Ethanol....

[joshuatree]

Re: Plutonium, breeder reactor power vs. Ethanol ?

While it is true that plutonium fission bombs and plutonium triggers for nuclear and thermonuclear explosive devices are uses for plutonium the main reason that breeder reactors (which use plutonium instead of uranium in their reactors) were not extensively developed in the U.S. goes back to Jimmy Carter's presidency. Carter, a Navy nuclear engineer (possibly the best educated President the U.S. has ever had, at least on par with Thomas Jefferson), and his administration decided that it was not worth the risks associated with plutonium-based nuclear power plants in the United States that would necessitate the accumulation and transport of plutonium all over the U.S. Few substances in the known universe are as lethal to life as is plutonium whose half-life is around 10,000 years. The risks and the consequences of accidents, terrorism, sabotage involving even relatively small quantities of plutonium, muchless tons of the stuff, is incalculable. Should France ever suffer a major instance of plutonium dispersion inside their nation as a result of their energy dependence on the element there would be likely be a calamitous redistribution of the nation's population. Perhaps they would move France, the nation, to the Pacific and rename Tahiti.

But that's the major difference in how nuclear power is approached in the US vs France. The French strongly believe in reprocessing spent nuclear fuel. In fact, 95% of spent nuclear fuel can be reprocessed and reused as fuel again. The estimate is that nuclear fuel can be reprocessed up to 60 times before it is no longer useful in a nuclear power plant. This is why the amount of actual nuclear waste coming out of France is little compared to the US. We basically store the waste in temporary ponds after one use while they recycle it many times over. French nuclear plants don't have the numerous ponds that our plants do. The logic is this, if you have a well secured plant, why not recycle the fuel to make the most of it, to reduce the actual amount of waste? Plutonium is produced, yes, but even the one-use nuclear rods in ponds are dangerous so you still need security. So why not just go all the way?

[joshuatree]

Re: Ethanol....

To Joshua....of course solar panels don't work at night. That's why I'm for researching electricity storage devices, such that we can continue at night. There are several promising technologies under research.

The number one problem with GeoThermal is the unpredictabliltiy of the source. One day barely a trickle of steam, the next day it blows your collector/exchanger pipes sky high.

The GEM is a perfect example of a brand new electric vehicle for under $10k. I know because I almost bought one.

Well you could use the excess energy produced by solar panels during the day to split hydrogen and oxygen for fuel cells. Or perhaps store the energy in the form of mechanical energy, pumping water uphill to be run down at night. But both will have energy loses as you convert the power from one form to another. As much as I like solar, I see solar more as a supplemental power source rather than a base load source. Even if the electricity storage issue has been resolved, a rainy day or a cloudy day will affect consistent power output.

I would think geothermal is a little more predictable than one day trickle of steam, another day steam geyser. If Iceland can meet 50% of their energy needs via geothermal and The Geysers north of San Francisco can produce 1360MW, I think it's a very viable solution for the Big Isle.

The GEM vehicles are cool but they seem to be more like golf carts. I mean, do they even meet crash standards on public roadways?

[joshuatree]

Re: Ethanol....

Maybe we should harness all the energy expelled from those thousands of tread climbers, bow flexes, and tread mills that seem to be selling across the nation.

Imagine 24-Hour Fitness machines hooked up to generators providing some net metering for HECO.

If one could count the amount of calories burned during an evening at these fitness centers and harness it we may be onto something. Lose weight and lower two things: 1) your cholesterol and 2) your electric bill.

I remember reading somewhere a gym actually did that with their treadmills to help offset their power usage for lighting and AC.

[GnosticWarrior]

Re: Ethanol....

I prefer the best ideas. Ethanol is not even close to the best idea. Solar/wind generation with better storage technology would be better.

What do you think of Flying Electric Generators harnessing high altitude wind power? Then plug-in hybrids or EV's coupled with V2G technology? I think EV's are going to be the future and if Tesla's facts are right, the most energy efficient. I think their limited range should be less of a concern here in Hawaii.

[waioli kai]

Pandora's "solutions"

But that's the major difference in how nuclear power is approached in the US vs France. The French strongly believe in reprocessing spent nuclear fuel. In fact, 95% of spent nuclear fuel can be reprocessed and reused as fuel again. The estimate is that nuclear fuel can be reprocessed up to 60 times before it is no longer useful in a nuclear power plant. This is why the amount of actual nuclear waste coming out of France is little compared to the US. We basically store the waste in temporary ponds after one use while they recycle it many times over. French nuclear plants don't have the numerous ponds that our plants do. The logic is this, if you have a well secured plant, why not recycle the fuel to make the most of it, to reduce the actual amount of waste? Plutonium is produced, yes, but even the one-use nuclear rods in ponds are dangerous so you still need security. So why not just go all the way?

"So why not just go all the way?" That idea is certainly still on the table for those who hold open the possibility that the U.S. may or is in the not too distant future going to become greatly more fissile-nuclear power dependent. Until the time that there may be such a nuclear energy based society in the U.S. there is no economic incentive to reprocess uranium-based nuclear energy wastes for the extraction of plutonium needed for breeder reactors; likewise, there is little economic incentive to forever dispose of such wastes so long as they contain such a potentially recoverable and valuable energy resource like plutonium.

Certainly there are vast amounts nuclear wastes in the U.S. (that we created as well as collected from other nations) that is both absolutely dangerous and absolutely useless which must be properly disposed of for the duration of human existence.

I feel that, aside from nuclear weapons, with the advent of nuclear energy we have opened the lid to a Pandora box enough to see more possible horrors for mankind, for Life on Earth as we know it, than it is humanly possible for us to wrap our great minds around. Though we cannot truly comprehend the infinite absoluteness of the finality of Life, we are often too willing and eager to forego attaining such comprehension prior to doing things that have all the potential of leading all human life, when not as well all life on Earth, into an abyss in which Life will be greatly and irreparably altered, if not altogether extinguished on Earth. Not something to which any one of us wants wake up on an otherwise beautiful, early Spring morning thinking about.

[timkona]

Re: Ethanol....

http://money.aol.com/news/articles/_...22160709990014

U.S. production of ethanol, an alternative fuel that can be made with corn, has also pushed prices higher, prompting livestock owners to lobby Washington to roll back ethanol mandates.

Simple logic demands that anybody who claims intelligence must certainly be against ethanol as a fuel.

Imagine the cognitive dissonance that it takes for a person to actually think and believe this statement......

"Let's take food out of baby's mouths, and burn it in a fire."

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Ethanol....

U.S. production of ethanol, an alternative fuel that can be made with corn, has also pushed prices higher, prompting livestock owners to lobby Washington to roll back ethanol mandates.

Simple logic demands that anybody who claims intelligence must certainly be against ethanol as a fuel.

Imagine the cognitive dissonance that it takes for a person to actually think and believe this statement......

"Let's take food out of baby's mouths, and burn it in a fire."

Funny. Brazil produces enough sugarcane-based ethanol to be energy independent. And I haven't heard of any food shortage problems in that country. Neither have they experienced any shortage in sugar. As a matter of fact, Brazil has had sugar surpluses.

Stop believing all that oil industry propaganda.

[Composite 2992]

Re: Ethanol....

Some quick figures:

Hawaii used about 472.6 million gallons of gas in 2006.

Brazil produces ethanol from cane sugar at the rate of about 800 gallons per acre.

To produce half of the volume used by Hawaii, more than 295,000 acres would have to be devoted to cane sugar production.

Ethanol doesn't produce as much power as gasoline per gallon so that will have to be taken into account as well.

In the 1960s about 221,000 acres were devoted to sugar production, so it's not inconceivable to greatly reduce the amount of gas we would have to bring in, although it's very unlikely that we would be entirely free of our dependency on imported gas.

[timkona]

Re: Ethanol....

Show me a 100,000 acres, without a minimum wage law, and I will get started tomorrow on growing sugar cane in Hawaii.

I wonder what the minimum wage law says in Brazil? US$239 per month. I will gladly pay double that for a worker here in Hawaii, and I will throw in healthcare.

We admire Brazil for their ethanol from sugar cane mission, but we won't go so far as to try to mimic their success formula by changing any liberal sacred cow laws like minimum wage or environmental concern. The playing field is not level, and the folks who made it that way would sure like to see more alternative fuels in use in the US. Classic Cognitive Dissonance.

[Composite 2992]

Re: Ethanol....

One way to reduce cost is through mechanization. For example there's farm equipment guided by GPS which helps make the process of tilling, planting, fertilization and harvesting more efficient. This technology can be applied toward the cane industry.

The previous method of burn-and-harvest might change if the rest of the plant is considered valuable in producing methanol. Separating the stalk from the leaves might also become a mechanized process.

I'm not saying ethanol from cane should be the answer. Rather I'm thinking that it's something worth considering. Not only could it help reduce our dependency on shipped fuel, but it could help create a few jobs along the way, make our fallow fields productive and perhaps give our economy a needed boost.

There's other options open, too. With battery technology, such as nano-phosphate cells from A123 Systems, it's possible to make a practical all-electric car. There's a kit being developed (available by the end of this year) for the Toyota Prius that can make it a plug-in hybrid capapble of going about 40 miles on electricity alone. That could reduce gas use to almost zero for a lot of commuters.

Combine efficient mass transit with other modes of transportation (electric cars) and the amount of gas we use (or ethanol or biodiesel) can be greatly reduced.

There's almost always a solution to problems. But these often ingenious solutions can't be found when people start off by saying it can't be done.

[TuNnL]

Re: Ethanol....

Show me a 100,000 acres, without a minimum wage law, and I will get started tomorrow on growing sugar cane in Hawaii ... The playing field is not level

Be that as it may, Tim, sugar grower Gay & Robinson, one of two surviving sugar plantations in Hawai‘i, is moving full speed ahead with local ethanol production. They should be commended for their efforts.

Gay & Robinson is currently in the permitting stage for a 12-million-gallon-a-year biodiesel plant set to start production in 2009. The plant would create ethanol made from sugar juice and molasses. The company also has plans for a biomass boiler and turbine facility, both to power the ethanol plant and to sell to a local utility company.

[timkona]

Re: Ethanol....

I think that is excellent.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Ethanol....

In the 1960s about 221,000 acres were devoted to sugar production, so it's not inconceivable to greatly reduce the amount of gas we would have to bring in, although it's very unlikely that we would be entirely free of our dependency on imported gas.

Nobody's talking about local ethanol production making Hawaii energy self-sufficient. But anything that would reduce our dependence on imports helps.

And let me just say here that anyone who would demonize production of ethanol and other biofuels needs to wake up to reality. The world supply of fossil fuels won't last forever. The Saudis won't admit it, but the fact that they are only willing to boost production by modest amounts has people thinking that even their oil supply may finally, after 3 decades of being the world's leading exporter, be running out.

The future is in renewable fuels. And the sooner we come to grips with that, the easier we make it. Not only for ourselves, but for our children, grandchildren, and so forth.

[Composite 2992]

Re: Ethanol....

There's a lot of ag land laying fallow right now, and if that acreage can be turned into fuel then I'm all for it, whether it's with cane or switchgrass, or some other crop that's efficient.

Of course we can't be completely self-sustained. But there's a lot we can do to greatly reduce our dependency on shipped goods. Every little bit helps.

[TuNnL]

Re: Ethanol....

One way to reduce cost is through mechanization. For example there's farm equipment guided by GPS which helps make the process of tilling, planting, fertilization and harvesting more efficient. This technology can be applied toward the cane industry.

The previous method of burn-and-harvest might change if the rest of the plant is considered valuable in producing methanol. Separating the stalk from the leaves might also become a mechanized process.

I hope Gay & Robinson has incorporated this, considering the ethanol facility alone is costing them $40 million.