HawaiiThreads.com

HawaiiThreads.com (http://www.hawaiithreads.com/index.php)
-   Route 808 (http://www.hawaiithreads.com/forumdisplay.php?f=68)
-   -   Rail Transit (http://www.hawaiithreads.com/showthread.php?t=9570)

Rickyrab October 6th, 2005 11:03 PM

Rail Transit
 
What's up with that proposal?

Miulang October 7th, 2005 01:54 AM

Re: Light rail/ Busway in Honolulu?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rickyrab
What's up with that proposal?

It's in the study phase right now. The Mayor of Honolulu is in Japan looking at elevated trains as a solution rather than light rail. Of course, all the people with views will scream and holler if an elevated system is put in, but it would help reduce congestion at street level.

Maybe the whole thing will die if gas prices keep going up the way they have and people end up being more resourceful by carpooling, using the current public transportation system or telecommuting. A light rail system wouldn't be in place for years, even after the final plans are drawn up and approved.

Miulang

kimo55 October 7th, 2005 02:09 AM

Re: Light rail/ Busway in Honolulu?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Miulang
but it would help reduce congestion at street level.

ok let's say it does go in. We are quite congested now, of course. How can it re-DUCE congestion? We will be VERY congested by the time it comes in, as long as they continue allowing overdevelopment on our finite land mass of an island. And when the train/rail gets active, and more people move here and into the ever growing developments and condo popping up units allll over, cuz they WILL build them, cuz the rail system is in place to handle the growing masses... see the scenario?

i don't see how this is anything but a small bandaid. Unless they prevent the problem from growing anymore.

Miulang October 7th, 2005 12:19 PM

Re: Light rail/ Busway in Honolulu?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kimo55
ok let's say it does go in. We are quite congested now, of course. How can it re-DUCE congestion? We will be VERY congested by the time it comes in, as long as they continue allowing overdevelopment on our finite land mass of an island. And when the train/rail gets active, and more people move here and into the ever growing developments and condo popping up units allll over, cuz they WILL build them, cuz the rail system is in place to handle the growing masses... see the scenario?

i don't see how this is anything but a small bandaid. Unless they prevent the problem from growing anymore.

It would get some of the cars off the street that currently clog the roads if people used the system. I don't know of anywhere in this country that has actually tried to prevent development from happening (Oregon tried for a while, in a sort of tongue and cheek way). All you can do is try to slow it down through careful growth management. I don't think that's possible in Honolulu per se; "planned" communities like Kapolei have a little better chance of slowing growth down. But as I said, the problem might actually go away or at least be mitigated somewhat if people get akamai and start carpooling, using TheBus or having businesses allow for some telecommuting of employees, or giving office workers the option of flextime so they don't all start work at the same time or pau hana at the same time...all kinds of options already exist for those who are willing to use them.

The problem with fixed rail systems (whether light rail or elevated) is their routes may not be very convenient. So you'd probably still have to drive or walk someplace to catch the danged thing. What's killing the Seattle Monorail Project (besides the fact that it would have taken 40 years to finance a 13-mile line) is that the route itself wouldn't be very convenient for many people and there was no thought put in place about what to do with the cars that people would have to drive in order to get to a convenient station. The neighborhoods where the stations were planned to be erected were in a tizzy (my neighborhood included) because commuters would be forced to park on our streets and there's not enough parking for residents as it is. Fortunately for me, I have a garage so I don't park on the streets, but my part of town is the most densely populated in the city so finding on street parking is challenging on some blocks.

Miulang

Rickyrab October 7th, 2005 03:40 PM

Re: Light rail/ Busway in Honolulu?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kimo55
ok let's say it does go in. We are quite congested now, of course. How can it re-DUCE congestion? We will be VERY congested by the time it comes in, as long as they continue allowing overdevelopment on our finite land mass of an island. And when the train/rail gets active, and more people move here and into the ever growing developments and condo popping up units allll over, cuz they WILL build them, cuz the rail system is in place to handle the growing masses... see the scenario?

i don't see how this is anything but a small bandaid. Unless they prevent the problem from growing anymore.

New York City practically pioneered elevated trains, and they had a congestion problem even before some smart-aleck thought up either els or light rail. No, the congestion hasn't gone away. However, people are now able to bypass it by subway (which is like an elevated line, only underground rather than above the street; real-estate interests demanded that the els be demolished in Manhattan and got their wish); besides, having railways that dodge the traffic rather than sit in the traffic makes the traffic, well, dodgable. Furthermore, Oahu, being overdeveloped, is a good candidate for a better transit system because such a system will save time for more people than it would in, say, some large suburb such as Phoenix, AZ. Look at Hong Kong. It's overdeveloped. It has a good transit system. Look at London. That place is also overdeveloped, and its Underground is world famous. Same goes for Chicago and its El. The point: Yes, overdeveloped areas will have traffic jams. However, transit, while it won't solve the problem of congestion, will help people to more or less not worry as much about it.

kimo55 October 7th, 2005 03:45 PM

Re: Light rail/ Busway in Honolulu?
 
so the message is:
go ahead and overdevelop. everyone, look forward to overdevelopment. resign ourselves to the fate. Do not rant and protest about it. do not look for other solutions. do not work against the blind destruction, overpopulation and overdevelopment and rampant greed stimulating the destruction of our lands. This is what they do in other lands and on the mainland, so let's follow suit. Look at other big cities. We can be just like them.

Rickyrab October 7th, 2005 03:53 PM

Re: Light rail/ Busway in Honolulu?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kimo55
so the message is:
go ahead and overdevelop. everyone, look forward to overdevelopment. resign ourselves to the fate. Do not rant and protest about it. do not look for other solutions. do not work against the blind destruction, overpopulation and overdevelopment and rampant greed stimulating the destruction of our lands. This is what they do in other lands and on the mainland, so let's follow suit. Look at other big cities. We can be just like them.

Not necessarily. Even in Hong Kong, development generally stays off the mountains. This sort of thing works best in places with natural growth boundaries (NOT like Portland, Oregon, which is a wannabe at this game and keeps coming under pressure to expand its artificial "growth boundaries"). Manhattan has its Central Park; New Jersey has its farms (and a protective lobby eager to keep the farmlands farmlands). The point is not to overdevelop EVERYTHING. If growth happens, it ought to be channeled. The trouble with this is obvious: it would mean much of the Oahu coast could wind up looking like Waikiki. On the plus side, much of the interior and the highlands might stay green and pleasant... (shrugs)

kimo55 October 7th, 2005 03:59 PM

Re: Light rail/ Busway in Honolulu?
 
sounds either like a developer who talks with polititians too often, or a polititian who is in bed with developers.

Rickyrab October 7th, 2005 04:02 PM

Re: Light rail/ Busway in Honolulu?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kimo55
sounds either like a developer who talks with polititians too often, or a polititian who is in bed with developers.

^
|
|
|

LOL. I'm an urban planning student. Not that far from ideas promulgated by developers. But, all the same, when one is concerned with planning and with development, one winds up with developerish thoughts sometimes.

Miulang October 7th, 2005 06:11 PM

Re: Light rail/ Busway in Honolulu?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rickyrab
^
|
|
|

LOL. I'm an urban planning student. Not that far from ideas promulgated by developers. But, all the same, when one is concerned with planning and with development, one winds up with developerish thoughts sometimes.

In other words, at this point, you're dealing with theories, not practical matters. I think each city would have its unique strengths, weaknesses and opportunities and threats, and to proscribe a "one size fits all" solution will not work. If you lived and worked in Honolulu, you would see some unique things happening that wouldn't necessarily allow for the kinds of rapid transit systems that most urban planners would like to see. And some of it has nothing to do with geography. ;)

Portland and Seattle, as growing metropolises, are not wannabes; if anything, we want to control growth. But we continue to annex towns because we need the tax base and these little enclaves need basic services, so it ends up being a win-win situation for the most part. We still have room to expand up here; Hawai'i, unfortunately, has a finite space (except for the Big Island) and is constrained by things like being at sea level (making excavation for any type of transportation system below ground level costly and problemmatical).

Miulang

kimo55 October 7th, 2005 06:44 PM

Re: Light rail/ Busway in Honolulu?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rickyrab
in Hong Kong, development generally stays off the mountains.

Manhattan has its Central Park; New Jersey has its farms (and a protective lobby eager to keep the farmlands farmlands). The point is not to overdevelop EVERYTHING.

On the plus side, much of the interior and the highlands might stay green and pleasant...



people unclear on the concept...
developers and polititians redevelopmentality and justifications. the continued attempting of the brainwashing of the proletariat continues.

So; we should develop as much as we can , but don't touch Diamond head. leave a few parks and mountains untouched.
Look. NOW. RIGHT now;
the landfills are overtaxed.
We must conserve water. we are forced to do with less water cuz people say we should not prevent development and stop people from coming here. Gridlock is at critical mass. Emergency vehicles can not pass thru our hiways and byways.
We are now experiencing "big city problems".
to quote the hackneyed but appropriate phrase " desparate times require desparate measures."
we cannot continue allowing the paving over of every empty lot or "unserused" land for the supposed "highest and best use", resulting in more condo towers, more masses of people and their cars.
You want to think that way, keep yer urban planning on the east coast.

FreaknHaole October 7th, 2005 10:30 PM

Re: Light rail/ Busway in Honolulu?
 
When the Asian Chicken Flu kills off half the island because FEMA is sitting on its thumbs, traffic will be reduced.

Seriously, rail, even light rail, works best where the trains can travel some distance and they have a right-of-way. The rail system, in ergs per transport mile, is efficient under those circumstances. Not in short-distance, stop-and-go systems. The reason trains stopped being efficient as travel is because the country got a more complicated traffic infrastructure and trains became inefficient. Something goes wrong with a train, and the whole system goes down. Something goes wrong with a bus, and it's just pushed out of the way.

What would work best for a relatively small area like Oahu is a dedicated busway or an elevated/combo/underground busway, one that can keep pace with changes in transport technology like hydrogen-powered busses!

Rickyrab October 13th, 2005 02:18 PM

Re: Light rail/ Busway in Honolulu?
 
Since last I wrote, I've read up on land politics in Hawaii. I notice that large land-owners have a history of tying up most of the land in Hawai'i for themselves (the Big Five, which was probably James Michiner's "Fort", comes to mind), and that they kept up the price of land by refusing to give away very much of it at any given time. Later, they apparently had to develop the land due to taxation (some stuff in those laws gave, as reasons, stuff about "serving the public" and "highest and best use of the land"), this being seen as preferable by the government in early statehood to simply breaking up the estates (possibly due to landowner muddling, possibly due to constitutional issues) or letting the status quo remain. Owners thus leased the land so they could make money off of others' developing their land, while keeping their land. Within more recent years, complaints about this method of land development led to laws (or were those court rulings?) saying landlords had to convert at least some of those leases to fee-simple sales. Yet the cost of land in Hawai'i still remains exorbitant, and one wonders why. That high cost of land could be an impediment in building a transit line, but it might also cause development to occur - some of which could be unwanted development.

In my opinion, interesting stuff.

Miulang October 13th, 2005 02:45 PM

Re: Light rail/ Busway in Honolulu?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rickyrab
Yet the cost of land in Hawai'i still remains exorbitant, and one wonders why. That high cost of land could be an impediment in building a transit line, but it might also cause development to occur - some of which could be unwanted development.

Have you taken any courses in microeconomics? Ever heard of "allocation of scarce resources?" Land in Hawai'i is finite, except for the Big Island, which thanks to Madam Pele, continues to grow slowly. Any land available fee simple is scarce (as you have discovered). So when a resource is limited, the bidding price will always be high.

Miulang

Rickyrab October 13th, 2005 02:54 PM

Re: Light rail/ Busway in Honolulu?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Miulang
Have you taken any courses in microeconomics? Ever heard of "allocation of scarce resources?" Land in Hawai'i is finite, except for the Big Island, which thanks to Madam Pele, continues to grow slowly. Any land available fee simple is scarce (as you have discovered). So when a resource is limited, the bidding price will always be high.

Miulang

Yes, I have taken econ courses; I know about supply, demand, inflation, etc. I also know that land in Hawai'i will be expensive if there is a lot of demand for it. However, I also know that restricting land supply to oneself will make it even more expensive. As for the Big Island and Madame Pele, well, her land is kinda hard to farm or develop on, given that it is thousands of degrees Celsius in some places. However, it SHOULD become useful in due time....

I've also heard of Loihi. Unfortunately, Loihi is nowhere near being above water, let alone a substantial island. (You didn't say anything about Loihi, but I saw some documentary about "Violent Hawaii", which mentioned volcanos and some big surfing wave called "Jaws", and Loihi popped up in there, naturally. The documentary also noted that land can be LOST in Hawaii as well; some of the cliffs in Oahu and Molokai were formed by huge landslides, or so it seems.)

craigwatanabe June 23rd, 2006 05:57 PM

mass transit renderings
 
Okay I saw the renderings of what the rail would look like thru University. Frankly I think the cement overpass looks nice compared to the urbanized look of without. At least there will be some shade with the overpass. Maybe they can incorporate the utility lines into the design and get rid of those really ugly power/cable/telephone lines and poles and perhaps install the street lighting underneath.

But the second set of pictures showing the Aloha Tower marketplace shows the same before and after shots as the "before" by their description you can't tell the difference :D

http://starbulletin.com/2006/06/23/news/story02.html

I think the design is nice with the sculpted look. Kinda gives Moilili a 21st century look to it. It'll look even more at home once the graphitti artists figure out a way to climb to the underpinnings of the cement guides

pzarquon June 23rd, 2006 06:04 PM

Re: mass transit renderings
 
Seing the flyover and the huge supports can be jarring... but that's what an elevated rail system looks like. I think they're honest and realistic, but to be sure they'll stop a few folks dead in their tracks (no pun intended... at least not initially). Various tricks could be used to make them look more pretty, but I'm glad the renderings were mostly straightforward.

Quote:

Originally Posted by craigwatanabe
But the second set of pictures showing the Aloha Tower marketplace shows the same before and after shots as the "before" by their description you can't tell the difference

Well, that's the one sneaky one. If you look closely, the elevated rail is visible through the trees. Why they'd pick that angle for a rendering makes no sense... except that it was probably easy to create and proves that you might not see too much concrete from Chai's!

Will the intersection of University and Beretania be significantly transformed by the rail line? Yes, but in many, many ways beyond the view -- for both better and worse.

An elevated rail along Kamehameha Highway in Aiea or over Nimitz near downtown won't be pretty... but the H-1 airport viaduct and Moanalua Freeway through Makiki ain't pretty either. I'd take an elevated rail over a six-lane interstate, that's for darn sure.

And as some have noted, several of the areas through which the line is proposed to run aren't exactly urban design showcases, anyway. A rail line and rail stations, well planned, can actually be part of the impetus to improve and develop districts (primarily industrial and commercial) that have, until now, basically been left to decay.

LikaNui June 23rd, 2006 07:31 PM

Re: mass transit renderings
 
They're saying it'll cost three billion dollars just to do Kapolei to Honolulu.
:eek:
We need to stop this insanity. Instead, spend the money on infrastructure like, oh, you know, maybe sewer lines?! And repair the schools that are falling apart.
Ya think?

craigwatanabe June 23rd, 2006 08:33 PM

Re: mass transit renderings
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LikaNui
They're saying it'll cost three billion dollars just to do Kapolei to Honolulu.
:eek:
We need to stop this insanity. Instead, spend the money on infrastructure like, oh, you know, maybe sewer lines?! And repair the schools that are falling apart.
Ya think?


Don't make me think...Today was a dangerous example when you give someone the opportunity to exercise his noggin.

But since you asked :rolleyes: Three BILLION dollars (picks teeth with pinky) man that's a lot of transit taxes for you folks on Oahu. Someone should do a survey and see just how many people that segment will accomodate and divide it into the three BILLION (pinky still in teeth) dollars and see if it's viable enough. Something tells me that for the amount per person this rail will be handling, you could probably buy each one of those potential riders a new car and let them drive themselves to work cheaper.

helen June 23rd, 2006 10:20 PM

Re: mass transit renderings
 
Doing any sort of mass transit on Oahu is a kin to shooting yourself in the foot, only question is which foot do you shoot and there is the possibilty that you might hit some other piece of your leg (like the knee).

A raised rail line is way better than having a rail line on the ground level but that means that the stations need elevators to be ADA compliant, that itself is going to add staff to make sure that is in working working.

dick June 23rd, 2006 11:02 PM

Re: mass transit renderings
 
So what else are we supposed to do?

Rail is long overdue here in Honolulu. We'd better get started on this now, rather than later.

I don't see the freakouts about all the ugly buildings sprouting up all over Honolulu... this elevated rail line is being made out to be the most horrific thing to grace the skyline. I can think of many others.

It's time to grow up and realize it's going to take money and a sacrifice of a little blue sky to help with the crazy traffic situation on this island.

adrian June 23rd, 2006 11:42 PM

Re: mass transit renderings
 
I really hoped that someone who has Sim City 4: Rush Hour made a mock city of Honolulu and tried to see the result of this. :D

Like I said in another forum, we need to control the population unless we want the island to sink.

damontucker June 24th, 2006 12:02 AM

Re: mass transit renderings
 
3 billion!!!

I dunno... I guess I gotta bite the bullet!

It's current route and proposal makes it useless in my career :eek: or for that matter current driving patterns that I make.

Creative-1 June 24th, 2006 05:32 PM

Re: mass transit renderings
 
Three billion??? That doesn't include buying the land for stations and rights of way, or even the costs of the trains.

And, come on...what large public works project has EVER come in on time and budget????

This will easily top $4.5 Billion. It will require permanently raising the general excise tax to 5-6%. the 4.25% was just a foot in the door, and they knew it from the beginning.

Our 4% GET is already equal to an 12% sales tax (due to pyramiding). Paying for transit will raise it to about 20%.

If the GET was an honest tax (with nothing hidden in the shelf price) the public would never approve it.

Bob Sigall

Pomai June 24th, 2006 05:56 PM

Re: mass transit renderings
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Creative-1
This will easily top $4.5 Billion. It will require permanently raising the general excise tax to 5-6%. the 4.25% was just a foot in the door, and they knew it from the beginning.

Our 4% GET is already equal to an 12% sales tax (due to pyramiding). Paying for transit will raise it to about 20%.

Was it Mayor Hanneman who recently proposed raising the GET this year to 4.5%? As if THAT would even make a dent in $4.5 Bijilliroonz.

"takes toothpick out of mouth now to sigh*

Just don't run that rail here in Hawaii Kai. Waste $$$. Most of the affluent folks here (me not included) will still drive their own car to work.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:10 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.