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  • Women in a man's world - What are your views?

    This is a topic I have not seen touched on and I would truely like get an opinion on. Many of us are from different cultures, many of which historically do not treat women very well. Of course, on the surface, we say we have made great strides. I am very lucky in that I come from a long line of very strong (emotionally), highly educated women. It wasn't until I was in college that the idea of men and women being equal might not be the norm in many homes.

    I saw a news story today where an organization has made a safe haven for arab women in the West Bank. In those countries women still do not have any rights at all. It got me to thinking about some women even in this country do not believe they have any rights. I know of one woman personally who is living a life of abuse. No matter what I say to her, she still believes her life is with her husband and ultimately must do as he says. This is not someone who comes from some 3rd world country. Nor is she from a culture that would have instilled this idea in her. She does lack education and will never get one. It is a very rough situation for me. I have to watch what I say. If I push to hard, she will have no one to talk to. I have gained her trust enough that she will call me just to talk it out when the drunken SOB is passed out. But what do you say? If she tries to leave he threatens her life. Cops have been brought in way too many times. I am godmother to her three boys and she has taken legal steps to insure that my husband and I get the boys should the unthinkable happen. I feel very helpless in this situation. All I feel I can do is to be there for her to listen. I rarely see her in person. But I know I am the only person she has to talk to. So, I listen.

    I honestly didn't mean to dump all this on you. It kind of came out as I started writing. My real aim is to start a conversation on women existing in a man's world despite the so called great strides we have made. I am really interested in your thoughts on these issues (both men and women). Correct me if I am wrong (and I know you will - I count on it) but weren't women treated very poorly in early Hawaiian culture? Has it changed much? Of course I realize that education is everything. But what about those who have not had that opportunity?

  • #2
    Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

    Originally posted by acousticlady View Post
    This is a topic I have not seen touched on and I would truely like get an opinion on. Many of us are from different cultures, many of which historically do not treat women very well. Of course, on the surface, we say we have made great strides. I am very lucky in that I come from a long line of very strong (emotionally), highly educated women. It wasn't until I was in college that the idea of men and women being equal might not be the norm in many homes.

    I saw a news story today where an organization has made a safe haven for arab women in the West Bank. In those countries women still do not have any rights at all. It got me to thinking about some women even in this country do not believe they have any rights. I know of one woman personally who is living a life of abuse. No matter what I say to her, she still believes her life is with her husband and ultimately must do as he says. This is not someone who comes from some 3rd world country. Nor is she from a culture that would have instilled this idea in her. She does lack education and will never get one. It is a very rough situation for me. I have to watch what I say. If I push to hard, she will have no one to talk to. I have gained her trust enough that she will call me just to talk it out when the drunken SOB is passed out. But what do you say? If she tries to leave he threatens her life. Cops have been brought in way too many times. I am godmother to her three boys and she has taken legal steps to insure that my husband and I get the boys should the unthinkable happen. I feel very helpless in this situation. All I feel I can do is to be there for her to listen. I rarely see her in person. But I know I am the only person she has to talk to. So, I listen.

    I honestly didn't mean to dump all this on you. It kind of came out as I started writing. My real aim is to start a conversation on women existing in a man's world despite the so called great strides we have made. I am really interested in your thoughts on these issues (both men and women). Correct me if I am wrong (and I know you will - I count on it) but weren't women treated very poorly in early Hawaiian culture? Has it changed much? Of course I realize that education is everything. But what about those who have not had that opportunity?
    Wow. That's just awful. Thank you for being the shoulder to cry on for your friend. It's more awful to be in a domestic abuse situation in Hawai'i than on CONUS because to get away from the abuser, you can't just hop in the car and "disappear" to another town or State. Everybody kinda knows everybody else's business too, which also makes it hard.

    I'll let others on HT express their opinions on the early kanaka maoli kane treatment of their wahine. I do know that ancient Hawai'i had many powerful women rulers and "women behind the men".

    If you or your friend need emergency help, please contact the Maui Peace Center if you haven't already. They can give you and your friend advice on next steps. It's not OK for anyone to have to live in an abusive situation (man or woman), because if an adult in this kind of relationship is getting abused (it doesn't have to be physical abuse, it can be mental abuse too), the kids in the family will suffer eventually, too.

    Malama pono,
    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

      Originally posted by Miulang View Post
      if an adult in this kind of relationship is getting abused (it doesn't have to be physical abuse, it can be mental abuse too), the kids in the family will suffer eventually, too.

      Malama pono,
      Miulang
      Unfortunately, this particular situation has been going on for 16 yrs. I have gone through all the emotions. She doesn't really want to help herself. My husband and I have chosen to be a part of the kid's lives in the hope that, just maybe, they will see that there are other kinds of relationships out there. We have probably been more involved in their lives than in the lives of their mother and father. The oldest has begun acting out - I fear he will go the route of dad and have told him so. He has always been very vocal about not wanting to be anything like his father. And yet, I see it happening.

      In general, this is a very difficult subject for people to talk about. I hope we can get a discussion going. It is only by talking about it openly that real change can begin. Too many of us know someone who knows someone.....

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

        I am confused here. Is the point of this discussion domestic violence? You asked a broad question in the title and a few more at the end, but it is pretty clear that your heart on the matter is focused on someone who isn't living a life you would recommend. Unfortunately, I cannot reconcile the two very different topics. I don't know how to answer you; I don't understand what it is you are asking here.

        pax

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

          Originally posted by Pua'i Mana'o View Post
          I am confused here. Is the point of this discussion domestic violence? You asked a broad question in the title and a few more at the end, but it is pretty clear that your heart on the matter is focused on someone who isn't living a life you would recommend. Unfortunately, I cannot reconcile the two very different topics. I don't know how to answer you; I don't understand what it is you are asking here.
          Sorry about that. I really wanted the broader discussion. I started talking about that person as an example of how, on the surface we talk about what great strides have been made, but underneath that surface very little has changed for a lot of women. Domestic violence being only one example. I then responded to Miulang's response. Sometimes what is in my head doesn't come across in writing as clearly.

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          • #6
            Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

            If you're talking about your friend, I don't know what to suggest. I think you're practicing what I do - in that it's really her decision. There's nothing you can do to force the issue. At best you can take the opportunity when it arises to ask questions, to guide her in looking at her options and help her to see that she can have something better.

            As for society in general - perhaps a lesson added to the "health" class in grade school? That's about where you'd have to start when girls are just staring to explore relationships and what works and what doesn't for them. And quite possibly where they start some kind of cycle of "I deserve this/I can't get anything better then this."

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

              Acousticlady, you have chosen a very difficult path, and I applaud you on that choice. It is great that you have discovered that if you push too hard your friend will pull away from you. It’s important to maintain contact with her.

              There are questions that come to mind such as is the guy only abusive when drunk? If so then it may be mostly an alcohol problem. There is an organization called Al-anon I think that helps people that live with alcoholics. I suggest you contact them. It might be easiest to contact Alcoholics anonymous and talk to them. I’m sure they can steer you in the right direction even if it is not an alcohol problem. It is a very tough path you are walking and it helps to have people that have been down that road to advise you.

              There is also an organization that I see marching every time a woman dies because of an abusive husband or boyfriend. I can’t think of their name right now. But they might be helpful too.

              Keep in mind that all you can do is throw her a rope. If she chooses not to grab hold of the rope to be pulled to safety there is nothing more you can do and you should not blame yourself if the worst happens.
              "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them. Leave them alone."
              Ayn Rand

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

                How many abusive men have no mothers? Women need to take some responsibility in these cycles. Stop blaming men for your lack of self-esteem.
                “First we fought the preliminary round for the k***s and now we’re gonna fight the main event for the n*****s."
                http://hollywoodbitchslap.com/review...=416&printer=1

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

                  Well..what a heavy subject in this day and time! It is fast becoming a woman'w world, too. Women deserve to be paid wages equal to a man if and when they do the same job and as fine a job as a man would've, etc, of course.

                  I have to admit the truth of my views. IF.....we lived in a true paradise on earth, and men weren't oinking for pleasures and weren't like the crap we see on tv sitcoms, no not all men, generalizing to say the least, if, in my personal vew....men were honorable, noble, patient, kind but firm, if most women could truly respect most men, holding them up almost as our own consciences, even......yeah right, I speak of a dream, of how God intended it, in my opinion.....then the bible's instructions could truly be adhered to.

                  New paragraph only for ease of reading...if men were that fantastic and honorable, then it could be as bible says it should be....which is...

                  God over man, man over woman, and woman over the children. However, it ain't nuttin like that, and so thank goodness women have taken the lead in so many things. No woman needs a man as boss if she in all honesty has her own conscience as boss and does her best to obey. However...my bible was written in antiquity and neither sex is better than the other when it comes to being a shining example of right and wrong, so....

                  I don't believe it's really a man's world anymore and rightly so.
                  Stop being lost in thought where our problems thrive.~

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    weren't women treated very poorly in early Hawaiian culture? Has it changed much?
                    AL, is your friend Hawaiian? Is she not, but married to one? Is that why you ask the question?

                    I will tell you what I saw, in that I've had the privilege to see three generations of Hawaiian women above me. I knew one of my great-grandmothers and great-grandfathers (they were married), both grandmothers and grandfathers and my parents. My ggrandmother was tough as nails--she died when I was 15 and her husband followed within a few months. They lived their whole lives in a fishing village. Their daughter who raised me was equally tough, outspoken, self-educated and stern in her views, be they about motherhood, Hawaiian rights, kuleana, God, expectations for us. I know that those two women, in their early years of marriage to their husbands (that means my ggrandfather and grandfather), there was domestic violence. I know it subsided as time went on. I know that those two women got stronger as the years went by. With my own parents, there was no physical violence but the battles waged nonetheless. And time softened their temperaments, too.

                    I am reluctant to lump them into the category of "spousal abusive relationships" because that doesn't capture the essence of who they were/are, and the people they evolved into. Every male I mentioned above had great respect for their wives--I witnessed it many times with my own eyes. I heard story after story of what each did to the other. I never saw self-pity for one's fate, unless talking about how hard it was to live in the T.H., economic hard times, other personal things. With my grandmother, nobody could grumble about my grandfather to her; she defended him until he died and seemed to understand what made that man tick.

                    I see this in my own marriage to a Hawaiian man. Our battles are fierce. Neither one is a push-over. Yet I have had well-intentioned friends who wondered why I will not <insert Maury Povich-speak here>. But I am comfortable in my life, and comfortable that wherever our battles takes us, I know that we will pull through. We always do. I do not fear him. I respect him. And ditto, even when he is a pain in my @ss. But I would not change this. I know that if I ever cried "help!" he would be there to help me. Lucky for him, he didn't marry a woman who cries for help.

                    Originally posted by Karen View Post
                    Well..what a heavy subject in this day and time! It is fast becoming a woman'w world, too. Women deserve to be paid wages equal to a man if and when they do the same job and as fine a job as a man would've, etc, of course.

                    I have to admit the truth of my views. IF.....we lived in a true paradise on earth, and men weren't oinking for pleasures and weren't like the crap we see on tv sitcoms, no not all men, generalizing to say the least, if, in my personal vew....men were honorable, noble, patient, kind but firm, if most women could truly respect most men, holding them up almost as our own consciences, even......yeah right, I speak of a dream, of how God intended it, in my opinion.....then the bible's instructions could truly be adhered to.

                    New paragraph only for ease of reading...if men were that fantastic and honorable, then it could be as bible says it should be....which is...

                    God over man, man over woman, and woman over the children. However, it ain't nuttin like that, and so thank goodness women have taken the lead in so many things. No woman needs a man as boss if she in all honesty has her own conscience as boss and does her best to obey. However...my bible was written in antiquity and neither sex is better than the other when it comes to being a shining example of right and wrong, so....

                    I don't believe it's really a man's world anymore and rightly so.
                    uhh...

                    I think feminism has taken a sucker punch and it pisses me off that its greatest ideals and practices are now relegated to "fringe lesbian planned parenthood whackos" (that's the press release, anyway) and that not enough of us middle class soccer moms are doing enough to champion the efforts that our own mothers and fathers fought for 2-3 decades ago.

                    How many women proudly say that we are feminists? On the internet, I have seen the opposite as a disingenuous qualifier prior to waxing poetic about something, and it pisses me off. How many understand what feminism is? What its roots are? How many women take for granted that the vote has been legal to us ovarian-Americans for <100yrs? Or that we may maintain property in our name? Own our own businesses? Keep our own children? Control our own fertility? Not be consigned to a payscale specific to our gender? (that was legal up until the 1960's. btw).

                    I have children of both genders. I want strength and the fullness of free will available to both. Likewise, I wish them the just weight of accountabilty for their actions and options, and neither being held up because of said gender.

                    pax

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

                      Guess the way we see it is strongly affected by who we know and what our own lives are like. I'm doing exactly what I want to do at this time, and both of my sisters are, too. I know a ton of women that are making good salaries and the married ones all, LOL...control the finances in their/our marriages, by control I mean there is no higher authority, it's a team but we women conduct all of the financial and otherwise business.

                      I don't have to say...I am a feminist, just keep speaking up about everything that affects me, being a kitchen table lobbyist, etc. however, even I don't want a woman president, so figure that one out.
                      Stop being lost in thought where our problems thrive.~

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

                        I want a competent leader, but would never think, much less say that I DON'T want a female president. So no, I cannot figure that one out.

                        pax

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

                          How much maternity leave do you suppose a female President could take?
                          “First we fought the preliminary round for the k***s and now we’re gonna fight the main event for the n*****s."
                          http://hollywoodbitchslap.com/review...=416&printer=1

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Women in a man's world - What are your views?

                            lessee....how much time off does the Prez normally take per year? =D

                            As far as I know, no woman who is in the running is in her childbearing years, although I believe there is some precedence set by the fed govt as the President is a federal employee.

                            pax

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by sinjin View Post
                              How many abusive men have no mothers? Women need to take some responsibility in these cycles. Stop blaming men for your lack of self-esteem.
                              You know, you are absolutely right. It is a double-edged sword. Personally, I have no problem with my own self-esteem (maybe having too much - ha,ha). But I agree that it is partly the responsibility of the mothers to instill that same self-esteem in their sons and to instill a respect for women in them as well. I have made sure that I did that with my own son and I see it in the way he treats women. I am very proud of the person he has become.

                              I glad you brought up the issue of self-esteem. I think that this has a whole lot to do with it. If someone does not have a healthy self-esteem, very often they will try to bolster that by taking it out on others.

                              Originally posted by Pua'i Mana'o
                              uhh...

                              I think feminism has taken a sucker punch and it pisses me off that its greatest ideals and practices are now relegated to "fringe lesbian planned parenthood whackos" (that's the press release, anyway) and that not enough of us middle class soccer moms are doing enough to champion the efforts that our own mothers and fathers fought for 2-3 decades ago.

                              How many women proudly say that we are feminists? On the internet, I have seen the opposite as a disingenuous qualifier prior to waxing poetic about something, and it pisses me off. How many understand what feminism is? What its roots are? How many women take for granted that the vote has been legal to us ovarian-Americans for <100yrs? Or that we may maintain property in our name? Own our own businesses? Keep our own children? Control our own fertility? Not be consigned to a payscale specific to our gender? (that was legal up until the 1960's. btw).

                              I have children of both genders. I want strength and the fullness of free will available to both. Likewise, I wish them the just weight of accountabilty for their actions and options, and neither being held up because of said gender.
                              Yeah! You are absolutely correct in that the image of feminism has severely taken a beating . Many, many women are afraid to call themselves feminists for fear that they will be percieved as lesbians. Even in my school where liberalism and feminism rule. I see PhDs who are afraid to call themselves feminists. Though I believe it is the term "feminist" and not the idea.

                              You mention voting and property rights having been legal for less than 100 yrs. I am very proud to say that my grandmother (one of the first women biologists) was a staunch supporter and helped paved the way - as was my grandfather. My great-grandmother was one of the leading ladies in this cause!

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