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  • Re: Rail Transit

    Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
    If customers can't park, they'll shop somewhere else. If offices find it hard to get employees or generally find it too much hassle due to lack of employee parking they may relocate. And the decay begins.
    Alternatively there are plenty of people (like me) who would jump at the ability to get rid of our cars, especially in an island isolation situation. Those types are more likely to move into the areas that are well-serviced by public transit and walking distance shopping. In that case parking is just wasted space that could be housing more stores or even more housing.

    It's tough to say for sure what would happen, but it's definitely not a one-way argument. Downtown Portland for example has parking, but it's very expensive and often tough to find a space in some areas... and people have flocked into downtown in droves to live and work. Thanks to an emphasis on high-density housing/business combinations and a strict urban growth boundary, it is possible to drive for 20 minutes and be in the wilderness and farmlands here.

    Added: One of the places I've seen some of the worst urban decay, btw, is in Dallas where it's extremely flat and very easy to move out farther and farther. Everyone just moves out another layer every few years to escape the city, and the abandon what they left behind for decay. The neighborhood I grew up in there used to be pretty nice, and it's halfway to being a ghetto now. Only recently have they started putting in high-density living in the downtown city core, along with light rail and other transit improvements, and it's starting to turn around again.
    Last edited by Bard; November 8, 2006, 09:03 AM. Reason: Added

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    • Re: Rail Transit

      Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
      I was making a broader comment, it wasn't tied to the gas price. More specifically taking away parking downtown will cause decay. If parking is not necessary for business to function, then please explain a major feature found at Ala Moana Center, K-Mart, Wal-Mart or any other big box store. If customers can't park, they'll shop somewhere else. If offices find it hard to get employees or generally find it too much hassle due to lack of employee parking they may relocate. And the decay begins.
      In this regard, you are right. A certain amount of available parking or lack of can influence decay in downtown. But my suggestion is to remove all remaining street parking, not parking all together. And I should clarify to do this only after a rail/bus system has been set in place to offer an alternative, not before. Downtown Honolulu does have a substantial pool of parking garages. Affordable is another question.

      The premise behind removing street parking and to discourage employers from subsidizing parking is to show a true reflection of the cost of the automobile to Joe Average. You asked earlier what ways can be done to encourage people to get on the rail, aside from those that are car disadvantaged. These are subtle ways. No one is ordering you to take rail/bus but if you don't like the real cost of parking a car in downtown, well, you can take rail/bus.

      On a more macroscopic level, the reason why centers like Ala Moana, Wal-Mart, etc require huge parking lots in order to retain customers is because our city, our society, our lifestyle, is overwhelmingly car based. You can hit huge shopping centers or stores in Japan and there won't be a single parking spot, they have a huge lot in front for bicycles though. People argue that we're in the US, so what other countries do don't apply. But the truth is, growing population is the same problem no matter what part of the world you are in. And the effect is even more pronounced when you are on an island because you have finite land. What Oahu really needs is a clear and coordinated urban growth plan. If you want to retain any countryside or open spaces, you need to designate them as off limits to urban growth. And the places that already have urban growth, you need to allow density. I know the word density sounds bad, but that's the only way you can anticipate population growth without further sprawl. And to allow density, you need to lift restriction on building heights and you need to move people away from car use as the primary transport. It doesn't mean people can't own cars, but the attitude should be a car is more of a luxury item than a necessity.

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      • Re: Rail Transit

        The State of WA requires that companies employing more than 50 people have to offer incentives to their workers to cut down on single driver commuters. And every year the company has to file its results with the State.

        The State gives tax incentives to the employers who show that they are proactively trying to encourage alternative means of transportation. For the larger employers, this is a huge incentive. Some of the things that are offered are company-subsidized bus passes, company-sponsored car pools, flextime, telecommuting, and company owned vehicles that can be used by employees for their errands during the day (Flexcar), and guaranteed transportation home in case of an emergency. The City has a contest every year to find the company that has the most people who ride bikes to and from their workplace. Metro provides bike lockers and racks at their transit stations and park and rides for people who want to leave their cars at transit stations and bike to work. City buses all have bike racks in the front.

        One of the least painful ways to get cars off the road during peak hours is to offer employees flextime. This is especially convenient for people who work in offices because they could come to work as early as 7 a.m. and leave by 3 or 3:30, which leaves lots of daylight to go out and do things afterwards, or for those who work other alternative schedules (4-10 hour days, for example) it means not having to compete in traffic at least one workday a week.

        Miulang
        "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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        • Re: Rail Transit

          Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
          You can hit huge shopping centers or stores in Japan and there won't be a single parking spot, they have a huge lot in front for bicycles though.
          See photo. Diaei in Yokosuka.


          People argue that we're in the US, so what other countries do don't apply.
          We grew our areas around cars. The others have grown them around mass transit. So how do we transition without creating serious problems? The transformation is not trivial. Many private citizens will bear the cost directly rather then shared.
          Attached Files

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          • Re: Rail Transit

            Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
            Many private citizens will bear the cost directly rather then shared.
            Personally bearing the cost to have to pay for this via increased taxes is what I am opposed to the most. No one can afford this and no one should be forced to pay for this huge debaucle.
            I'm still here. Are you?

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            • Re: Rail Transit

              Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
              See photo. Diaei in Yokosuka.




              We grew our areas around cars. The others have grown them around mass transit. So how do we transition without creating serious problems? The transformation is not trivial. Many private citizens will bear the cost directly rather then shared.
              I didn't say there are no stores in Japan without parking, just that you do have stores without car parking as opposed to any major stores in the US.

              Yes, a transition won't be easy. But is the car/urban sprawl model of growth sustainable? I do wish the gov't would have made a greater effort in figuring out the finance portion. I don't think building a tollway is a smart idea. Short term, sure, price tag is cheaper and alleviates traffic. Long term, how does this address the problem of more cars in any meaningful way?

              Increasing the GET tax is never a good thing, especially since it's a GET tax. But part of me wonders, how much would we get as a subsidy from our tourists? You figure they would spend money while in town so they pay tax too.

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              • Re: Rail Transit

                Sustainable? Sustainable? SUSTAINABLE?

                That is the word that is the root of the problem. Many folks who promote "Sustainability" would say that low density growth is best so everybody can have a garden. But Low Density growth promotes dependence upon the automobile. But the greens don't want to admit that. Oh, and tall buidings would ruin the view. LOL.

                It is one of the classic Cog Diss arguments of the left.
                FutureNewsNetwork.com
                Energy answers are already here.

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                • Re: Rail Transit

                  A transition is doable and possible. There are a number of cities that are undergoing it now.

                  I think the real question is, can you afford not to do it? I'll be the first to admit the convenience of driving a car everywhere (and certainly some people can not go without a car, like many elderly people), but for absolutely everyone to drive cars... there are simply too many people and not enough space for roads, not enough resources to power all those new cars, not enough air left to absorb the pollution, ... it's gonna come to a head sooner or later. We can't force people to stop having so many children. So we have to do the next best thing -- change the economic incentives for how we build our cities and live our lives, to try to make it more long-term sustainable.

                  On the mainland we do have the option (considering all possibilities here) to just give up and start building new cities in the wilderness. More roads and bigger roads. Soon all will be covered in concrete heat sinks. Or we can do something really sensible and try to build condensed communities that have everything you need within walking or biking distance (thus providing natural exercise as well, another serious problem) with easy and fast transit between them.

                  Island communities don't particularly even have that "build out" option.

                  It's not a panacea, but IMO it's better than crossing our fingers and hoping that more and more cars will work out for the best. Make no mistake, that's what's going to happen over time as the population increases and they have no choice but to commute for hours because of the way our cities were built before they were born.

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                  • Re: Rail Transit

                    Well, the Advertiser front page said, simply:

                    Transit approved
                    The City Council yesterday approved a mass-transit plan for O'ahu that could go from Kalaeloa to Manoa and Waikiki and cost more than $5 billion. After a daylong session with more twists and turns than a train heading up a mountain pass, council members voted 7-2 to designate a fixed-guideway system, using either buses or rail, that supporters say will shape and guide O'ahu's growth for generations to come.
                    At the Star-Bulletin, it was:

                    All Aboard
                    The City Council, in a 7-2 vote yesterday, gave final approval to a fixed guideway mass transit system for Oahu but left it to Mayor Mufi Hannemann to decide key segments of the route. The Council settled the debate between the so-called green and yellow alternative lines in West Oahu by designating that both should be considered for a route that will run from west Kapolei to the University of Hawaii at Manoa, with a spur to Waikiki. The route is at least 28 miles long and has a minimum price tag of $4.6 billion, but no final numbers were available.
                    The City Council, in an ostensibly "historic" vote, actually punted on a couple of the biggest questions still looming: rail or something else (using the weasel term "fixed guideway" instead), and which route.

                    Mayor Mufi Hanneman, ringing a bell for the Salvation Army at Pearlridge yesterday, said the former question was answered in his mind already: rail.

                    I'm glad for it. But given how many complications and double-crosses have plagued rail transit in this town, for as long as I've been alive, I'll still be shocked and surprised if ground is actually broken on this thing by 2009.

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                    • Re: Rail Transit

                      Originally posted by pzarquon View Post
                      I'm glad for it. But given how many complications and double-crosses have plagued rail transit in this town, for as long as I've been alive, I'll still be shocked and surprised if ground is actually broken on this thing by 2009.
                      I hope all of you rail supporters are smiling every time that 4.7% exise tax is added to the bill on everything that we will be buying come January 1.

                      The opponents will continue to oppose this huge debaucle til the day the train plan hopefully dies.

                      Happy New Year.

                      I'm still here. Are you?

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                      • Re: Rail Transit

                        Originally posted by mel View Post
                        I hope all of you rail supporters are smiling every time that 4.7% exise tax is added to the bill on everything that we will be buying come January 1.

                        The opponents will continue to oppose this huge debaucle til the day the train plan hopefully dies.

                        Happy New Year.
                        If you don't like it... you can always move to the mainland.

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                        • Re: Rail Transit

                          Originally posted by mel View Post
                          ... to oppose this huge debaucle til the day the train plan hopefully dies.
                          i hope time will prove me wrong, but my gut feeling is that it'll prove to be a bottomless pit...
                          525,600 minutes, 525,000 moments so dear. 525,600 minutes - how do you measure, measure a year?

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                          • Re: Rail Transit

                            Anyone remember this episode of the Simpsons?

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marge_vs._the_Monorail
                            just started: mililaniblog.com

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                            • Re: Rail Transit

                              Originally posted by shaveice View Post
                              i hope time will prove me wrong, but my gut feeling is that it'll prove to be a bottomless pit...
                              I dunno, the yellow line installation in Portland came in under budget and finished sooner than expected. So it's possible for things to go right

                              Different worlds, I know, but... people said the same thing about the yellow line too.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Rail Transit

                                Originally posted by Palolo Joe View Post
                                If you don't like it... you can always move to the mainland.
                                I'm sure you'll be smiling ear to ear everytime you pay that extra tax.
                                I'm still here. Are you?

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