some reason you choose not to acknowledge that. Out of curiosity...why?
          I don't mean to be short - I just think there should be some way to find a middle ground [...]
          I don't think you're being 'short'. Selfish, yes, but not short. And, I agree that there could and should be a compromise, not an outright ban. I love watching fireworks from the safety of my hale but I don't love that so many people have to suffer because of them.
          Last edited by tutusue; January 15, 2009, 09:34 AM.

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          • #95
            Re: Ban New Years fireworks?

            Ok - So many things to say:

            Number one - AS I SAID - I have no problem with some sort of compromise that DOES NOT impose a blanket ban on everyone everywhere. I have plenty of sympathy for people with lung problems - I grew up asthmatic in Hawaii - but, again, AS I SAID - I am opposed to any outright ban on all fireworks everywhere - period.

            I said I was tired of the conversation only because, AS I SAID - the horse is dead - I mean, how much is there to say about this? One either thinks there should be a ban, doesn't think there should be a ban or thinks, as I do, that there is a middle ground someplace.

            A lot of this is like the Chicken Fighting issue - I am opposed to the mainland style of Chicken Fighting because I think the fowl take too long to die and it ends being brutal rather than exciting, but with the Filipino method, the chickens are dead in seconds. But, a lot of people object on moral grounds - I mean, they are Chickens for Christ sake! People object because it is killing - but we are humans - we kill - witness Gaza, abortions, murder in New Orleans, and the Iraq War - But, in the end, all we can do is say what we think and I feel that saying it over and over again doesn't really serve a purpose. So, in regard to Fireworks - I am not selfish, I think we can have our cake and eat it too - some kind of controls on where peopel use them is certainly acceptable - an outright ban is not.

            Thanks for your time

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            • #96
              Re: Ban New Years fireworks?

              If the cops can't/won't crack down of the few these day's that are blowing off illegals, how will they manage any other controls?
              https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

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              • #97
                Re: Ban New Years fireworks?

                I don't think the cops are the answer to begin with - pot and chicken fighting are illegal but that hasn't seemed to slow anyone down. The answer is some kind of policy that has the support of most people - then, and only then - will the cops have the community support necessary to enforce what everyone sees as a reasonable law. I work with homeless people everyday here on the mainland and I can tell you right now that if everyone thinks the rules are wrong no one will support police enforcement - everyday I see instances of laws being broken with impunity because no one thinks the laws are right or justifiable. For example, some zealots in this state have passed a rule that prohibits smoking within 25 feet of a bus stop - how do you think that is working out? Law enforcenment only works whenthe vast majority agree withthe law - otherwise, it is an exercise in either repression or futility.

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                • #98
                  Re: Ban New Years fireworks?

                  Originally posted by Paul Valenti View Post
                  [...]So, in regard to Fireworks - I am not selfish, I think we can have our cake and eat it too - some kind of controls on where peopel use them is certainly acceptable - an outright ban is not.[...]
                  The word 'selfish' was used to note your lack of compassion and acknowledgement for the thousands suffering with lung problems. Your posts were all about...you. And the fact that you suffered from asthma as a child and still didn't acknowledge those with health issues speaks volumes. The word was not used in relationship to the fireworks issue itself.

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                  • #99
                    Re: Ban New Years fireworks?

                    Thanks for that - and you're particular concerns aren't selfish because they are NOT all about you?

                    Folks like you really crack me up! The question was do I agree with banning fireworks or not - I - yes ME - don't agree - that was the answer to that question.

                    Perhaps you should get off the moral high horse - no one said we shouldn't have compassion for those with health problems, but theirs are not the only concerns here.

                    ONE MORE TIME - I said that I oppose an outright ban on fireowrks everywhere on the Island - I am fine with some sort of compromise that works for the vast bulk of the population - but, just because some people have health problems DOES NOT mean that we all have to stop living. It's nice to know that there are still self-righteous people like you around - what would we do for entertainment without you? But, hey, I know that when solid argument or compromise fails ad homien is always a good fallback position, isn't it?

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                    • Re: Ban New Years fireworks?

                      Originally posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
                      If the cops can't/won't crack down of the few these day's that are blowing off illegals, how will they manage any other controls?
                      I’d like to get back to this simple yet important point that Ron is making. If it were as easy as passing a law, fireworks would have ceased to have been a problem years ago. A law is only as good as HPD’s ability to enforce it. If they lack the will or the resources to enforce current laws which specifically ban aerial fireworks and greatly limit the amount of firecrackers you can pop (with city permit documentation required), why would a total ban improve the situation?

                      We all know there are health concerns. Hell, there are health concerns with vog, and Lord knows that occurs much more often then fireworks, not to mention being more toxic. The question is: what is the most effective solution?

                      We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

                      — U.S. President Bill Clinton
                      USA TODAY, page 2A
                      11 March 1993

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                      • Re: Ban New Years fireworks?

                        Originally posted by Paul Valenti View Post
                        Law enforcenment only works whenthe vast majority agree withthe law - otherwise, it is an exercise in either repression or futility.
                        The vast majority think that traffic laws are reasonable and justified, but an incredible amount who believe in the laws still do whatever they want, no matter how dangerous.

                        The drugs and gambling, whatever, can be handled by a police force that really wishes to make an impact without much trouble. There is a lot less pot activity these day's, and not for lack of desire on users.
                        The majority of most communitys supports eliminating the problems of illegal fireworks.
                        https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

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                        • Re: Ban New Years fireworks?

                          Very good point - and that was really all I was saying - a fair law of the sort that recognizes the needs, and (selfish) desires of one group does not necessarily have to exclude or ignore the needs or concerns of another - compromise and an effort to find a solution is what is needed - not a lot of ad homine attacks about my selfishness or their health problems - I am sorry people have health problems, I have had my own, but that doesn't mean I have the right to inflict the limitations in my life on everyone else And, if tutusue is really that concerned about the quality of the air two or three times a year - he/she should probably not drive - But, I'll bet he or she does drive.

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                          • Re: Ban New Years fireworks?

                            The majority of the community? How do you know that? I'll bet that if you polled all the folks in the back of the valleys, as well as the folks on the windward side and the North Shore you would find that is not the case. And, I think that would be a hard case to make considering the number of people who participate every year. Once again - there should be room for everyone.

                            And, you are right, there is a lot less pot activity these days - maybe that's why Honolulu has become the ice capitol of the world - that approach has worked well hasn't it?

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                            • Re: Ban New Years fireworks?

                              Hey guys - this has been fun, but I have to get back to work - maybe we can do this again in the future. Ciao

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                              • Re: Ban New Years fireworks?

                                Originally posted by Paul Valenti View Post
                                just because some people have health problems DOES NOT mean that we all have to stop living.
                                Don't stop living, just stop breaking the law.
                                https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

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