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  • Re: Rail Transit

    Originally posted by helen View Post
    Up to now I can understand your view against raising taxes for rail transit since in eariler posts you do not want to ride the rail or other mass transit, you would rather drive. However we do have a traffic congestion problem that needs to be addressed. Since none of us wants to move away and this problem is going to get worse as more people stay something needs to be done.
    Rail -- Do we need it? Can we afford it? Can we maintain it? No to all 3. Especially the "afford it" part.

    People bitch and moan all the time about sitting in traffic now. Are they all using TheBus as is coming in from Mililani, Ewa Beach and Waianae? Many are not. Yet they bitch and moan but still choose their car over mass transit we now have. Why is that?

    I am in favor of adding more busses just by using the sources of income the city currently have (the tax surcharge not being counted at this time). It's a matter of prioritizing, just like what we do in our own lives. If the city wants to prioritize transportation then something has to be cut, like parks for example. Work within the budget they already have. Not ask for more money from the taxpayers.

    Originally posted by helen View Post
    Instead of rail would more roads being built be the answer to this problem? Even doing that it is going to cost money to do and one needs to raise taxes to get that done. Would you rather see those monies going to build more roads?
    You don't have to raise taxes. Build a toll road and charge users who use it a fee. Others who don't want to use the toll road can use the present system. Allow the bus to use the toll road.

    The city should also look into other options like privately run jitney van service that deliever passengers door to door, seated down.



    Originally posted by helen View Post
    It might be something that the Neighbor Islands might do with their share of the transit GET if they decided mass transit is not what they want.
    The neighbor islands are not getting any share of the GE Tax surchage, the increase part of the tax that only goes to Honolulu/Oahu transit. They still have to pay for it in many cases but don't benefit at all from it. The respective county councils on the neighbor islands turned down the tax authorization that was granted to them in Act 247 in 2005. Only Honolulu approved the tax, yet the neighbor islands may still have to pay for it. Unfair for them. It is a dedicated "rail" tax.


    Originally posted by helen View Post
    As far as Oahu is concerned, right now in this moment in time no one has won and it won't be until an operational system is in place. Right now everything is in the planning stages.
    Rail supporters have won. They have the tax. They have the transit approval from the city council. The taxpayers will lose personal dollars to more taxes starting January 1. Opponents have definitely lost already because we will be paying a tax for something we don't want. It is a dedicated rail tax. The rest of the GE Tax that is not part of the surcharge is allocated to the state general fund, where through the normal legislative process, allocations are made to various state projects.

    Rail won. Taxpayers are losing. Property owners and residents next.

    Originally posted by helen View Post
    And by the way an successful mass transit system does benfit you too. The more people who take it, the less people they are on the road.
    The secret is in the word "success". Census data show that only 8.3% of Honolulu's population use public transit. Rail will not alleviate traffic unless governmnet comes up with legislation to force us out of our vehicles.

    There is no guarantee that rail will be a success. What it will be is an endless pit where tax money will constantly be flushed down into a very, very deep financial abyss.

    If you build more roads, more people will use those.


    General Excise Surcharge Will Hurt Hawaii's Economy
    Last edited by mel; December 26, 2006, 01:06 PM. Reason: added link
    I'm still here. Are you?

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    • Re: Rail Transit

      Originally posted by mel View Post
      People bitch and moan all the time about sitting in traffic now. Are they all using TheBus as is coming in from Mililani, Ewa Beach and Waianae? Many are not. Yet they bitch and moan but still choose their car over mass transit we now have. Why is that?
      Why don't more people take the bus now?

      Answer: try taking the bus from Ewa Beach to downtown and you'll see why. Because the bus is stuck in the same insane traffic as everyone else. Keep in mind that the right bus won't come to the bus stop all that frequently. If you miss one, you could end up waiting another 30 minutes for the next one. Imagine spending 4 hours a day just getting to and from work and it becomes painfully apparent that just adding more roads isn't a good long-term solution.

      I was able to ride a bike the same distance in the same time it took ride the bus in all that traffic.

      We need to move more people, not just cars, and in a time-efficient manner. And if it takes as much time (or less time) to go via mass transit as it does via car, more will make the switch. Especially if it saves them money. The cheapest parking I used to find in town was $4/day. Plus gas (about a gallon a day). Plus other operational costs of a car ($16/day to pay off a $25,000 car loan at $500/month). Add insurance and maintenance. More than $22/day to drive. Those are real costs. The increased GE tax increase is insignificant compared to that.

      What would a rail pass cost? $30 a month? $40 a month? That's less than what it truly costs to operate a car for two days.

      Check out http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/20...car-ownership/ for more information. It'll open your eyes. Cars are convenient but expensive.

      As for what we did to help alleviate our contribution to some of our community's problems: we got a hybrid car to cut gas usage by half.

      I'd carpool with my wife, which brought down the expense by yet another half. And in the days when my work schedule was unpredictable, she would catch the bus both ways.

      Nowdays I work at home. If I need to go to the bank I walk a 2-mile round trip instead of jumping into the car.

      And I developed a way for the co-owners of our company to transmit most of their files via FTP instead of hand-delivering materials back-and-forth between different parts of the island. That's three cars off the road. If we do drive it's mostly during the off-peak hours.

      There are some of us who are doing whatever we can to help alleviate traffic. To say that those who complain about traffic won't take mass transit isn't true. When the time comes, I'll certainly use a rail transit system whenever possible.

      A lot more people should take a closer look at their own contributions to these problems and consider what they could personally do to solve them. Not everyone has to. But it would certainly make our islands a better place if a lot more did.

      Comment


      • Re: Rail Transit

        Originally posted by Composite 2992 View Post
        The cheapest parking I used to find in town was $4/day. Plus gas (about a gallon a day). Plus other operational costs of a car ($16/day to pay off a $25,000 car loan at $500/month). Add insurance and maintenance. More than $22/day to drive. Those are real costs. The increased GE tax increase is insignificant compared to that.
        Those operational costs for using your own vehicle are made by choice. The tax is being forced upon us through law. Big difference there. People can choose to cut costs where they please, but if the cost of using a car is worth the convenience, then people will continue using cars as they are now. Personal transport and convenience is worth the price to many.


        General Excise Surcharge Will Hurt Hawaii's Economy
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        • Re: Rail Transit

          Originally posted by mel View Post
          I am in favor of adding more busses just by using the sources of income the city currently have (the tax surcharge not being counted at this time). It's a matter of prioritizing, just like what we do in our own lives. If the city wants to prioritize transportation then something has to be cut, like parks for example. Work within the budget they already have. Not ask for more money from the taxpayers.


          There is no guarantee that rail will be a success. What it will be is an endless pit where tax money will constantly be flushed down into a very, very deep financial abyss.

          If you build more roads, more people will use those.
          The council voted for a fixed guideway. So it could be a dedicated elevated roadway for only buses. Do you object to that?

          You are right, there is no guarantee that rail will be a success. There is also no guarantee that more roads, a tollway, or more buses will work either. Rail was voted down several times in the past, more roads were built. Did that really work? Not really, since we are dealing with the same congestion problem. BRT was tried and it was a failure. Funny how you keep insisting on items that have been given opportunities to prove themselves and have shown only limited success at best.

          If you build more roads, more people will use those? Hmm...yet you don't think if you build a rail, people won't use it huh?

          Originally posted by helen View Post
          Up to now I can understand your view against raising taxes for rail transit since in eariler posts you do not want to ride the rail or other mass transit, you would rather drive. However we do have a traffic congestion problem that needs to be addressed. Since none of us wants to move away and this problem is going to get worse as more people stay something needs to be done.

          Instead of rail would more roads being built be the answer to this problem? Even doing that it is going to cost money to do and one needs to raise taxes to get that done. Would you rather see those monies going to build more roads? It might be something that the Neighbor Islands might do with their share of the transit GET if they decided mass transit is not what they want.

          As far as Oahu is concerned, right now in this moment in time no one has won and it won't be until an operational system is in place. Right now everything is in the planning stages.

          And by the way an successful mass transit system does benfit you too. The more people who take it, the less people they are on the road.
          Right before last Friday's council vote, that was the huge debate. That roads would solve the congestion instead of rail. But that argument is so loaded. New roads will only provide congestion relief until the population grows and more people buy more cars. That's been the game plan for the last 30 years, more roads. But at what point do you say, enough is enough. This is an island with finite land. At what point do you say there is just no more land for roads? I guess a double decker road? A triple decker? All the anti-rail folks paint this beautiful picture that a privately funded tollway will solve our problems. What they don't tell you is the details, and the devil's in the details. They love to use Tampa's Tollway as the perfect example, ignoring so many details such as the cost of living is cheaper there and it's only been in operation for at most a year. They don't tell you tollways that fail like the 91 tollway in California, a place that has cost of living closer to ours and the fact that it's been in operation since 1996 with about 10 years worth of data to look over.

          Originally posted by mel View Post
          Those operational costs for using your own vehicle are made by choice. The tax is being forced upon us through law. Big difference there. People can choose to cut costs where they please, but if the cost of using a car is worth the convenience, then people will continue using cars as they are now. Personal transport and convenience is worth the price to many.
          It's not a choice Mel when there isn't an adequate form of public transportation to use if one did not want a car. Car users like you have been forcing this lifestyle upon others for a very long time.

          If the tax increase is such a burden, you can choose to cut your consumption since your logic is that all of us choose to use cars.

          Comment


          • Re: Rail Transit

            Originally posted by mel View Post
            Yet they bitch and moan but still choose their car over mass transit we now have. Why is that?
            'Cause buses suck?

            I can't really speak for The Bus since I only rode it once, though it seems pretty similar to Portland's system. But in Portland the same trip I take every day for about 25 minutes each way would've cost about 45 minutes on a bus. It's also subject to the same traffic woes as all the cars, as others have mentioned. On the totally separate lines here (on highway right of ways), you can happily sit on the train during the middle of rush hour and watch the gridlocked cars fly by at 60mph.

            A full block-sized train can carry the same number of people as about 4 buses. When things inevitably start moving more towards more renewable power sources, electric trains will be a much better long term choice than buses as well.

            A fixed-route bus with a separate track could also answer these concerns, but why go for some sort of exotic, probably more expensive, system than to just go for the same light rail cars and tracks as many other cities are now installing (and helping with their affordability)?

            I guess I'm just flinging around some wet underwear here though... So I'll stop...

            Comment


            • Re: Rail Transit

              composite, you don't have to quote statistics to prove to me that traffic is bad and getting much worse. I am among the vast majority of people who own a car and drive to get where I want to go. But as bad as traffic is, it's still a hell of alot more convenient than the rail will be or the bus currently is.

              The proposed rail route will not help me get to work. The proposed rail route will not help me get to the places I often go. The bus is inefficient compared to owning a car. I am an example of the vast majority of Oahu citizens.

              I am not against mass transit. I do occasionally ride the bus when it's convenient.

              However, I am against paying 5.5 billion dollars for something that I am sure will not significantly help alleviate traffic congestion when that money could be put to much better use on cheaper alternatives that will help both mass transit AND car owners such as myself. The elevated contra-flow solution combined with dedicated elevated bus lanes in place of rail is a small fraction of the cost and would be more effective at helping both mass transit users AND car owners. A tunnel or bridge over/under Pearl Harbor would help ease traffic tremendously, making it better for bus riders AND car owners.

              5.5B for rail is a colossal waste when there are so many better options.

              Comment


              • Re: Rail Transit

                Because of the disaster that happened in Boston I dont think a underground tunnel will be easily approved in any city until facts and figures are researched better. It could be a ecological disaster digging holes into Pearl Harbor and imagine if another quake were to hit how many people could be trapped not to mention people like me who would avoid it because I'm claustrophobic.

                You keep saying there are "better options", but I've yet to see either Mel or Mapen list one.

                I'm actually surprised Mel who is so against taxes would support paying a toll to drive on a road every single day, talk about being taxed!!!

                There are some bridges on the mainland that were completed 40 years ago and supposedly back then after 20-25 years a toll would be REMOVED, yet why are people still paying to drive on these bridges and roads? I guess someone has to pay for the upkeep of these roads/bridges.

                KalihiBoy

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                • Re: Rail Transit

                  Phoenix is another major city in the midst of building a major rail transit and here shows they are on BUDGET as well as on TIME:

                  http://www.valleymetro.org/METRO_igh...dule/index.htm

                  Perhaps Mufi could take a trip to view the construction while in progress, this
                  rail transit in Phoenix will eventually be nearly 60 miles and will finally
                  finish in 2025 if all measures and propositions are passed.

                  KalihiBoy

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                  • Re: Rail Transit

                    I really don't think putting automobiles on the elevated section is a good idea. For instance you will need on-ramps and off-ramps to be useful. If you kept it to either the rail or bus it should be all right since people would be getting off and on via the stations.

                    Of course it might be useful to have an midway place or two for rail and/or buses to enter and exit in case of equipment malfunction.

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                    • Re: Rail Transit

                      Originally posted by Composite 2992 View Post
                      The issue of neighbor islanders paying for a rail transit system they'll never use is not unlike people on Oahu paying taxes that pay for roads and bridges on the neighbor islands that they'll never use. It comes with being part of a state.
                      That is totally inaccurate. As far as I understand, the .5% GET increase is for Oahu rail only. It won't benefit anyone except Oahu residents. But everyone statewide will have to pay the .5%.
                      Check out my blog on Kona issues :
                      The Kona Blog

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                      • Re: Rail Transit

                        Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                        The council voted for a fixed guideway. So it could be a dedicated elevated roadway for only buses. Do you object to that?
                        Perhaps busses, but the mayor is dead set on rail. All the pro-transit testimony I heard at one recent council meeting was for rail, not a busway... nor toll road.

                        Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                        If you build more roads, more people will use those? Hmm...yet you don't think if you build a rail, people won't use it huh?
                        The odds are greater that more roads built, the more motorists will use them. Public transit is currently used by only 8.3% of the population. Are we spending $6 billion for only 8.3% of the commuting public?


                        Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                        It's not a choice Mel when there isn't an adequate form of public transportation to use if one did not want a car. Car users like you have been forcing this lifestyle upon others for a very long time.

                        If the tax increase is such a burden, you can choose to cut your consumption since your logic is that all of us choose to use cars.
                        So you are calling the award winning Bus system inadequate? I certainly haven't been forcing you to drive. You have the option like the rest of the 8.3% of the people to use public transit now... TheBus. It may be inadequate, but it is already there. It is so funny that rail supporters do not support the transit we have now by actually using that transit. If every rail supporter from Waianae, Ewa Beach, and Mililani used TheBus today on a regular basis, a significant portion of gridlock may be cut.

                        But I know of rail supporters right here on this board who drive long distances to work and don't support public transit today.

                        As an opponent to the rail tax I am thinking of ways to cut back on local consumption and perhaps purchase some goods and services from off island. Harder to do with the all encompassing GET than it was to simply stop buying bottled water and soda after the bottle tax kicked in 2004.


                        General Excise Surcharge Will Hurt Hawaii's Economy
                        I'm still here. Are you?

                        Comment


                        • Re: Rail Transit

                          Originally posted by Kalihiboy View Post
                          I'm actually surprised Mel who is so against taxes would support paying a toll to drive on a road every single day, talk about being taxed!!!
                          A toll road would only be an option. If motorists don't want to pay the toll, they are welcome to use the roads we now have, toll free.

                          The rail tax is not an option already. It has the force of law behind it and we all are forced to pay.


                          General Excise Surcharge Will Hurt Hawaii's Economy
                          I'm still here. Are you?

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                          • Re: Rail Transit

                            Originally posted by Kalihiboy View Post
                            Because of the disaster that happened in Boston I dont think a underground tunnel will be easily approved in any city until facts and figures are researched better. It could be a ecological disaster digging holes into Pearl Harbor and imagine if another quake were to hit how many people could be trapped not to mention people like me who would avoid it because I'm claustrophobic.

                            You keep saying there are "better options", but I've yet to see either Mel or Mapen list one.

                            I'm actually surprised Mel who is so against taxes would support paying a toll to drive on a road every single day, talk about being taxed!!!

                            There are some bridges on the mainland that were completed 40 years ago and supposedly back then after 20-25 years a toll would be REMOVED, yet why are people still paying to drive on these bridges and roads? I guess someone has to pay for the upkeep of these roads/bridges.

                            KalihiBoy
                            You call what happened in Boston a disaster? What happened in Boston does not go to say tunnels are flawed by nature. What happened in Boston was a deficiency in the construction and can be prevented from happening again. There's nothing wrong with tunnels, yet you want to claim tunnels will lead to ecological disaster?

                            I hate tolls too. You gotta pay to ride the rail, that's a toll. I don't think I understand your point. The elevated contra-flow road doesn't have to have a toll.

                            I have listed 3 solutions but you seem to ignore them.

                            1. Dedicated bus lanes, elevated in some areas, that will mimic the rail route. Much cheaper than rail, just as effective as rail.
                            2. Elevated contra-flow lane.
                            3. Tunnel/bridge under/over Pearl Harbor.

                            Did I not mention these?

                            Comment


                            • Re: Rail Transit

                              Originally posted by mel View Post
                              So you are calling the award winning Bus system inadequate? I certainly haven't been forcing you to drive. You have the option like the rest of the 8.3% of the people to use public transit now... TheBus. It may be inadequate, but it is already there. It is so funny that rail supporters do not support the transit we have now by actually using that transit. If every rail supporter from Waianae, Ewa Beach, and Mililani used TheBus today on a regular basis, a significant portion of gridlock may be cut.
                              In some parts of Oahu it is. For the most part going to and from work is okay since where I work and where I live there are a good number of bus routes that service the area.

                              An example of poor bus service is Mililani Mauka (it's been at least 3 years since I have been there) granted there is the #52 that provide service between metro Honolulu and Mililani Mauka (after Dillingham Blvd, straight onto the H1, then the H2 going off at Mililani Mauka). However if you live futher into Mililani Mauka without access to car your only access to public transportation is the Mililani shuttle and it runs like once a hour through the area.

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                              • Re: Rail Transit

                                Originally posted by mel View Post
                                Perhaps busses, but the mayor is dead set on rail. All the pro-transit testimony I heard at one recent council meeting was for rail, not a busway... nor toll road.

                                The odds are greater that more roads built, the more motorists will use them. Public transit is currently used by only 8.3% of the population. Are we spending $6 billion for only 8.3% of the commuting public?

                                So you are calling the award winning Bus system inadequate? I certainly haven't been forcing you to drive. You have the option like the rest of the 8.3% of the people to use public transit now... TheBus. It may be inadequate, but it is already there. It is so funny that rail supporters do not support the transit we have now by actually using that transit. If every rail supporter from Waianae, Ewa Beach, and Mililani used TheBus today on a regular basis, a significant portion of gridlock may be cut.

                                But I know of rail supporters right here on this board who drive long distances to work and don't support public transit today.

                                As an opponent to the rail tax I am thinking of ways to cut back on local consumption and perhaps purchase some goods and services from off island. Harder to do with the all encompassing GET than it was to simply stop buying bottled water and soda after the bottle tax kicked in 2004.
                                Please read section 6 of Bill 79 approved by the council. I'd still prefer rail but it won't be the mayor deciding this.

                                The council reserves the right to select the technology of the fixed guideway system for the locally preferred alternative.

                                Mel, I grow tired of the constant overstatement of numbers. Full rail with Waikiki spur is $5.5 billion and only with a 33% cost overrun factored in. It's really more like $3.7 billion if people don't sabotage the project and rather focus on keeping the project on time and on budget. But I guess you're too bitter to really want to do that.

                                The transit project is meant for all the people of Oahu. If only 8.3% of the commuting public wants to use it, it's the other 91.7% own choice to not use it. I say these numbers with a caveat because I'm well aware those on the Windward side and those in East Honolulu will not get to use the rail for work commutes unless they work in West Oahu. The only reason why roads may have a greater odds of more usage is only because right now, the whole island is car centric. Why don't we even the odds some more then? When the rail is done, make gas at $5 a gallon. Let's see what those percentages will be then.

                                I call the award winning The Bus grossly inadequate. Just because it got an award from the govt means jack. Look at The Bus thread. I posted the latest updates from The Bus for the new year. They will remove even more stops along several routes. Yeah, very helpful and convenient for those who would like to commute without a car. You already know the answer to why rail supporters don't use the current bus system or not as much. It is because the current bus is inadequate with service frequency (we still need to get to work on time you know), and the ride is a pain if you do long distance (per composite's suggestion, why don't you try riding from Ewa into town as research one day to understand this).

                                Funny, pro-car folks want to build a tollway. Why don't they all get into car pools first before talking about tollways? Just look at the sea of cars in the work commutes and tell me how many do you see are cars with just one occupant?

                                You're not forcing me to drive. Right, just like no one is forcing you to buy stuff after the new years.


                                Originally posted by mapen View Post
                                composite, you don't have to quote statistics to prove to me that traffic is bad and getting much worse. I am among the vast majority of people who own a car and drive to get where I want to go. But as bad as traffic is, it's still a hell of alot more convenient than the rail will be or the bus currently is.

                                The proposed rail route will not help me get to work. The proposed rail route will not help me get to the places I often go. The bus is inefficient compared to owning a car. I am an example of the vast majority of Oahu citizens.

                                I am not against mass transit. I do occasionally ride the bus when it's convenient.

                                However, I am against paying 5.5 billion dollars for something that I am sure will not significantly help alleviate traffic congestion when that money could be put to much better use on cheaper alternatives that will help both mass transit AND car owners such as myself. The elevated contra-flow solution combined with dedicated elevated bus lanes in place of rail is a small fraction of the cost and would be more effective at helping both mass transit users AND car owners. A tunnel or bridge over/under Pearl Harbor would help ease traffic tremendously, making it better for bus riders AND car owners.

                                5.5B for rail is a colossal waste when there are so many better options.
                                Mapen, this is where I hope now that the official vote has been taken, everyone will pull together to focus on making sure the project is on time, on budget, and all parties accountable. If that happens, the build cost is only supposed to be ~$3.7 billion. Not chump change but no where near the $5.5 bil.
                                Last edited by joshuatree; December 26, 2006, 04:51 PM.

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