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The Iraq War - Chapter 5

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  • #91
    Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

    Originally posted by Miulang View Post
    While all of you are celebrating his "demise",
    Miulang... you are so kind hearted.... even to saddam after he's fracking dead.

    See you around...

    You know how to get a hold of me if you need to...

    one of my x-mas wishes I wished for about 2 - 3 years ago got answered tonight.

    Hugs Mlang...

    matter of fact.... that's my new HT nickname fore you m...

    is "M-lang"


    hugs tita....

    Damon

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    • #92
      Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

      Originally posted by Miulang View Post
      If that's true (and I haven't seen any reports that that is what happened). then there would have been only relatives of 148 Iraqis present. Absent were the relatives of the 100,000+ Kurds who were also massacred by Saddam.

      I really really fear for the safety of our troops now, and also for the safety of innocent Iraqi civilians...both Shia and Sunni...who will now become more numbers in the death toll.

      Miulang
      I read that earlier before the execution actually happened so who knows if things got changed last minute. At this point, it's better to have a few witnesses to confirm the execution but not too many to add fuel to the fire that's become daily life there.

      Whether there was an execution or not, our troops have been in harm's way for the last several years. Doing it now right before the holidays could be strategic, it could damper the reprisals. I don't see how locking him away would do anybody any good, every time he had a chance to speak in court, all he did was speak of inciting further rebellion.

      Comment


      • #93
        Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

        Originally posted by Mike_Lowery View Post
        He played Lionel Jefferson on "The Jeffersons" and "All in the Family"
        Aha...thanks. I was expecting a sports celeb! I never did follow The Jeffersons or Good Times so was not familiar with Mike Evans. I followed All In the Family a bit but not enough to remember Lionel.

        Comment


        • #94
          Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

          Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
          Whether there was an execution or not, our troops have been in harm's way for the last several years. Doing it now right before the holidays could be strategic, it could damper the reprisals. I don't see how locking him away would do anybody any good, every time he had a chance to speak in court, all he did was speak of inciting further rebellion.
          I agree with international legal experts who say that executing Saddam before the completion of his genocide trial for the slaughter of 100,000 Kurds will probably not help to unify the country. The Kurds represent about 1/3 of the population and the numbers of their relatives who were massacred far outweighed the 148 who were killed in Djail. The speedy execution of Saddam kind of implies that the Kurds are inconsequential compared to the 148 Shia killed. So for the Kurds, there can be no justice or vindication.

          Was the timing of his execution meant to quell reprisals? Depends. It may just postpone the increase in violence against our troops and against the Shia until after Eid (which ends either Wednesday or Thursday, depending on whether you're Shia or Sunni). Almost immediately after the execution was announced, a car bomb in Kufa (a Shia town) killed at least 30 civilians and another in Baghdad killed at least 36.

          Miulang
          "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

          Comment


          • #95
            Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

            Originally posted by Miulang View Post
            This sounds just waaaay too convenient to me. Turns out Saddam was not executed in Baghdad in front of his people, but on the grounds of the heavily US-fortified Green Zone with only US and Iraqi officials present. So no Iraqi civilian witnessed the event at all.



            While all of you are celebrating his "demise", please remember that it was the US Government who put him in power in the first place, and it was the US Government which turned its head the other way while he was murdering Kurds (the second trial for which he was never to be tried). All we did by getting rid of Saddam was to get rid of our "mistake". This is typical of the US Government...set up puppet governments so we can control oil or other strategic resources, and then when those leaders become uppity, find some excuse to get rid of them.

            Good job, Dubya. Now that one man who committed crimes against humanity is gone, will you, Dick Cheney, and Donald Rumsfeld be next???

            Miulang
            I'm with you, Miulang. It's kinda like mafia action where they "off" the middle man who did all the dirty work for the big man. I bet you Cheney, Rumsfeld and George W are probably indirectly responsible for waaay more deaths. Typical American shenanigans, though, not surprising.

            I'm totally feeling Leo Lakio and Lei Liko's sentiments too, though. I think it's really cruel and ironic to celebrate someone's death. To me, it's a bad indication of how brain-washed, programmed, and inhumane we've become. I'm not supporting Hussein at all, but since you can't change the past, just let him live his years out working in jail or something. Aloha.

            Comment


            • #96
              Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

              I don't know why but I feel the execution of Saddam was wrong.
              I am normally a person of revenge. But I find his hanging hard to digest.
              Especially the fact that there is no proof of collabration between Saddam and Bin Laden in 9/11
              To me Saddam was just a BS artist with lots of American $$$.
              Bush and his adminstration is a bunch of BS Artist with our $$$.
              But to me the Iraqi war stinks. I feel like it is a lot of smoke and mirrors.
              There is something wrong with all this Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield & whoeverelse
              running the war effort. What are we really fighting for? Everytime I turn around I
              hear another scam going on. I cringe everytime I hear the word Haliburton.
              Everytime I hear the H word there is always $$$ attached to it. Also the high price of
              gas and the record profits the Arabs and Oil companies are making. and here we are
              us common people are struggling to make ends meet.

              After 9/11 I was pro-war. pro-revenge. Now I have a headache just figuring out what
              the Kurds, Sunnis and Shiites really are. Plus the link to Palestine and the fight against
              the Israelis....very confusing.

              I was a history flunkie. Now all I do is read the internet learning about history.

              Comment


              • #97
                Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

                I'm with you,Speedtek-- it all seems like a bigger mess now than it was to start. What have we accomlished there beyond taking Saddam out of power and now killing him? We've surely made him a martyr in some circles. I have no love for Hussein, but I'd like to have seen us do something more constructive in Iraq since we've (apparently) given up on balancing the budget and have decided to spend our grandchildren's taxes on "bettering" the world at large (while neglecting our own communities at home). Lovely.
                Oh well...

                "When you get up in the morning and the light is hurt your head
                The first thing you do when you get up out of bed
                Is hit that streets a-runnin and try to beat the masses
                And go get yourself some cheap sunglasses..."
                Oh yeah

                Praise be the internetz! There is so much to learn (and a lot of garbage out here, too). Gotta love google!

                Blessings*

                Barb

                Comment


                • #98
                  Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

                  From an article published today in the NYT by John F. Burns about Saddam Hussein:

                  "At that instant, I felt sorry for him, as a man in distress and perhaps, too, as a once almighty figure reduced to ignominy. But the expression of that pity to the Iraqis present marked the distance between those, like me, who had taken the measure of Saddam’s terror as a visitor, shielded from the worst of it by the minders and the claustrophobic world of closely guarded hotels and supervised Information Ministry trips, and Iraqis who lived through it with no shield."

                  "That I could feel pity for him struck the Iraqis with whom I talked as evidence of a profound moral corruption.[emphasis added] I came to understand how a Westerner used to the civilities of democracy and due process — even a reporter who thought he grasped the depths of Saddam’s depravity — fell short of the Iraqis’ sense, forged by years of brutality, of the power of his unmitigated evil."

                  The entire article is well worth reading. The world is a better place with Saddam dead alongside Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin and Kim Il Sung, just to name a few in more recent memory. Those who flatter themselves with the thought that Bush or Cheney or Rumsfeld are somehow morally equivalent to a man who strangled his mistress with his bare hands in front of her child, reveled in the brutal rape and torture of women - never mind the hundreds of thousands who were exterminated at his behest - should take a serious reality check.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

                    Originally posted by glossyp View Post
                    From an article published today in the NYT by John F. Burns about Saddam Hussein:

                    "At that instant, I felt sorry for him, as a man in distress and perhaps, too, as a once almighty figure reduced to ignominy. But the expression of that pity to the Iraqis present marked the distance between those, like me, who had taken the measure of Saddam’s terror as a visitor, shielded from the worst of it by the minders and the claustrophobic world of closely guarded hotels and supervised Information Ministry trips, and Iraqis who lived through it with no shield."

                    "That I could feel pity for him struck the Iraqis with whom I talked as evidence of a profound moral corruption.[emphasis added] I came to understand how a Westerner used to the civilities of democracy and due process — even a reporter who thought he grasped the depths of Saddam’s depravity — fell short of the Iraqis’ sense, forged by years of brutality, of the power of his unmitigated evil."

                    The entire article is well worth reading. The world is a better place with Saddam dead alongside Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin and Kim Il Sung, just to name a few in more recent memory. Those who flatter themselves with the thought that Bush or Cheney or Rumsfeld are somehow morally equivalent to a man who strangled his mistress with his bare hands in front of her child, reveled in the brutal rape and torture of women - never mind the hundreds of thousands who were exterminated at his behest - should take a serious reality check.
                    I agree, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld have their share of travesties but they are no where at the level of Hussein. Just because the US backed Hussein in the past don't mean the US backed and directed Hussein to commit the massacres that he did. He got what he deserved.

                    Originally posted by Miulang View Post
                    I agree with international legal experts who say that executing Saddam before the completion of his genocide trial for the slaughter of 100,000 Kurds will probably not help to unify the country. The Kurds represent about 1/3 of the population and the numbers of their relatives who were massacred far outweighed the 148 who were killed in Djail. The speedy execution of Saddam kind of implies that the Kurds are inconsequential compared to the 148 Shia killed. So for the Kurds, there can be no justice or vindication.

                    Was the timing of his execution meant to quell reprisals? Depends. It may just postpone the increase in violence against our troops and against the Shia until after Eid (which ends either Wednesday or Thursday, depending on whether you're Shia or Sunni). Almost immediately after the execution was announced, a car bomb in Kufa (a Shia town) killed at least 30 civilians and another in Baghdad killed at least 36.

                    Miulang
                    There is vindication for the Kurds. The man got hung. I guess the Kurds didn't have a chance to personally beat up, spit on, or mutilate the body. In that regards, than yeah, they didn't get justice or vindication.

                    Letting Hussein live his life away in prison on someone else's dime would have been no justice or vindication. That would have said, "So you killed masses of people brutally? Here's a slap on the wrist, now go live your live peacefully in seclusion."

                    Comment


                    • Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

                      Well, the Bush family certainly got their vindication, didn't they? It's been pretty well established that Dubya has had a vendetta out for Saddam ever since the despot hatched an assassination plot against Bush 41 and his wife and Laura Bush (Dubya conveniently stayed home on that trip because he was preparing to run for the governorship of TX at the time).

                      ...the history of animosity between the Bushes and Saddam is hard to ignore. The relationship actually began as one of pragmatic friendship in the 1980s, when Saddam was at war with the main U.S. enemy in the region, Iran, and George H.W. Bush was vice president in an administration that offered him help. A 1992 New Yorker article suggested that Bush, through Arab intermediaries, advised Saddam to intensify the bombing of Iran.

                      Saddam soon became too much to handle. "People came to understand him as someone who was much less stable and someone who could not be trusted," said Craig Fuller, chief of staff to the elder Bush when he was vice president. Saddam's invasion of Kuwait in August 1990 proved a strategic miscalculation that put him and the Bushes forever on opposite sides.

                      The elder Bush wrongly assumed that Iraqis would overthrow Saddam, and his decision not to march to Baghdad after freeing Kuwait would haunt him and his son. An unbowed Saddam defied the international community, and in April 1993, when Bush went to Kuwait for a hero's welcome, a group of Iraqis crossed the border in what was called a thwarted attempt to blow him up. Bill Clinton launched 23 Tomahawk missiles against Iraqi targets in retaliation.

                      Among those on that trip who could have been killed were Barbara Bush and Laura Bush. George W. Bush had stayed in Texas, where he was preparing to run for governor. Some later questioned the seriousness of the assassination attempt or its connections to Baghdad. But the incident clearly was a searing moment for the Bush family.

                      By the time the younger Bush ran for president, he appeared determined not to repeat the mistake he believed his father made with Saddam. "No one envisioned him still standing," the candidate told BBC in November 1999. "It's time to finish the task."

                      At a debate a couple of weeks later, Bush was more explicit. "If I found that in any way, shape, or form that he was developing weapons of mass destruction, I'd take him out," he said.

                      ...Bush later talked with Sen. Peter Fitzgerald, R-Ill., aboard Air Force One about assassinating Saddam, saying he would repeal the executive order banning assassination of foreign leaders if intelligence gave him a clear shot.

                      "The fact that he tried to kill my father and my wife shows the nature of the man," Bush told interviewers in March 2003. "And he not only tried to kill my father and wife, he's killed thousands of his own citizens." But he denied a vendetta. "Nah, no," he said. "I'm doing my job as the president, based upon the threats that face this country."
                      From Riverbend's blog today, this entry commenting on the final moments of Saddam's life as he stood at the gallows waiting to be hanged:

                      From the video that was leaked, it was not an executioner who yelled "long live Muqtada al-Sadr". See, this is another low the Maliki government sunk to- they had some hecklers conveniently standing by during the execution. Maliki claimed they were "some witnesses from the trial", but they were, very obviously, hecklers. The moment the noose was around Saddam's neck, they began chanting, in unison, "God's prayers be on Mohamed and on Mohamed's family…" Something else I didn't quite catch (but it was very coordinated), and then "Muqtada, Muqtada, Muqtada!" One of them called out to Saddam, "Go to hell…" (in Arabic). Saddam looked down disdainfully and answered "Heya hay il marjala…?" which is basically saying, "Is this your manhood…?".

                      Someone half-heartedly called out to the hecklers, "I beg you, I beg you- the man is being executed!" They were slightly quieter and then Saddam stood and said, "Ashadu an la ilaha ila Allah, wa ashhadu ana Mohammedun rasool Allah…" Which means, "I witness there is no god but Allah and that Mohammed is His messenger." These are the words a Muslim (Sunnis and Shia alike) should say on their deathbed. He repeated this one more time, very clearly, but before he could finish it, he was lynched.

                      So, no, CNN, his last words were not "Muqtada Al Sadr" in a mocking tone- just thought someone should clear that up. (Really people, six of you contributed to that article!)
                      And sadly, the American death toll reached 3000 killed today.


                      Miulang
                      "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                      Comment


                      • Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

                        Originally posted by Miulang View Post
                        Well, the Bush family certainly got their vindication, didn't they? It's been pretty well established that Dubya has had a vendetta out for Saddam ever since the despot hatched an assassination plot against Bush 41 and his wife and Laura Bush (Dubya conveniently stayed home on that trip because he was preparing to run for the governorship of TX at the time).



                        From Riverbend's blog today, this entry commenting on the final moments of Saddam's life as he stood at the gallows waiting to be hanged:



                        And sadly, the American death toll reached 3000 killed today.


                        Miulang
                        bortaS bIr jablu'DI' reH QaQqu' nay'(Revenge is a Dish, Best Served Cold)- Klingon Proverb

                        I guess South Park's vision of HELL is a reality now....
                        Attached Files
                        Last edited by alohabear; December 31, 2006, 02:33 PM.
                        Listen to KEITH AND THE GIRLsigpic

                        Stupid people come in all flavors-buzz1941
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                        • Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 5

                          What's most ironic is that there have been MORE people killed (US troops and Iraqi civilians) since Saddam was captured than when he was in power (even including the 100k+ Kurds he massacred)! And we don't have Saddam to use as a scapegoat anymore. Notice how we don't seem to be going after OBL or MaS with quite the same intensity as we did Saddam?

                          We've shut him up. The moment Saddam's hooded executioner pulled the lever of the trapdoor in Baghdad yesterday morning, Washington's secrets were safe. The shameless, outrageous, covert military support which the United States - and Britain - gave to Saddam for more than a decade remains the one terrible story which our presidents and prime ministers do not want the world to remember. And now Saddam, who knew the full extent of that Western support - given to him while he was perpetrating some of the worst atrocities since the Second World War - is dead.

                          Gone is the man who personally received the CIA's help in destroying the Iraqi communist party. After Saddam seized power, US intelligence gave his minions the home addresses of communists in Baghdad and other cities in an effort to destroy the Soviet Union's influence in Iraq. Saddam's mukhabarat visited every home, arrested the occupants and their families, and butchered the lot. Public hanging was for plotters; the communists, their wives and children, were given special treatment - extreme torture before execution at Abu Ghraib.

                          There is growing evidence across the Arab world that Saddam held a series of meetings with senior American officials prior to his invasion of Iran in 1980 - both he and the US administration believed that the Islamic Republic would collapse if Saddam sent his legions across the border - and the Pentagon was instructed to assist Iraq's military machine by providing intelligence on the Iranian order of battle
                          "Selective Justice and the Execution of Saddam Hussein"

                          "How Washington and London helped to create the monster they went to war to destroy"



                          Miulang
                          Last edited by Miulang; December 31, 2006, 03:10 PM.
                          "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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                          • Respectfully declining to re-enlist...

                            BECAUSE WE'RE DEAD.

                            The Army said Friday it would apologize to the families of about 275 officers killed or wounded in action who were mistakenly sent letters urging them to return to active duty.

                            The letters were sent a few days after Christmas to more than 5,100 Army officers who had recently left the service. Included were letters to about 75 officers killed in action and about 200 wounded in action.
                            Miulang
                            "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                            Comment


                            • Not a "surge" but a "bump"...

                              Word has already leaked out that the President's change in strategy will require sending additional troops to Iraq to quell the insurgency. However, State Dept. sources say that when the President goes before the nation this Wed. or Thursday night to discuss the new deployments, the numbers will be less than what everyone is expecting and more on the order of around 15,000 additional troops. This is a good thing, because the generals are saying that they can only provide another 9,000 ready troops.

                              But almost everyone who knows anything about the conditions in Iraq says that 10-15,000 additional troops will have no effect on the sectarian violence that is occurring in Iraq today. If that's true, then what will the mission of the additional troops be? To knock down every door in Baghdad to roust insurgents? And how do you distinguish between an innocent citizen and a Sunni insurgent or a Shia militiaman?

                              I predict that all sending additional troops in will do is add more American names to the list of those killed or injured in the line of duty.

                              Even Military.com has posted an editorial implying that the President is delusional if he plans to ask for more troops to be sent to Iraq:

                              Those who've sacrificed the most - America's Army and Marine ground forces and their families - will be asked to continue bearing the burden and paying an even higher price in dead and wounded for a president's ego and intransigence.

                              The very troops who will make up the temporary bump in U.S. forces in Iraq are those who've already paid that price over and over. They'll be found by a sleight-of-hand maneuver: ordering units already tapped to return to Iraq to go there earlier than scheduled.

                              That isn't even robbing Peter to pay Paul. It's robbing Peter to pay Peter.

                              George W. Bush believes that he can buy another couple of years of violent stalemate so he can hand off the disaster to whoever succeeds him in the White House on Jan. 20, 2009. How many more Americans and Iraqis must die to ensure that Bush's parting words as he retreats to Crawford, Texas, will be: I never cut and ran. I stood tall. I kept America safe.

                              The problem with that scenario is that it, like all the others drawn by George Bush and Dick Cheney, is far too rosy. The way forward in Iraq is a spiral toward an even bloodier future, and the real decisions are the Iraqis', not George Bush's.
                              Dan Inouye thinks it's great that Adm Foxy Fallon of the Pacific Command will now replace Gen. Abizaid as chief of overall operations in Iraq. Interesting that a Navy guy will be in charge of ground operations over there. My guess is the main reason why he was chosen is because we are ramping up for our next military engagement: Iran, where our "battle" will be fought on the water in the Strait of Hormuz. Replacing Gen. Casey with Gen. Petraeus does make sense though, since Petraeus has been responsible for the training of the Iraqi forces.

                              Miulang
                              Last edited by Miulang; January 6, 2007, 04:19 PM.
                              "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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                              • Do zionUSt$ care whether Sunni or Shia, civilian or militant

                                --
                                -- And how do you distinguish between an innocent citizen and a Sunni insurgent or a Shia militiaman? --

                                In military actions of the recent year, US media reports have ceased making significant distinctions between dead civilians and dead insurgents/militiamen: in other words, for an Iraqi or an Afghan to be rendered dead as a consequence of U.S. (whether or not including Iraqi army) actions is a sure indication that the killed individual(s) was (were) a () terrorist(s) [SIZE="1"](militant anti-terrorUSt($)), since there is no US media attending such killing sessions, the media just reports the numbers of non-U.S. peoples killed as they are told such numbers by their U.S. military counterparts. Taking such reports at face value one could be led to several remarkable conclusions:

                                --- with U.S. advisors and forces, the "New Iraqi Army" always "get their man"/men efficiently, never harming civilians; always justly, humanely and correctly killing their opponents. For example: ' Thirty insurgents killed in action... (dah,dah,dah)... ' with no mention of civilian casualities!! Time after time, coalition action after coalition action...the same thing: No mention of civilian casualities!!? Such a claim for "perfect offense" can only mean: The coalition forces are lying or else the "insurgents" enjoy the great military luxury of being able to conduct warfare far away from loved ones in which case they, the "insurgents", are free to choose the battlegrounds on which to fight those who deem them to be a mortal enemy in their own homeland.

                                --- the truth is that there are many numbers of non-reported, under-reported and mis-reported Iraqi civilian casualities in this nearing two decade-old USraeli war on Iraq.
                                Last edited by waioli kai; January 7, 2007, 08:36 AM.

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