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  • Re: Shake and Quake!

    The reason why Honolulu's power went down and stayed down as long as it did is because of Oahu's power grid. It has more customers and is more complex than the power grids on the Neighbor Islands.

    HECO said the earthquakes, one with a magnitude of 6.6, caused two generators on O'ahu to shut down. The two — one at Kahe Point and the other at Aloha Tower Downtown — accounted for about 12 percent of the generating capacity of the system at the time.

    Once those generators stopped producing, HECO's automated system started shutting off power to customers, so demand would not overwhelm the 11 generators that were still working.
    One bummer thing about Hawai'is power grids is you are kind of isolated in the middle of nowhere; if your grid goes down, the power company can't divert power from other neighboring grids like they do up here.

    Miulang

    P.S. There were a couple of positive things that came out of this, though. One is that HECO had better figure out why the entire grid went down instead of just producing a brownout to accommodate that 12% loss of generator power, and I am truly grateful that this happened on a Sunday and early enough in the morning that most people were still at home. If you thought yesterday was a mess, think of how much worse it could have been if the earthquakes had struck around 10:30 a.m. on a workday (like our Nisqually quake did) with everybody having to leave their offices and sitting on the freeway trying to get home.
    Last edited by Miulang; October 16, 2006, 10:10 AM.
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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    • Re: Shake and Quake!

      Luckily we were preparing to bbq sunday night so we were all good with food. Friends came over and hung out, we watched DVD's on various laptops. Our power didnt get turned on until 1am, woke me up. Considered getting online but had an early morning so went back to sleep. Got up and booted up the PC but it seems that RR in Nuuanu is down.
      Aquaponics in Paradise !

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      • Re: Shake and Quake!

        Originally posted by Miulang View Post
        The reason why Honolulu's power went down and stayed down as long as it did is because of Oahu's power grid. It has more customers and is more complex than the power grids on the Neighbor Islands.

        One bummer thing about Hawai'is power grids is you are kind of isolated in the middle of nowhere; if your grid goes down, the power company can't divert power from other neighboring grids like they do up here.
        I'm wondering if Oahu's longer outtage is not just due to a bigger and more complex grid, but also the lack of redundancy in transmission lines in certain areas, particularly East Oahu. HECO has been pushing to build a new corridor of tranmission lines for years but NIMBY has always fought it. Don't remember who won that fight.

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        • Re: Shake and Quake!

          Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
          I'm wondering if Oahu's longer outtage is not just due to a bigger and more complex grid, but also the lack of redundancy in transmission lines in certain areas, particularly East Oahu. HECO has been pushing to build a new corridor of tranmission lines for years but NIMBY has always fought it. Don't remember who won that fight.
          I think that's the corridor they planned to run directly over the UH-Manoa campus. Good thing it got shut down. Hopefully they come up with another plan to backup East Oahu's power.
          Twitter: LookMaICanWrite


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          • Re: Shake and Quake!

            Originally posted by Mike_Lowery View Post
            I think that's the corridor they planned to run directly over the UH-Manoa campus. Good thing it got shut down. Hopefully they come up with another plan to backup East Oahu's power.
            My "No on 138kv" sticker's still on my dresser. I had em just about everywhere while that was going on.
            Tessie, "Nuf Ced" McGreevey shouted
            We're not here to mess around
            Boston, you know we love you madly
            Hear the crowd roar to your sound
            Don't blame us if we ever doubt you
            You know we couldn't live without you
            Tessie, you are the only only only

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            • Re: Shake and Quake!

              Originally posted by Mike_Lowery View Post
              I think that's the corridor they planned to run directly over the UH-Manoa campus. Good thing it got shut down. Hopefully they come up with another plan to backup East Oahu's power.
              That would also get shut down? You can't demand a properly redundant, wide-loop power grid but print stickers and stage protests when they try to do just that. "Put it underground," comes the cry... but how much you wanna bet that (1.) environmentalists will still find a way to declare excavation even more of a threat to endangered critters, and (2.) residents will howl in a chorus when they get their next rate hike notice.

              I agree that Honolulu is overbuilt and the infrastructure is weak... but the inadequacy of the infrastructure, let alone the costs of such development, must at least in part be related to NIMBY tendencies. Everyone complains about the next new subdivision... 'til their teenagers hit their late 20s and still can't find a place to live.

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              • Re: Shake and Quake!

                Funny you should mention Oahu being overbuilt, PZ. According to the geophysicist quoted in these earthquake FAQs on MSNBC, the weight of the islands do have some bearing on this particular type of earthquake (tectonic rather than volcanic).

                Does that mean that the sheer weight of the islands is what caused the quake?
                In a general sense, yes. There are technical details, but that’s basically the idea. The buildup of the island is causing additional stresses.
                ]Miulang
                "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

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                • Re: Shake and Quake!

                  Caues of Quake:

                  ...like Sunday's magnitude-6.7 that caused blackouts and landslides — are rare and are caused not by eruptions, but by the buildup of stress deep in the crust as volcanoes grow and spread, experts say.
                  The crust is flexed by the weight of the island
                  http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061016/...NlYwMlJVRPUCUl

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                  • Re: Shake and Quake!

                    Originally posted by Kelly0040 View Post
                    I was rather surprised at how many people had no real preparations for things like this. Earthquakes may not be common, but c'mon - how do folks not have a flashlight?
                    If I remember right I got at least 5 flashlights of different types in the house, I just can't remember where there all are and my place is a mess anyway (way before the earthquake hit). After the 3rd tremor shaked the building, I was kind of wondering if a 4th will come. I was trying to pack some things in a backpack in the event we had to leave the building (a 10+ story highrise) in case of a collapse. And I was debating what to take, my first impression was to take the laptop but after a few minutes later I decided it would weigh me down so I nixed that, pack a day worth of clothes, a roll of toilet paper, my medications, some cash I had in a box, a umbrella, a jacket (since it was raining) and spending about 5 to 10 minutes looking for a flashlight.

                    What I did during that time finding a flashlight was to pack some spare AA and AAA batteries since they were easy to find in my place and to use them for just in case I ran into someone who had a radio or flashlight with no batteries. What I was truely looking for was for a 4 AA cell flashlight from Coleman. This one had two modes, standard flashlight or as a lantern. Would be great in a shelter.

                    I couldn't find the Coleman but I did manage to find a 2 AA cell Maglight in one of my model rocketry range boxes and the light from it look strong.

                    I didn't take the radio with me since it was a unit with a CD player and used 6 C cells. I left that behind in the apartment. I did pack my cell phone and a FRS radio and then left the apartment to go downstairs.

                    For the next time I think what I need to get is a smaller AM/FM radio, one that runs on AA batteries. For that matter any battery operated device should be of one type. AA batteries seem about the best for cost and size.

                    Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                    I'm wondering if Oahu's longer outtage is not just due to a bigger and more complex grid, but also the lack of redundancy in transmission lines in certain areas, particularly East Oahu. HECO has been pushing to build a new corridor of tranmission lines for years but NIMBY has always fought it. Don't remember who won that fight.
                    In yesterday's case I don't think redundant tranmission lines would have helped. The problem was with the generators going off-line not tranmissions going down due to high winds (or poles going down due to earthquakes).

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                    • Re: Shake and Quake!

                      NIMBY ..... another good word describing one aspect of the Politics of NO.

                      It is likely that Josh & PZ see the problem, while Lei & Mike scream "Who me?".

                      There's so many laws we can't hardly build a cheap enough dwelling anymore for the poorest folk, let alone get them some reliable electricity or sewer systems. Everybody complains (all the while pumping out more kids), but nobody thinks they are to blame.

                      It's been a good run for planners, feasibility study writers, companies that do EIS work, or anybody else involved in the dwelling industry who does NOT actually drive a tractor or swing a hammer. Here on Big Island, consultation is practically a cottage industry to a County Government overwhelmed to the point of intransigence by the people at every Public Hearing.

                      As Boomers age, the next 2 generations (Gen X & Y) will lead the way in undoing some of the ridiculous & costly obstacles that 35 years of protest & emotion-based ignorance have yielded. The crumbling infrastructure left behind will be the historical legacy of American Baby Boomers. I bet a dollar that history books in 200 years villify their short-sightedness. That's why they call it the ME generation. No need to build for the future if you don't care about your children's grandchildren. Better to Save the Planet than the humans.
                      FutureNewsNetwork.com
                      Energy answers are already here.

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                      • Re: Shake and Quake!

                        Originally posted by Miulang View Post
                        Funny you should mention Oahu being overbuilt, PZ. According to the geophysicist quoted in these earthquake FAQs on MSNBC, the weight of the islands do have some bearing on this particular type of earthquake (tectonic rather than volcanic).
                        Dear lord. For all the construction and human activity across the island chain, I'm pretty sure, in the geologic sense, that all that concrete and steel is barely like a leg hair on a fly on an elephant on a supertanker in the Caspian sea. A construction project might sink into a poorly set foundation, but weight wise, you could probably add a dozen Waikiki to Oahu and the Earth's crust wouldn't notice.

                        The "settling" in this quake is the same cause attributed to a rumble a month and a half ago... and the shifts in geologic mass are related to volcanic activity, not a new condo.
                        Originally posted by timkona
                        Better to Save the Planet than the humans.
                        When it comes to saving the Earth, the fact of the matter is, the worst we're going to do is make it uninhabitable for us and a few other critters. In the long view, we'd be forgotten in the blink of an eye... as we've only been here for a tenth of said blink. One of my favorite geology professors at UHH, Carl Johnson, used to have a quote that I printed and put on my dorm door about the planet not needing saving. It was doing just fine without us, and will have a good long run after we're gone.

                        Anyway. Earthquakes and power outages. Interesting stuff, yeah?

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                        • Re: Shake and Quake!

                          Originally posted by pzarquon View Post
                          In the long view, we'd be forgotten in the blink of an eye... as we've only been here for a tenth of said blink.
                          Great chart. Here's an article that provides an extended discussion of the same thing.

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                          • Re: Shake and Quake!

                            Tim, while I find a lot of what you have to say interesting, you have this disconcerting tendency to throw out everything you have a problem with, and wave your hands around and say "ya know?!" as if it's all related Something I see a lot of in politics these days.

                            Another version of "ME!" is someone not giving a rat's 'okole what problems their own desires cause people -- such as build-up at the expense of not having any nature left to enjoy, or polluting rivers because economic build-up is more important than anything else. Sometimes people really do need to push back against a selfish interest to keep it from steamrolling the public's interests, but even good things can definitely be taken too far.

                            I think the basic problem is as you said, people having lots and lots of children and then not wanting to deal with the consequences of it. (Yes, children are wonderful, but they also multiply and produce population pressure. ) I'm not sure there's a really good voluntary solution to that.

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                            • Re: Shake and Quake!

                              Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                              I'm wondering if Oahu's longer outtage is not just due to a bigger and more complex grid, but also the lack of redundancy in transmission lines in certain areas, particularly East Oahu. HECO has been pushing to build a new corridor of tranmission lines for years but NIMBY has always fought it. Don't remember who won that fight.
                              BINGO!!! Oahu's reaction to the earthquake was more out of what happened when the power went out. And that's the more pressing concern for Oahu. It didn't have to be an earthquake hundreds of miles away to generate the chaos that Honolulu observed yesterday.

                              Meanwhile here on the Big Island where the damage was substantial and the reality right in the backyard in West Hawaii, news is all about how Oahu coped with the power outtage. That apparently is/was the more important news of the day.

                              I wanted to see coverage of West Hawaii in this morning's KHON 2 Morning news but it was all about Oahu. It was as if the quake's epicenter was right over Honolulu with all the coverage there instead of here on the Big Island where the most damage occured...DUH the epicenter was right off shore.

                              In Hilo we experienced the net effect of trying to stand on the bed of a moving pick up truck while travelling down a bumpy road. The shaking lasted for about a minute but definately over 30-seconds. I guess the two massive volcanoes of Mauna Kea and Mauna Loa shielded East Hawaii from any significant damage. As a matter of fact, only a couple of traffic lights were blinking in Hilo. We did have several black outs however not enough to keep me from building my cottage out back the rest of yesterday.

                              I hear Kona Home Depot had product all over the floors. Not a good place to be when an earthquake rattles the store. Those 12 and 16-foot steel racks are top loaded with the heavy stuff (table saws and stuff) to keep them off the floor so there's room for the more faster moving products. I think we may need to reaccess that policy.

                              Anyway I hope West Hawaii can recover from the devastation. On Oahu, well I think the State of Hawaii has to look closely at that island's power grid and keep it up and running because that was pretty much the problem there, not so much the quake itself. Anything else could have caused that kind of massive power outtage and the resulting chaos would be the same.

                              This kind of dependence on power illustrates how fragile a society can become when things like electricity stops flowing. Heaven forbid a stoppage of water or a dock strike

                              Me I whipped out my propane Coleman dual burner stove I use for camping and cooked breakfast for the kids and remarked how much we're saving in electricity by doing so. Turn lemons into lemonade as they say and roll with it.
                              Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

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                              • Re: Shake and Quake!

                                To change the subject a bit:
                                Linda Lingle is golden. Talk about being in the right place at the right time. Getting the emergency declared so quickly. Putting in some face time with Kona PD, getting in a helicopter for a bird's eye view, flying to Oahu with the ANG. Her stock is up. No one can plan these events and it's a good thing Mufi isn't running for office. So where's Mufi? On his way back from Korea? We all Tingled With Lingle. Maybe we should ask Mufi what a nuclear test feels like? Pretty much the same thing?
                                Aloha from Lavagal

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